The Cal-look Lounge

Hi guys what option are out there for cooling a Pauter block engine ? Pics would also be cool :)

Cheers andy

You asking this question can only mean one thing: you have changed your mind _again_ on your engine build!?  :o
 ;D

Lol that's nothing compared to what nearly was going in the car until the sale fell through today lol

Take a look at Dons car on there website. Hard part is getting a should that fits right.

Andy

you need to check out what Don pauter has done with the pauter big block in his Ghia street car,he has got it pretty well figured out now and drives all over So cal with it

or buy a subaru :o


cheers richie

Thanks I will

Cheers andy

With that last comment I think Richie is drunk lol

Ches andy

With that last comment I think Richie is drunk lol

Ches andy
[/quote]

I only drink tea so its unlikely :o




but why not?

by you own signature you have no idea what you are doing ;D


and seem to change you mind every week ;) if you really want streetable then pauter proberly isnt the best idea,maybe you could buy Dannys engine ;D


cheers richie

Or do you need it to be able to pull that trailer as your motorhome isnt powerfull enough :o ;D 

Ouch...

The man has a point though. Why ask about cooling on a Pauter block? Thats not what they are ultimately are made for..
What is it you really want?

You are correct I do have no idea what doing first time I've built a race car so I would change my mind a lot as i can as im very lucky in what i do as a day job. i also want it right and to the vision I have in my head. I don't follow the crowd an do what I think may work but listen to others who know more than me. there are so many options out there engine wise I want to make sure I spend the money on the right thing for me  as , It will do wont do, any way back to the brain storming

Cheers  andy

There no ouch about it I put the question out there for an answer nobody said anything about street able

Cheers andy

and I ment no disrespect in my reply,more tongue in cheek ;D   

If all you want to do is move it at the track consider using methanol,it will run cool enough that you wont need a tow vehicle at the track and the info for running a pauter on methanol is huge,the guys at pauter proberly know as much as anyone about it.

But your wanting to use JPM heads is the most confusing,the real advantage of them is the cooling over other aftermarket heads,if you just want a race motor then there are other options that will suit the hp you seem to want better,try not to get too hung up on a name,look for what it will actually do,how strong it is,how easy you can get a replacement if it breaks and how much info is available to you in getting it to work,what you are trying to do is a pretty steep learning curve and there are not many who have actually done it,[plenty of internet experts though ;) ]and even less who will share truthfull info with anyone

cheers richie

Sorry I misunderstood the tone of your reply, so correct me if I'm wrong presently

JPM heads valve train etc  as I like the engineering and thinking behind it
Pauter block as I see it as bomb proof

What I want is to make somthing different
Try to make big power no point doing things by half not just to say my motor makes blah blah but use what out there to do somthing interesting

When I've got all this together what ever it turns out to be have a reliable race car that I don't need a tow car, don't have to charge batteries , and don't have to wait and hour for it to cool down and grow some balls to run a 9

Buying a whole pauter engine at present looks like a good idea

Cheers andy

Pauter OR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Og2G4FkuL0w

DO IT!!!

Taking a race engine, adding a cooling system and making it streetable is a whole lot more respectable than taking a street engine, removing the cooling system and calling it a "race engine".

Did you really just say you want a reliable race car?  :P

I think the above summery from Richie it was pretty much spot on.
As for wanteing something different; I think we all ultimately want more or less the same. Just using a full-out race engine without cooling is much easier and lots and lost less money.
Even with the money and the brains, it just doesn;t always becomes a succes to do what you described here above.
If you look at two very skillfull car owners we all know, you even better then me I think,: Russ Fellows car and Martin's Split: To get them to run for longer times without needing longer cool-downs, both ultimately went to watercool the heads.
Just saying thats how easy it is to make 5-fin racing heads cool between rounds... it obviously isn't.

The challenge is indeed making the heads cool and I would go from there: finding good cooling heads with extreme power potential. The Pauter motor is a tractor block in comparison to any street-orientated engine imo. The dragster from Hotrod (Henk Hendriks) over here runs one and I've seen it in all shapes over the time. Henk runs Pauter heads for a long time already too (on T4 engines with NOS); its all extremely massive, so much even that you can hardly imagine that it can only cool other then from heat soak.

Besides a partitioned cooling shroud, afaik Don has severely machined the fins on his heads on the street Ghia deeper into the casting as to enlarge surface area somewhat, but it still doen't look like a lot. Still, with low/mild static compression and a huge displacement, the engine doens't need much to work and stays cool enough for what he does do with it. Big props to him, but you want it boosted to 800 hp and do the same. Even if you could get it working like Don's engine, its still a big difference I think what happens after you ran an 800 hp run and wanting to return to the staging lanes multiple times. Even the strongest of engine platforms WILL still fail when they are overheated. They can take more load, but not much more heat.
With all due respect, but experimenting with Pauter block engines which are designed for one thing only (and that not being run on the street), you may be in for a long journey with them imho and that is not what you seek if I understood you correctly.

