The Cal-look Lounge

I just received my new CB crankshaft and the lightened flywheel.

The problem is,the cb crankshaft dowels just don't want to fully seat into the flywheel dowel holes.



What can be done?

Tight is good! Are you sure you`re not able to press it down? I used 3/100 press fit on both dowels and flywheel and believe me, that was tight.

Hi,

I was thinking of torking it down with the gland nut,maybe it will go on.

Here is a pic i took just now:

I center the dowels over the holes,and the flywheel sits just on the upper edges of the dowels.When I try to push it hard it won't go on.

(http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/1087/dsc02405rq4.jpg)

I mean,if it goes on with so much trouble now,I will have a hard time with it assembling the motor,because I will have to measure end play while it is on the table,then again when the shortblock is together.

Can I drill the holes in the flywheel a bit larger?? ???

Oh Gee.... :-\

This is my first real HIGH Performance building experience when I do It from scratch.


It is the 69mm CB performance crank but sold by DRD racing heads(I thought DRD made their own stuff).I got it today from the states.Iit's supposed to be nitrited as the seller advertises.

Here's the crank and the flywheel:

(http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/3041/dsc02402zz2.jpg)

(http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/8407/dsc02403an3.jpg)

Thats exactly the way I did it. Scat bolt and a torque gun, then replace the bolt with a new one and, locktite and torque to spec. And yes, it does take a little more effort but I rather have a flywheel that stay on it`s place. Full weight 65, DOT slicks, 2221 ccm, 12.50 and 1,63 60. 

You dont need to assemble it to set the end play,you can measure it apart,you just need a good depth micrometer and the rear bearing you are going to use,if you want the info PM me and I will help you through it,and yes they are supposed to be tight :) but once you have out it down the first time it does become easier.
And no Darren @ DRD doesnt make anything,he is just a resaler for other companys parts.

cheers richie,uk

This problem has become almost an industri standard. You can only get a good fit if the flywheel and crank are drilled together. I dont think pressing it on when it doeesnt fit is a good idea. You will be putting a lot of stress on an already weak point of the flywheel. I usually put Dykem coulor on the dowels to find which ones are missing the target. I then hone the holes a minimum to make it fit. This problem is one reason why I never buy cranks with eightdowels and drilled flywheels because they never fit. If you buy Scat cranks you can get them with eight holes but without dowels. That way you can drill your own flywheel to fit. To cure the problem totaly in this case I would pull the dowels out of the crank (not an easy task) and redrill them together with oversize dowels (11/32). Are you sure DRDsold you a cb crank? Iknow for a fact that he resells cranks from Grab Speed Components.

Heat the flywheel, should make all the difference you need.

It states CB69 and GSC on the crank.CB 69 on the rear main counterweight.

I don't really want to pull the dowels out and drill it again.I don't have the right equipment to do it,nor do we have a qualified machinist to do it.

What I will try myself tomorrow is to heat the flywheel,if that won't be enough than i would ream the holes in the flywheel and make them little bigger.

GSC stands for Grab Speed Components or maybe G Serrano Company. Beats Me.

Well as someone told you,try to bolt it down the dowel like this,and check how the flywheel seat on the crank .
I already have this kind of problem and most of the time we had to replace the dowel because the flywheel wasn't turning round and by the way we couldn't balance  the parts!
Hope you will be more lukiy than us!

Agree! It`s incedible what a little heat and cold can do, look at these movies and you should get the point;

Part 1; http://www.streetvw.se/filmer/axel.wmv
Part 2; http://www.streetvw.se/filmer/jiiihaa.wmv

Hi guys,

Today I tried to heat it up,but there are no changes.Also after heating I tapped it hard with the rubber mallet.

Dowels start to make signs about half of mm from the edge of the dowel holes(only two dowels).

I didn't try to torque it with the gun,because I am afraid of ruining the flywheel.

Here it is:

(http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/1162/dsc02427oz5cf9.jpg)

here are some pics,so you can see the dowel holes and the dowels.You can't see much from the pics but....

(http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/4664/dsc02421nv6.th.jpg) (http://img341.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc02421nv6.jpg)(http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/2792/dsc02422mh2.th.jpg) (http://img341.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc02422mh2.jpg)(http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/7974/dsc02423lu5.th.jpg) (http://img341.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc02423lu5.jpg)(http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/8819/dsc02424pt2.th.jpg) (http://img341.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc02424pt2.jpg)(http://img341.imageshack.us/img341/782/dsc02426vw9.th.jpg) (http://img341.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc02426vw9.jpg)



My first task is to contact the seller and to try and find a resolvable solution to this problem with him.I'll send him mail in the afternoon.

