The Cal-look Lounge
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
February 22, 2020, 16:43:56 pm

Login with username, password and session length
Thank you for your support!
Search:     Advanced search
343920 Posts in 27416 Topics by 6417 Members
Latest Member: r0ch3lle29
* Home This Year's European Top 20 lists All Time European Top 20 lists Search Login Register
+  The Cal-look Lounge
|-+  Cal-look/High Performance
| |-+  Cal-look
| | |-+  Deano/NPR 92's
« previous next »
Pages: [1] 2 Print
Author Topic: Deano/NPR 92's  (Read 9797 times)
Fritter
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 625



« on: January 04, 2011, 04:34:04 am »

Let's hear some stories about the Brawn to Saurus 92s. Were they considered a boom or a bust?  Were the alleged problems due to design or bad construction?  Did DDS sell a lot of the kits?
Logged

Mike F.
'64 Indigo Blue sunroof Bug
deano
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1850



WWW
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2011, 07:35:05 am »

There was really two strong camps during the early '70s; those who used 92s and those who used 88s. Berg and Empi were obviously in the 88mm camp, while Lowrys were over on the other side of the tracks.... Problems with the early 92s were common, due to many reasons including case-related. Some tried to bore a 40hp case out for 92s, and ran into problems. Others like me, tried to use them with a beat up old "H" case and soon, saw cracks. If you used too large of case savers, you saw cracks, but off-setting them helped. Others did see oil burning, smoking (broken rings) and cylinder distortions. But we were all learning as we went along. Yes, 92s did improve as time went on, but going to a Biral cylinder certainly was not a better idea... For me, going to an 1835cc from a mild 1600cc was a major step in power. And again, on my buggy, going from a 1900cc up to a 2074 was a huge step in torque. I think Sarge was the one that got me to go to 92s early on, about 1972ish. Painting the valve covers and generator backing plate purple was my idea, not his. Sarge often called Deano's the "Lizard Factory". Love that one. Ron called DDS, once Ken took over, "Keno's Keanos". (Ken Lowry really laughted when I told him that last year). Lowry told me they sold the crap out of 92s, and that's why NPR began to sell them out the back door...
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 07:38:06 am by deano » Logged

Hot VWs Magazine Window Washer
Anglia Obsolete Guru
'67 Heaven
Bruce
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1384


« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2011, 09:39:56 am »

.... but going to a Biral cylinder certainly was not a better idea...
What's the story there, Dean?
Logged
deano
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1850



WWW
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2011, 15:22:13 pm »

.... but going to a Biral cylinder certainly was not a better idea...
What's the story there, Dean?

From what I recall, and again, it's been 30+ years......, when these cylinder options came out from NPR, everyone figured that  new design fins would help the distortion issues, only problem was, for some reason, it only made it worse. The machine shops and engine builders I knew all switched to them in off-road and hi-po street, and very quickly, the blow-by and ring leakage was huge! Checking bore wear only confirmed the cylinders would not keep their shape (round), after a short time (not thousands of miles mind you). You would run a hone through a short-time Biral 92 cylinder and see the four stud lines in the cylinder wall..... It got so bad that it didn't take long for these Biral 92s got a real bad name, and many switched back to the cast iron liners. Not sure if the ISS brand had them or not... During the late '70s, these were sitting on the shelf and got a bad name by many. But I am sure some tuners liked them and had no issues (perhaps alcohol midget motors), as the T-1 Biral Empi 88s were certainly the best bang for the buck for high rpm racing. Some of the Auto Haus geeks, who worked counter sales, might chime in to what issues they had in selling them... Bruce, I know you like Biral cylinders, but these were not the best deal around...
Logged

Hot VWs Magazine Window Washer
Anglia Obsolete Guru
'67 Heaven
speedwell
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 14629


the archivist


WWW
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2011, 15:41:54 pm »

so if i understand well ,  i can sell my NPR 92  Cry , those are NOS my  plan was to use them on my future street engine 74x92 , but after reading that ,  i will not use them   Cry
Logged

http://speedwell55.skynetblogs.be/
oldspeed 61 standard empi/speedwell
deano
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1850



