Race Engines (not only VW) who wants to talk?

[Jim Ratto]

this could be a fun thread. Talk about some notable race engines from motorsports history

ok guys- have at it

[Nico86]

Gordini engines 

Was fitted on the Renault 8 Gordini and Alpine A110 (and many more french cars). The best french machinery, wins rallyes, F1 Grand Prix, Le Mans...

http://www.renault.com/en/passionsport/pages/gordini-la-marque-d-un-sorcier.aspx

Great pic. Left : Jean Rédélé creator of the Alpine, and right Amédée Gordini and one of his engine. These two people are considered in France like Gene Berg, Dean Lowry or Joe Vittone are considered in the VW world.

[Jim Ratto]

good pick! Renault headed up turbo era of F1 in what, 1977? (!) And their F1 V6 utilized a timing belt to drive cams... unheard of for a race motor. I remember Alain Prost and Rene Arnoux in the RE30B's...
what is the V8 in the first picture, I don't recognize that?

[Nico86]

what is the V8 in the first picture, I don't recognize that?

http://gtfrance.free.fr/gordini_v8.html

It was the Gordini V8 3 liters prototype from 66/67 that was first supposed to be a F1 engine, but finally it was used on track and endurance Alpine's A220 and A221 in 68 and 69. You can see it already has the timing belts to drive the 4 cams.

Here's a link with the results of these cars : http://alpinerenault.free.fr/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=76&Itemid=85 I never really figured what were the differences between the A220 and the A221, something about the tail I guess.

By the way it wasn't used in F1 because the french president at this time decided to give money to help Matra-Simca to build the french F1 car, instead of Alpine-Renault-Gordini.

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[Jim Ratto]

Awesome. I wonder if the venture between Citroen and Maserati to develop the 90 deg V6 (think SM or Merak) was based on what Renault-Gordini was doing. Though that motor wasn't really a full blooded race motor, actually it's kind of a bit of a slug.

[Nico86]

Awesome. I wonder if the venture between Citroen and Maserati to develop the 90 deg V6 (think SM or Merak) was based on what Renault-Gordini was doing. Though that motor wasn't really a full blooded race motor, actually it's kind of a bit of a slug.

I don't know, maybe they took some unofficial "inspiration" in Gordini's works. Looks like the SM's V6 engine was created during the first years of collaboration between Peugeot, Renault and Volvo for their PRV V6 engine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRV_engine. But at this time Citroën wasn't a part of Peugeot (it was effective in 1975), and until Gordini died in 1979 he was legally linked to work for Renault and for Renault's projects only (then after he died Renault took all the benefit and credit of Gordini's team's works, and made his name dissapear, like they did later with Alpine and Jean Rédélé, and they did it again more recently with Matra  ) That must be why Citroën ask for help from Italy.

Talking about the PRV V6, this engine must have benefit a lot from Gordin's work on the previous V8 and on the V6s he developped for Renault F1 and track cars.

Like the Renault-Gordini CH1 used on the Alpine A440 (was also a 90 degree V6 like the PRV) :




This modified engine wins Le Mans in 78 with the Alpine A442 :




It was also used un Formula 2 and Formula Renault, and Turbocharged for F1 on the Renault RS01 :

[Nico86]

And another thing I don't understand from Renault : thanks to Gordini they had some great engine that allows Renault to have their name on the world of motorsport and sportscars. But never on any Renault or Alpine-Renault race car, never there was written the name of Gordini. It was never mentionned in any publications from Renault taking glory of their wins in motorsports. Then When Gordini died his team was disbanded and integrated in Renault-Sport and they took all the credit and all the benefit of his work. Gordini also played a major role in the conception of the Renault 5 Alpine Turbo, that became later the rear-mid engined Renault 5 Turbo.
And they did almost the same with Alpine and Jean Rédélé, and with Matra (and for these 2 it's even worse because I'm sure they make the companies fail on purpose, but it's a long story).