Then,If there won't be any success with that,I will try to find someone here in Europe who can fix that crank for me.

International shipping charges are very high,and not to mention customs and their charges here in Croatia.

Here In Croatia,we simply don't have the qualified machinist who could try to fix the crank with oversized dowels.

But let's wait and see...

All your opinions are welcome.

well,if you really have a matching problem between crank and flywheel (that's often accure with today crank/flywheel) the only way to fix it is to check the dowel size and the hole on the flywheel.Sometime the hole are slightly undersized so ream by hand (with a reamer)those to the size of the dowell can in this case make the solution.
Underneath you have  to buy the fixture to drill the 8 dowell sold by all the good shop and find a good machine shop who can use it to modifie your parts
Good luck

I've measured all the holes in the flywheel,they are 8mm all.I put the 8mm drill through them and it goes in,but needs slightly more centering.

I have the flywheel/crank dowelling tool,boroved it from a friend.

I heated the flywheel and have frozen the crank in the freezer ;D

But still it didn't help :-\

It looks like two dovels are off center,so maybe I will ream them.

I only make the holes bigger when they are of by very little. In your case It seems as the sollution is 11/32 but pulling out the Chineese dowels is very hard and the chance of them breaking is big. Gene Berg ones wrote that if your parts are not drilled together you might as well stay with four dowels and a new bolt with large washer. I tend to agree. Honing the holes that dont fit is one method but you can also grind of some material on the side of the dowel that doesnt fit. At this point you just make it fit and live with the fact that 6dowels is enough if you have a good quality glandnut. I could help you but Sweden is to far away from Croatia. Love your country,spent a holiday sailing around Split last year. Have some loose plans of driving my 66 bug down to Greece after the summer.

Is there anyone qualified in Austria who can fix my crank?

It hasn't come up yet, so I'll say it, but you have noticed one dowel is (deliberately) off-center right? ...meaning they only fit together in one position...
Just in case  ;)

Try to take out the bad dowels, and when you manage to get the flywheel on the crank with less dowels, bolt them together and make sure you measure with micrometer that the flywheel is centered on the crank within vw tolerance. I've had the same problem once, and even with 7 dowels installed it was off center.
Sad enough,you just can't trust too many parts. Good luck.

Heh,yeah I know that,you can see from the picture that it is wright on the track to come in ;)

Today I managed to do something.Firstly,I didn't have the right tools to torque down the flywheel,I went to 3 shops and nobody had the 38mm socket for the Scat chromoly glandnut.

So I found the original 36mm bolt and borrowed the socket from a friend,and went to torque it down with the wider Scat washer.While I was holding it,friend was torquing it down.

Before trying to bolt/torque it down,I reamed holes just a little bit with a hand.I screwed the bolt down with hand,because I think the torque gun would damage the flywheel too much.What happend now,pins went to the hole,but there's still space between the crank and the flywheel.

Wright now,I can't get the crank off the flywheel,but that's still success in comparison that it didn't want to go through the holes ;D

I will try to tap it down with the rubber hammer/mallet,and afterwards see where the pins made space for themselves.

What's bothering me now,is there a chance that the flywheel would be off centar for the balance,If I torque it down far more ?????

I will tell you guys what is really sad and dissapointing from the seller.

When I was buying the crank and the flywheel,I specifficaly mentioned that I want the dynamic balancing job done of the complete assembly,and I asked how much does it cost!!?

Seller said: Oh,it's nothing it's free of charge for you,you don't have to pay anything,I'll do the balance job free.

I trusted him.....stupid me....

But what's really sad,this flywheel and the crankshaft were never ever really bolted together,so how the hell would they be balanced,if they even don't fit!!

I wanted it balanced there,because I knew that there isn't any option for me to balance the assembly here in Croatia.

There are options to do it in Graz/Austria,and then Germany,many places but that's to far.

Ah.............

Hi besserwisser,

If I won't  have any options after I try to do it my way,I will have to use 11/32 dowels,If the whole thing is off center.

I'm glad that you love Croatian sea. :)

Most of the time the crank and flywheel are balanced seperatly[the flywheel would have the clutch cover bolted to it],they could well be balanced still :)

cheers richie,uk

Hi
If you want to fix it with bigger dowel pins only use Gene Berg ones , i use them with all cranks , they are the only ones i know that are strong enough .

Udo

How much would it cost to fix the crank and to get it all balanced properly?

Some success is here,as I mentioned but done with force and that's not good.

Still space left between the crank and the flywheel.