WWW
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2011, 15:59:28 pm »

so if i understand well ,  i can sell my NPR 92  Cry , those are NOS my  plan was to use them on my future street engine 74x92 , but after reading that ,  i will not use them   Cry

No, that's not what I said about NPRs in general, only the aluminum fin cylinders (Biral) ones were the issue. Your 40hp (pin) ones were never that popular, but if you can use them, do it! Lowry told me that it was Joe Horvath (Revmaster)  that wanted the 40hp ones for future aircraft use, but never really wanted them in any kind of quanity.
Logged

Hot VWs Magazine Window Washer
Anglia Obsolete Guru
'67 Heaven
speedwell
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 14629


the archivist


WWW
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2011, 16:22:14 pm »

mine are cast iron , no problem running them on the street Huh i would like to have something around 130hp with the engine i would like to buld , but after asking several persons ,they told me that those will not keep their shape (round) as you said above
can you light me
thx
Logged

http://speedwell55.skynetblogs.be/
oldspeed 61 standard empi/speedwell
deano
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1850



WWW
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2011, 16:43:16 pm »

mine are cast iron , no problem running them on the street Huh i would like to have something around 130hp with the engine i would like to buld , but after asking several persons ,they told me that those will not keep their shape (round) as you said above
can you light me
thx

The only issue I see is that you have to use a 40hp rod (pin size) to use those cylinders and pistons.... Are you aware of that? 40hp (1200) and 50hp (1600) wrist pins are different.
Logged

Hot VWs Magazine Window Washer
Anglia Obsolete Guru
'67 Heaven
Fastbrit
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 4659


Keep smiling...


« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2011, 18:04:27 pm »

mine are cast iron , no problem running them on the street Huh i would like to have something around 130hp with the engine i would like to buld , but after asking several persons ,they told me that those will not keep their shape (round) as you said above
can you light me
thx
Fabs, listen to Dean! I ran 92s (Cima/Mahle) on my Bus for several thousands of miles, towing my racecar and trailer. Never any problem. Look after the cooling and you'll be fine.
Logged

Der Kleiner Panzers VW Club    
So it took some guy 17 years to run 0.31secs quicker and he boasts about it? A case of All Talk and...
johnl
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1533



« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2011, 19:30:00 pm »

Some of the Auto Haus geeks, who worked counter sales, might chime in to what issues they had in selling them...
Old head geek here... Grin Grin Grin  I remember my time behind the counter and overseeing the stores as GM.  We sold lots of NPR 92's over the KS or Mahle 88's.  Some of the reasons I think were (1) cost as the 88's were more money and (2) everyone knew that larger displacement was MORE POWER...

Another bore size back then was the bolt on 87mm, but they had somewhat of the same press as 92's did in that the cylinder wall was to thin and distoration began almost immediately after put into use.  Seems to me that the 87's were also an NPR product back then.

There were definitely two camps and I personally never had a set of 92's as I was afraid of loosing a case due to a crack.  Remember, back in those days most all of the street cars ran higher compression than that of today, thus more head and more stress not to mention that we drove like maniacs back in the day.

Devcon was a big deal at F&A and then FAT back then.  The theory was after machining the case the area behind #3 became weak and was prone to cracking.  Devcon was suppose to help this problem and it may have.  I know my 78.4x88 Okrasa motor had such and I never had issues.

Technology has move on and back then an 1835 was considered somewhat of a "big motor" and today it is "peanuts" size Cool Cool
Logged

Volkswagens Limited, DKP I
Celebrating 56 years of Volkswagens in my life 1963-2019

Life is a learning experience and then you die but when you do you've lived a good life if you contributed to your fellow man.
Fritter
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 625



« Reply #10 on: January 05, 2011, 00:11:21 am »

Good shtuff.  Here's some more questions/comments:

1.  Did just DDS sell the NPR 92's, or did other companies sell them, or did just DDS sell them at first and then NPR stepped on them and started selling them themselves?  I thought the NPR 92 was a DDS design, did they have a patent on them?  It seems like not.