Getting back to the head cooling: as stated I would go from there. Besides JPM, there is a new CNC billet head from Thorsten Pieper specially designed for street use on an aircooled WBX engine. They look to flow and cool even more and might be able to make the hp with less boost then the JPM head.

Whatever you decide, it will be extremely interesting what your results will be Andy. Big thanks for sharing!
Walter

I think the only answer is just balls out and buy a Pauter big block and fook all this experimenting off , I'm not looking to go round and round as I think theres other stuff that needs doing ie packing chutes checking tyres etc. I'm under no dialusion not matter what power I may get its going to take me a  long time to even learn to drive the the tink let alone tuning the chassis and what I've done so far to may not work. And I guess living 5 miles from Santa pod I could drive there with a little cooling   ;D

Cheers andy

Mine and Russ's cool just fine...    but we are running water jackets on the head.  Russ also has a 911 fan cooling the barrels, but mine doesnt and mine runs cooler than his.

Don's own big block is the way to do it if you want to stay air cooled.


If you have the budget, just call Mario tell him what you want to do, and he'll build it for you.


Martin

Thats good news on the cooling do you have a picture of the water jackets Martin?

Cheers andy

Andy

its actually very difficult trying to recomend something specific for someones elses car,when what they want in the way of looks,performance and relibility are totally different to my own,for example you were considering buying the engine from Matt Keenes car correct? now I wouldnt even consider that as an option.I am into aircooled volkswagens,its that simple fo rme so anything else doesnt interest me,the engineering & hp gained from them amazes me,whether it be WBX,rotary,4 cylinder inline,V6 or even V8 and I enjoy reading about all the flavours,but in my car it has to be aircooled[helped a little by the methanol I grant you :) ]

If you said to me what should I buy/build for a reliable 700+hp I know exactly what it would be but having discussed the crank budget with you before I know even you dont have an endless supply of money so are looking for a bargain as such.

Maybe a proven combo like a complete pauter is the answer,but even they have some issues when pushed hard enough

keep posting and asking questions,by doing you research at least you will know waht you are letting yourself in for,that car is going to be crazy fast when you finish it :o 8) :)

cheers richie

Your right I certainly don't have an unlimited supply of money and yes always  looking for a bargin I would be no good a bussiness if I didn't lol . I think Pauter is the way forward for me as it cast no dought in my mind if it will work or take the power I'm targeting. Not really doing anything ground breaking but at the end of the day I never was for one I wasn't going to build the engine or have anything amazing to offer in the engine dept so tried and tested stuff I think

Cheers andy

Cool so thats it then,no changing your mind ;D

My last peice of advice would be to get someone familiar with pauter engines to build it,maybe a complete long block from pauter? or VW paradise,sorry Paradise motorsports ;) as there will be little things that you dont need to learn the hard way about how it goes together :o 8)

So back to the original subject, 911 style shroud with alternator for cooling? or do you have something else in mind to cool it now?one thing I did think of is there are plenty of people running them out in the dunes with cooling on that work so it can be done :)

cheers richie

Lol the emails in to pauter for a long block desision made

Very sensible move :)

Have you decided what size to get?


cheers richie

Now its going Pauter maybe 3.5l but we will see what prices are on that lol

I had a 3444cc Pauter in a street car for two seasons, with type 1 cooling. On gasoline it ran a little hot, but on E85 the heads never went above 120C, even with the ~1:1 ratio of the pulleys. The pulleys were made by locally, as was the adapter between the case and the alternator stand. Fan shroud was cut a little to fit, with home-made ugly cylinder tins. Pretty stealth?

[attachment=1]

Jyrki

That's ace very stealth looking :) I like it

Cheers andy

Jyki, very stealth looking indeed!
Why didn't you keep it?

That Rocks!

This is one way, my own aluminum design.
Of course this is a low comp.ratio turbo motor, so it runs cooler than an aspirated. About 125C on the road.
/Håkan

That's is very nice :)

Cheers andy

bloody hell that thing looks like its come out of the space shuttle  :o 8)

Nice chat with mario

80 mm stroke
108 bore
6,2 rod

The rest will come later

Cool! that 6.2 rod with the 80mm stroke will make for a very nice rod-ratio (1.97)!