(http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.5a30ec0057.jpg) (http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?5a30ec0057.jpg)(http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.cae5568f53.jpg) (http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?cae5568f53.jpg)(http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.cf64b29d4b.jpg) (http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?cf64b29d4b.jpg)(http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/uploads/th.f39273e966.jpg) (http://img2.freeimagehosting.net/image.php?f39273e966.jpg)

Sorry but i think this is one of the problems with cheaper cranks . I have seen some of this from my customers at cranks they showed me , the other problem i see is that the material is more soft than scat or german cranks . The only way to fix it is to install 11/32 dowel pins with the flywheel bolt on .

Udo

Few questions:
- Wouldn't the easiest way be to ditch this flywheel, take some original one, lighten it and drill the holes in it using crank as a patern?
- Udo, talking about cheaper, softer cranks - this sounds as a good starting point for a new topic. Which ones do you concider inferior? I mean : I thought that CB ones should be OK, but the truth is, they are much cheaper than Scats for example and I wonder why.
- Another can of worms would be to ask - when can we use original, non counterweighted crank? I can hear all the Americans yelling "never" or "up to 5500rpms" but this does not seem to be a firm rule in Scandinavia for example. Maybe I'm wrong, but this is what I've noticed. I just wonder what is better - use a good, original crank and balance it properly, or spend money on a counterweighted 69 mm crank, which does give you nothing in terms of increasing engine capacity, which is heavy and which is probably of much inferior quality compering to the German one.
I know that only the first question is on topic, sorry.       

 

they are much cheaper than Scats for example and I wonder why.

This is because Scats are made in USA and others in china . Scat offers made in China too but they make a difference in the price .
I wonder about Buckpacks , perhaps Rick Saddler or Dominik can give us some infos  ???
When i watch the pictures in this topic he got an empi crank and a CB flywheel , seems it does not work .

Udo

Hi Udo,

you think this crank is really made by EMPI?I know the cores are made there,but was it also finished as an Empi crank.............

It has both markings GSC and CB69 with big letters,so it sure is a faker :-\What can you get better for $225. :'(

Udo,how do you know that the fylwheel is made by CB Performance?How can I see that.

Here are some todays pictures.It was very very hard for me to snap off the flywheel of the crank.My hand started hurting how much I have been tapping with the rubber mallet.

Here are some pics of the flywheel holes:

(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/8120/dsc02438tc4.th.jpg) (http://img402.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc02438tc4.jpg)(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/8849/dsc02439ld3.th.jpg) (http://img402.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc02439ld3.jpg)(http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/9582/dsc02440xv5.th.jpg) (http://img402.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dsc02440xv5.jpg)

Talked about the problem with the seller.

Just curious if your crank is std on all journals since I´ve seen GSC cranks being reground in LA. They were to much of on the journals. I have never seen cranks with both CB and GSC at the same time. My opinion is that someone is trying to pull a fast one.It is time people start realizing that with internet every bit of shit will hit the fan ,sooner or later.

Hi besserwiser,

how can i check that?What is the standard VW journal size,so i can compare

Standard size is 55mm on the rods and mains. With a micrometer they will probably be 1hundreds under.

just cheked it with the Vernier Caliper

they all are 55mm  ;D Something is wright at least

Gene Berg recommended match reaming the flywheel and crankshaft while bolted together using a reamer with a very slight taper ground into it. 

The dowel pins should have a press fit of 0.0012" to 0.0018" into the crankshaft and  0.0002" to 0.0005" into the flywheel.

I bought one of his taper ground reamers years ago and have used it a number of times with great success.

BEFORE I insert the dowel pins into the crankshaft, I bolt on the flywheel with an old gland nut with OILED threads.  NEVER bolt on a gland nut without lubrication. WITHOUT the flywheel O-Ring installed, I set the crankshaft end play.  I check the depth of the holes in the flywheel and add that to the flywheel thickness to make sure that the holes have been drilled deeply enough so the dowel pins won't protrude past the flywheel.  Scat dowel pins are too long in my opinion, and their dimensions are not held closely enough.  I have used Scat dowel pins in the past, but not any more.  Now I only use Gene Berg dowel pins because they control the dowel pin diameter and length very closely.

I made a fixture to bolt the crankshaft and flywheel together.  I used an old gland nut, cut off the hex head and removed the pilot bearing inside the gland nut.  I ground the hex head of a bolt round and with a slight taper and put the bolt through the gland nut and brazed the bolt to the remaining threaded portion of the gland nut.  The end of the bolt has a hole cross drilled through the bolt so I can insert a rod to hold the bolt while I tighten a nut to lock the flywheel and crankshaft together.