2.  Were the first NPR's a totally cast iron jug like a stock VW jug?  And with a cast AL piston just like a stock VW piston?

3.  Birals were the hot ticket in the 911 world for heat dissipation and seem to work well.  I guess the execution on the NPR's left a lot to be desired.....

4.  I wonder if any of the DDS/NPR 92 engines still are running around anywhere....anyone know of any?

5.  I wonder if the "92's are crap" general consensus is based in truth, or based on people just not installing them correctly or not making sure they were cooled correctly. 

6.  John Lazenby, what was the general opinion of DDS parts from a GM's perspective?  What was the pecking order of the part brand names that were sold back then? 

Food for thought.   Grin
Logged

Mike F.
'64 Indigo Blue sunroof Bug
marc1951
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 282



WWW
« Reply #11 on: January 05, 2011, 02:21:59 am »

I was running a Corvair motor in my bug and Dean helped me with my Porsche trans (got a set of hand made trans mounts from him that I believe were once on the Inch Pincher. He kept trying to talk me out of the Corvair and when they got their first batch of 92s, i gave in and bought a set (I think I paid $132.50 for them and the box was purple) and a pair of big valve heads (don't know who did the actual porting at DDS then) and my first pair of 48s. I made a bunch of money street racing with that combo ( gotta love those thick headed Mustang owners). I dropped a valve going through the lights at OCIR and when I brought in the parts to show Dean, I remember him calling Ken over and they were so excited on how the piston had stayed in 1 piece (well sort of). The only thing holding the thing together was the rings. I remember Dean saying that if that piston had been forged, it would have done a lot more damage?Huh
I built quite a few motors using 92s (with Devcon behind #3) and basically a new motor would start running better times at the drags as the rings seated and then run really strong for a few runs and finally start to fade away as the cylinders warped. Had to own a leak down gauge. On street motors with lower compressions and proper cooling I found them to last quite a while and even when they started to leak, they still ran pretty good.
Later after suffering from poor quality control, I  joined Berg's camp and switched to Empi biral 88s (forged slipper skirts) when I could find them and then, of course, the Berg 90.5s


Marc
Logged

The legendary DRA car club
(Der Rennmeister Association)
deano
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1850



WWW
« Reply #12 on: January 05, 2011, 05:38:07 am »

Good shtuff.  Here's some more questions/comments:

1.  Did just DDS sell the NPR 92's, or did other companies sell them, or did just DDS sell them at first and then NPR stepped on them and started selling them themselves?  I thought the NPR 92 was a DDS design, did they have a patent on them?  It seems like not. At first, it was suppose to be a Deano exclusive, but that didn't last long. Soon, most big suppliers had them. No patent, no lawyers, handshake deal. RIP.

2.  Were the first NPR's a totally cast iron jug like a stock VW jug?  And with a cast AL piston just like a stock VW piston? Similar to OEM VW.

3.  Birals were the hot ticket in the 911 world for heat dissipation and seem to work well.  I guess the execution on the NPR's left a lot to be desired..... They had a good idea, but in the end, NPR could not control the cylinder shape.

4.  I wonder if any of the DDS/NPR 92 engines still are running around anywhere....anyone know of any? You bet, bunches!

5.  I wonder if the "92's are crap" general consensus is based in truth, or based on people just not installing them correctly or not making sure they were cooled correctly. Both are true. 

6.  John Lazenby, what was the general opinion of DDS parts from a GM's perspective?  What was the pecking order of the part brand names that were sold back then? 

Food for thought.   Grin
Logged

Hot VWs Magazine Window Washer
Anglia Obsolete Guru
'67 Heaven
rick m
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1296


Driving Hot VWs for 44 Years Strong!