If you take a look on Alpine-Renault sports car, powered with Gordini engines. Renault played a minor part in this but took all the benefits in glory and money. If only Jean Rédélé and Amédé Gordini had enough means to build their own race car before signing contracts with Renault : one would have done the car, and the other the engine... I'm sure they would have had a lot of success without Renault.

[Lids]

There are 3 I think had major impact.

1. Lotus F1

2. Cosworth and Ford road and Rally cars

3. Honda Vtec F1 and NSX

[Fiatdude]

This picture says it all -- and very nicely thank you

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[Rick Meredith]

Waste of a perfectly good cammer   

[Rick Meredith]

No Love for the Flat 12? 



 

[BeetleBug]

For me it is difficult to talk about race engines without mentioning the fantastic Cosworth CA. With a low budget compared to the competitors Cosworth produced a winner capable of 20 000 rpms between 305 and 315 bhp per litre. Still considered one of the best F1 engines of all times:

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/articles/f1/inside-an-f1-engine/

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Best rgs
BB

[Chris Andrews - The Mailman]

Pay particular attention to the port angle, valve tulip and valve seat.

Dean Lowry and I had many hours of discussion on these very subjects.


Respectfully,

Chris Andrews - The Mailman

[Chris Andrews - The Mailman]

http://www.streetfire.net/video/cosworth-f1-v8-dyno-watch-the-tacho-by-the-way_71454.htm

[Chris Andrews - The Mailman]

[Nico86]

Is that the engine of these cars?

[Jim Ratto]

Coventry Climax FWMV

[Jim Ratto]

Porsche 771

[Jim Ratto]

Alfa Romeo Type 115 flat 12

[Jim Ratto]

Mercedes W196 desmodromic, direct injected, Hirth roller bearing crank

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/2AH9f_Sy-cs" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/2AH9f_Sy-cs</a>

[Jim Ratto]

Alfa Romeo 1951 Tipo 159 (1.5L, 450hp @ 9200....yes 1951)

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/g1yP4xUXfFY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/g1yP4xUXfFY</a>

[Fiatdude]

Waste of a perfectly good cammer   

Never Never never -- There is something to be said about having a boat down on the colorado River during Spring Break and having some young-ens in the boat bouncing across the wake with you

[Rick Meredith]

Waste of a perfectly good cammer   

Never Never never -- There is something to be said about having a boat down on the colorado River during Spring Break and having some young-ens in the boat bouncing across the wake with you

That may be true but you would get the same result with a much more common motor like a rat or an elephant

That cammer needs to be in a Fairlane or a lightweight Galaxie

[Jim Ratto]

Cosworth Ford BDA

[Chris Andrews - The Mailman]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/fZMPDCNyQxE" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/fZMPDCNyQxE</a>

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/RBKUQPjQ16I" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/RBKUQPjQ16I</a>

[BeetleBug]

BRM - Nice sound and that`s about it.

[Jon]

BRM - Nice sound and that`s about it.

400 HP pr liter... without EFI... in 1947... takes a lot to impress you BB...

[BeetleBug]

BRM - Nice sound and that`s about it.

400 HP pr liter... without EFI... in 1947... takes a lot to impress you BB...

If it only worked 

Although the engine/car was fast and powerful this was achieved, at least early on, at the expense of reliability, the engine suffering from water leaks into the cylinders due to the use of a separate head/block assembly, most previous supercharged engines using a combined unit, the V16 head-block union being unable to survive the high pressures involved leading to warpage and lifting of the head.

Number of Grands Prix 4
Number of starts 2
Number of finishes 2
Number of finishes in points 1

After the fiasco of the Ulster Trophy in June 1952, where both BRM V16-powered Type 15's failed to finish, Stirling Moss wrote to Raymond Mays telling him that he did not want to drive the car in the state that it was, given its lack of reliability.

[kingsburgphil]

How about one of those new twin cam, 4 valve Hemi's? [ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ] New in 1913.   

[Fiatdude]

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/k-5ACT0_I0s" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/k-5ACT0_I0s</a>

Good old VW HP lol