I screw this bolt assembly  into the crankshaft.  I have a huge washer with a small hole in it that the bolt passes through that goes over the flywheel.  I filed recesses in the washer for access to four of the dowel pin holes.  It looks similar to a cross with a hole in the middle.  I screw a nut onto the end of the bolt and then insert a rod through the bolt.  Holding the rod so the bolt won't turn inside the crankshaft, I tighten the nut over the cross shaped washer which locks the flywheel and crankshaft together

I match ream the four holes that I have access to through the recesses in the washer.  I tap in a couple of slightly undersize dowel pins to hold the crankshaft and flywheel position.  Then I loosen the bolt and rotate the cross shaped washer to expose the other four holes and then tighten the nut.  Then I match ream the remaining four holes.  Then I unbolt the fixture and separate the crankshaft and flywheel.  I use a countersink bit to slightly chamfer the holes in the crankshaft and flywheel.  This is important!  You don't want a dowel pin to get hung up on a sharp edge of a hole.  Then I clean all of the holes in the crankshaft and flywheel.

When it comes time for the final assembly and have triple checked everything, I add a light coat of oil on the graphited O-ring and install it into the flywheel.  I clean the threads inside the crankshaft with acetone to remove any traces of oil.  I also clean the threads of my gland nut with acetone.  I add Loctite Sleeve and Bearing Retainer #620 to the threads of the crankshaft and gland nut.  Loctite is adequate lubrication while tightening the gland nut.

I put the flywheel onto the crankshaft.  I drive each dowel pin through the flywheel and into the crankshaft just a little bit, until I have all eight dowel pins partially installed.  Then I carefully drive the dowel pins in until they are driven in just below the surface of the flywheel.

I install the ground washer and gland nut and tighten it with a breaker bar.  I take a heavy brass hammer and everytime I pull the breaker bar tight, I whack the end of the breaker bar and socket which helps to make sure that there is no gap between the  flywheels and crankshaft.  I whack and tighten, whack and tighten.  You can tell when it is tight because the sound changes from being thuddy, to ringing when you have driven the flywheel completely onto the dowel pins.  Then I use a torque wrench to tighten the gland nut to 320 lbs for a stock gland nut and 350 lbs for a Gene Berg forged gland nut.

You want to do this quickly before the Loctite begins to set up.  Once you start, you don't stop for anything until you are finished.  Have EVERYTHING set up before your start.  I have a bar bolted to the flywheel to hold it while I torque the gland nut.  But I bolt it on BEFORE I screw in the gland nut.  Make sure that you have already set your torque wrench in advance.

If you try to simply tighten the gland nut to pull the flywheel tight, it might not pull together completely.  You have to whack the end of the socket while you tighten the gland nut

I insert cotton tipped swabs through the bearing inside the gland nut and remove any excess Loctite that has squeezed out.  I let the Loctite cure for at least 24 hours before starting the engine.

I have never had a flywheel come loose when I have used this procedure.

Scott Novak

This is the best way , but most companies sell crank and flywheel separate , so they can not bore and ream bolted together .

Udo

When people say GSC , I think of G. Serrano Company. I have never had a CB or a GSC crank so I don't know what they stamp them with, but what happened to Serranos inventory?

WOW!
great explanation Scot!!!

I have a feeling its now TDC VW parts but not 100%,just my feeling ::)

cheers richie,uk

Udo,

It's true that you can't match ream the existing size dowel holes that have already been drilled by someone else.

However, if the holes are 8 mm, you can drill and match ream to the 11/32" dowel pin size.

In this case, I don't know if the holes are poorly aligned between the crankshaft and flywheel, or if there might actually be a proper interference fit.

It may be all that is necessary is to tighten the gland nut with a wrench and then whack the socket end of the wrench with a heavy brass hammer while you are tightening the gland nut.  I would be tempted to use an old gland nut, lubricate the threads and try installing the crankshaft WITHOUT the O-ring and see if it is actually possible to draw the flywheel down tight to the crankshaft.

If it did work, you would still need to remove the flywheel to install the O-ring.  You need to be careful to pull the flywheel straight off.  If you try to wiggle the flywheel back and forth, you will elongate the dowel holes and make them useless.  I know it's extra work, but I wouldn't want to Loctite the gland nut until I knew positively that the flywheel fit properly over the dowel pins.

Scott Novak

Today received the 82mm VW journal GSC chinese crankshaft.

It looks good to me,I found out that it has the bigger 11/32 dowels fitted.

Some journals are a liitle bit scratched,not to feel it with the finger nail,but to be safe I will have it cut 0.10 and build that damn engine ;)

(http://img443.imageshack.us/img443/9876/dsc02460lg8.jpg)