« Reply #13 on: January 05, 2011, 06:27:08 am »

In the early 70's my first big motor, beyond the use of 88s was a 74mm (Bud Whitfield circular plain bearing CAST crank) x 92mm NPRs.  I had no idea cast cranks were bad back then until I disassembled the motor the first time.  My 92s showed exactly what Deano mentioned about seeing the stud lines in the barrels.  The Bud Whitfield crank had to be turned .020 on the rods and .010 on the crank after about 8000 really hard miles.  Not one trip in the car was I easy on parts...until I realized the cost of replacing them.

I was fortunate enough to have a VW shop mechanic turn me on to a dual relief case in 1972.  I did not have a full flow cover on my motor and unfortunately had an early style HAYDEN cooler with the oil bypass that came out of the back of the fan shroud, through a filter, then the cooler on the back of the shroud and back in the case.  I reall had little knowledge at the time about the cooling or anything else.  Also ran a radical Norris cam...that really belonged in a drag car. 

I have to say that the longevity of my parts were dramatically affected by the driving of an insane 20 year old.  The biggest improvement today is that many of the pistons and barrels have thicker walls than we had with the early NPR 92s.  I eventually built another motor and shifted back to the 90mm bore pistons.

Rick M
Logged

Rick Mortensen
Driving Hot VWs since 1970
johnl
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1533



« Reply #14 on: January 05, 2011, 17:21:56 pm »

John Lazenby, what was the general opinion of DDS parts from a GM's perspective?  What was the pecking order of the part brand names that were sold back then? 

If memory serves me Auto Haus never really carried "DDS" parts.  I think we purchased NPR cylinder sets from someone like Valley Core.  This was done by the owners, Lynn & Ron Rosevear and they set the price structure.  Seems to me that a set of 92 NPR's retailed in the $60 area.  I have a couple of virgin Auto Haus Catalogs at home and will look, but I don't think pricing was printed on the pages.  Ed Craig worked in the warehouse with Lynn & Ron and may be able to offer some remembrances on all of this.

Now by the time ARPM came to be with Ken Lowery at the helm (I think Dean was out of the picture by then) Auto Haus (RaceTrim) was involved, possibly a joint venture,  and we were offering sumps, shifters, (I use to refer to them as the "BRSM" model (Barney Rubble Signature Model)  Wink Wink dual carb linkage, dual intake manifolds and maybe a few other items through the Auto Haus stores under the RaceTrim brand, but they were the same product as the DDS brand.

What was my perspective as GM?  Of course I was interested in Auto Haus making $$, but I personally used some of the products on my own vehicles.  I had shifter on my Butternut car and later on my '71 Bus along with RaceTrim sumps on both vehicles and thought the quality to be good.  It wasn't because I got a better deal $$ though Auto Haus, but I believed in the product.  Where I didn't I went to Berg and Empi for carb linkage and intake manifolds.
Logged

Volkswagens Limited, DKP I
Celebrating 56 years of Volkswagens in my life 1963-2019

Life is a learning experience and then you die but when you do you've lived a good life if you contributed to your fellow man.
Fritter
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 625



« Reply #15 on: January 05, 2011, 20:01:01 pm »

Wow, great insight from everyone, good info for people doing research and searching the site.

Devcon....isn't that basically JB Weld?  So you filled in the little pocket behind #3 by the flywheel seal with it?  The ones I see nowadays with that area filled are usually welded.

So it seems that DDS/ARPM branched out to make most of the non Empi or Berg cast parts back then....I kind of knew that because I know the Race Trim sump is the same design as DDS.

Sounds like the 92's are usable in a milder motor but in an all out high compression hot running beast they will most likely warp very quickly...

Deano I wonder who has one of these NPR 92 motors now.....