Oh running meth  :)

So my next load of questions

Apart from not liking aluminium, burning with no flame or smoke And needing lots of flow

What else ?

Don't drink it (even though you can), make sure all fumes are vented so you don't get it in the cockpit, prolonged exposure can cause health problems.

Richie / Jim Smith are may be the best to answer this as they use it more than anyone else on here.

I used to run it, in woper. my procedures went like this..

first fire in the morning.. use petrol! to get a little heat into the heads.
then turn on the meth, and off it goes...

Go race

At the end of the weekend, drain the tank put some petrol in it (load up your gas map ;) ) then run it to clear out the injectors and lines.

some people keep meth in the system , they just top it right up, but persoanly im like to get it out of there..

the meth you take out keep seperate from the "new meth" as it would have already started taking on water (you can get a hydromiter to see how much water is in it to make sure).

buy your meth in small containers and dont leave it open to the air, as its takes on water from the air then it just wont make the power

Dont buy the cheap "printer cleaning Alki" as the quality is not up to spec.

dont use fuel pumps that are submurged (aeromotive pro pumps ect) as the electrolisis effect just eats the pumps away, stick to a pump rated for the HP and fuel. I personaly use Weldon pumps.
as there motor is seperate from the fuel

I never suffered from milky oil as i got the oil temps up past 90 oC and the water vapoured off keeping the oil nice.

be prepaired to buy loads of it as you need twice as much! lol

and the most important bit..... Have fun!


just my take on it...

Martin

Thanks Martin :)

the spec so far

1   90-1000-    F/C Pauter Big Block for Chrysler or Ford mains                
                    Includes:  dry sump pan, top and front covers, flywheel plate, cam gears, dist clamp and misc fasteners   

1   63-394   80mm Pauter billet crank / flanged end                   

1set   50-660   4340 chrome moly billet rods,( 6.200”/turbo )                      

1kit   86-030   roller cam and lifters (profile to be determined)                     

1kit   40-619   modular bore kit (4.250” pistons, cyls, rings, pins with buttons)                   
         
1pr   90-200-T   Pauter Super Pro heads stage 2 – 57m x 43m titanium valves and retainers                                                 
         PAC springs , polished, cc’d , stainless orings and assy                                                                                                                                                                                                             

1pr   90-340   Vave covers , Pauter SP heads                    
1set   90-300   exhaust flanges for customer header system                       

1set   90-301   copper exhaust gaskets                              
1set   90-1012   chrome moly head stud kit w/ nuts & washers                  

1set   81-2?0   1.4, 1.5 or 1.6 Super Pro billet roller rocker kit                     

1set   80-099   Super Pro pushrod tubes                        
1set   80-070   3/8” or 7/16” dbl tapered HT Chrome moly pushrods to length                     

1set   40-413   copper head gaskets for modular bore kit  (head to cyl interface)                    
 
1kit   xxxxx   set, rod / main / cam bearings, all seals                  

1   30-511   flanged-end flywheel w/ McLeod 2-disc clutch assembly                  

1   94-400   4-stage Center-Flo oil pump, VW drive, no fuel pump drive                                                        


cheers andy

Wow! A typical overthetop old school US engine. Built like a tank and should be perfect for your car and trailer.

It's the  way I roll  lol tbh I couldnt find a way to get what I was looking much less than this and not  realy proven I don't know enough about engines to make that call so somebody had to

Cheers andy

It was pretty fun the first season (11.53/187 in a full-weight street car in full street trim; nice torque, shift point at 6300rpm), but the following year on my first pass, maybe 5 seconds into the run I realized that for drag racing it's just way too slow (ie boring), and drag racing is my thing. Sold the car w/o engine and focused again on turbos. True story  ;)
Jyrki

Why not just turbo that car Jyrki?

Can you share more specs of that engine please Jyrki? :)

I bought the engine as non-used long block in 2007 (or 2006??); it had been in a wooden crate since late 90s. The engine was in my street '55 beetle in 2008 with 62mm carbs and in 2009 with TB's and EFI. 94 stroke x 4.25" bore, 57x43 heads, roller cam, 11.0 and later 11.8:1 compression, home-built 4-2-1 header. Ran mid 11s in a 900kg street car so maybe 250-260hp / 6000rpm? Should have made more..

With turbo in that car it would have been lethal without making major changes, and I kinda already had one car that was already cut to fit turbo and everything involved. So 2010-2011 I focused on running my good old '65 street turbo car. It was fun, but after racing the same car for a long long time it was time to move on, so now the Pauter engine sits in a new project car, with shorter rods to lower compression to 8:1 and a smallish turbo. Not fired yet.

Jyrki