Logged

Mike F.
'64 Indigo Blue sunroof Bug
gizago
Full Member
***
Posts: 189



« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2011, 20:45:10 pm »

Whats the general opinion on the current mahle 92's?? Just wondering as I'm currently bolting together a 74x92 using these for my other half's 67 bug. It will be sensible compression but will get some abuse (if she lets me drive it  Roll Eyes)
Logged
johnl
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1533



« Reply #17 on: January 05, 2011, 22:30:40 pm »

So it seems that DDS/ARPM branched out to make most of the non Empi or Berg cast parts back then....I kind of knew that because I know the Race Trim sump is the same design as DDS.

The other two major names of the day that come to mind are Truehaft and Scat.  Anyone know what ever became of Allen Truehaft?  Truehaft products may have come from ARPM, but Scat was from other sources.  I don't think Berg manifolds and sumps along with other products were shared under any other banner.  Don't know who Gene used for a foundry, but I suspect it was in the USA as most of that stuff was back then.  Gene was really a creative but a bit excentric guy.  He was also selling Kaypro Computers back then which I thought was really an interesting mix of products.  Basically all of the brands back then were good and it depended on what camp you got involved with that determined what ended up on your ride.
Logged

Volkswagens Limited, DKP I
Celebrating 56 years of Volkswagens in my life 1963-2019

Life is a learning experience and then you die but when you do you've lived a good life if you contributed to your fellow man.
.
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1768


« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2011, 23:10:04 pm »

A lot of the aluminum and some magnesium parts back then were cast by LANG in Canada.
Including Empi,Treuhaft, etc..
« Last Edit: January 05, 2011, 23:20:14 pm by Richard Roth » Logged
Lids
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 3527


show me the chedder


WWW
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2011, 23:50:15 pm »

Allen treuhaft is still alive, as I was fortunate enough to get a NOS sticker and an autograph from him about 2.5 years ago. I did have his email address but lost it when i rebuilt my computer.  He found some old stock in his garage and flogged it on ebay.  His wife convinced him to do it!



I have managed to contact him Smiley and pointed him in this direction, lets hope he chimes in.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2011, 07:23:05 am by Lids » Logged

If there's enough horse shit around, there must be a pony!
Buy your ciderberry here.

http://www.thatcherscider.co.uk/
rick m
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1296


Driving Hot VWs for 44 Years Strong!


« Reply #20 on: January 06, 2011, 03:16:46 am »

Wow John....Gene was the one who turned me on to my first computer beyond the Commodore 64 and it was that square metal box KAYPRO that had 520K memory. That even sounds hillarious now.  I used the large plastic floppys in it and still remember that old 8" green screen.  It really did not have a lot of computing power. I used it primarily to put together my first mailing list for events we did in the early 80's when I first started out promoting.  I have not heard the name Kaypro for a long time!

Rick Mortensen
Logged

Rick Mortensen
Driving Hot VWs since 1970
deano
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1850



WWW
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2011, 15:43:25 pm »

So it seems that DDS/ARPM branched out to make most of the non Empi or Berg cast parts back then....I kind of knew that because I know the Race Trim sump is the same design as DDS.

.... Gene was really a creative but a bit excentric guy.

Ya think?

Once Deano Dyno-Soars became DDS, they purchased their own foundry. At that point, Ken Lowry began to cast more and more parts for other suppliers, hence, the similar parts (valve covers, sumps, linkage, manifolds, etc, with only a name change). As far as I know, the only item Lowry could have made for Berg was shifter parts. By the time Lowry had their foundry up and running, Empi was gone.
Logged

Hot VWs Magazine Window Washer
Anglia Obsolete Guru
'67 Heaven
johnl
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1533



« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2011, 19:49:31 pm »

Wow John....Gene was the one who turned me on to my first computer beyond the Commodore 64 and it was that square metal box KAYPRO that had 520K memory. That even sounds hillarious now.  I used the large plastic floppys in it and still remember that old 8" green screen.  It really did not have a lot of computing power. I used it primarily to put together my first mailing list for events we did in the early 80's when I first started out promoting.  I have not heard the name Kaypro for a long time!

Rick Mortensen

Rick, my first computer was a KAYPRO which sounds like the one you speak of.  The key board attached to the computer metal case and became like a suit case.  I remember those big floppys and the tiny screen.  I purchased mine about 28 years ago an it was $1700 + a $400 Brother printer.  Times have sure changed.
Logged

Volkswagens Limited, DKP I
Celebrating 56 years of Volkswagens in my life 1963-2019

Life is a learning experience and then you die but when you do you've lived a good life if you contributed to your fellow man.
johnl
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1533



« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2011, 19:52:02 pm »

So it seems that DDS/ARPM branched out to make most of the non Empi or Berg cast parts back then....I kind of knew that because I know the Race Trim sump is the same design as DDS.

.... Gene was really a creative but a bit excentric guy.

Ya think?  You bet'um Red Ryder...   Grin Grin  Dean, you may be to young to remember the Ryder.......  Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes Roll Eyes

Once Deano Dyno-Soars became DDS, they purchased their own foundry. At that point, Ken Lowry began to cast more and more parts for other suppliers, hence, the similar parts (valve covers, sumps, linkage, manifolds, etc, with only a name change). As far as I know, the only item Lowry could have made for Berg was shifter parts. By the time Lowry had their foundry up and running, Empi was gone.
Logged

Volkswagens Limited, DKP I
Celebrating 56 years of Volkswagens in my life 1963-2019

Life is a learning experience and then you die but when you do you've lived a good life if you contributed to your fellow man.
rick m
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1296


Driving Hot VWs for 44 Years Strong!


« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2011, 05:19:56 am »

John,

We must have had the same model computer. My keyboard attached the same.  I remember I bought a 9 pin dot matrix printer to go with it and thought I was state of the art.  It is funny to look back on.

Rick Mortensen
Logged

Rick Mortensen
Driving Hot VWs since 1970
Fritter
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 625



« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2011, 06:04:21 am »

Not much to do with 92mm pistons, but what the heck.....

I was only around 10 in the early 80s, we had an Apple II+, the plus meant 64k of memory. 

I think Berg still does their invoicing on a Kaypro. 
Logged

Mike F.
'64 Indigo Blue sunroof Bug
bugnut68
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1749


« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2011, 00:01:02 am »

Not much to do with 92mm pistons, but what the heck.....

I was only around 10 in the early 80s, we had an Apple II+, the plus meant 64k of memory. 

I think Berg still does their invoicing on a Kaypro. 

We had an Apple IIe, which now sits on my desk in my bedroom as an ornamental piece, if nothing else.  All the stuff I wrote in Appleworks as a kid are on data discs that are still in storage, unfortunately. Grin
Logged
speedwell
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 14629


the archivist


WWW
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2011, 14:47:53 pm »

ok back on topic and  leave the computer aside  Wink

here's the installation instructions notice from my NPR92
Logged

http://speedwell55.skynetblogs.be/
oldspeed 61 standard empi/speedwell
deano
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 1850



WWW
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2011, 17:32:30 pm »

Fabs, even though your instructions say 1300/1500/1600, from what I see on your box, someone wrote "40hp only". That to me, says they have the small wrist pin version, and are for the shorter stroke (64mm). You need to measure the wrist pin diameter to make sure what you have....
« Last Edit: January 08, 2011, 17:59:19 pm by deano » Logged

Hot VWs Magazine Window Washer
Anglia Obsolete Guru
'67 Heaven
speedwell
Hero Member
*****
Posts: 14629


the archivist


WWW
« Reply #29 on: January 08, 2011, 17:44:08 pm »

thx dean i will do that tomorrow and will let you know

 Wink
Logged

http://speedwell55.skynetblogs.be/
oldspeed 61 standard empi/speedwell
Pages: [1] 2 Print 
« previous next »
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!