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Author Topic: Dual carbs-setting them?  (Read 3709 times)
stayster
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Posts: 10


« on: February 22, 2014, 20:57:42 pm »

Hi

New here. I have had a set of dual webers on my 67 bug for years now. But I have never really been that happy with how I get them synced? What does every one else use, to sync them, the unisyn?, or the more modern flow type unisyns?, or  a piece of vaccum hose next to your ear.

Anybody got a good procedure to set them?

I alway seem to have one popping and coughing at times.  Main jets seem to be fine. I pulled the spark plugs and the spark plugs have a good brownish tip to them. I think my trouble is getting the air beed screws set properally.

Carb's are 42DCNF's webers on a GENE BERG engine, modified heads by Clyde, intake runners and heads ported and polished by Clyde (carb's were set up by Clyde Berg many years ago. Car isn't driven much, weekend cruiser).

Thanks in Advance.

Chas
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JezWest
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« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2014, 18:37:58 pm »

I've had good results from these instructions: http://www.aircooled.net/vw-carburetor-tech/

I use the "Snail Type" sync tool.

I have Dellorto DRLA40s and not DCNFs, so results may differ!


If you haven't had them apart for a while, it could be useful to take the carb tops off and look into the fuel bowls. Look for any bits of dirt, check the floats aren't leaking. Also valuable is removing the jet stacks and checking them for filth. It's amazing what gets in here, even with filters and care! If you do take the tops off, buy a replacement gasket set first - just in case you tear a gasket.
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nicolas
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« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2014, 11:07:41 am »

it is a bit hard to just pinpoint what makes them run so bad. but i have experience with 42's and they come from berg as well. first i made sure they are clean, all the jets, passages and overall carb must be clean and in good functioning order. that means good seals and a carb arm that works freely independently, no linkage yet. then if this all works good set them up like a regular IDF carb (you should be able to find it easily, the CB book is what i use, the DCNF is described as well).
next what i do is roughly set up the linkage. by this i mean the linkage must not bind, open the carbs at the same time and have full throttle on both carb, again at the same time. don't fix the screws, leave it loose.
then i take off one linkage arm to make sure one carb is not overtaking the other. start the car, warm up the engine, with the rough setting it should run quite high in rpms (if not check settings, fuel delivery, timing and jets,...)
adjust the carbs with a snail-type sync tool, pulling plug wires and looking at the rpm drop works really good if there isn't a balancing tube. carb by carb until you run at an acceptable continuous rpm (really depends on the cam and engine) mine is set at 850-900 rpms.
attach the arm again and check the alignment again like in the rough setting, rpms should be the same. operate the linkage and it all must work freely and the engine should respond really good. it isn't even under load now, so it must be smooth, otherwise it will only be worse when driven.

hope it helps.
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hotrodsurplus
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It's not how fast you go; it's how you go fast.


« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2014, 20:47:12 pm »

I alway seem to have one popping and coughing at times.

Popping through the intake indicates a lean condition. The three most common causes for lean conditions are vacuum leaks, plugged idle jets, and float settings.

People have their favorite ways to find vacuum leaks but the most reliable way I've found is to push a hose over the end of a propane torch, open the valve, and point the tip at the potential leak points while the engine is running. Others like carb cleaner but it attacks paint and isn't always reliable.

DCN-series carburetors are especially vulnerable to plugged idle jets. They originally came with 'stacks' cast into the carb top. They serve as velocity stacks but they also extend the float-bowl opening above the filter floor. Unfortunately they usually get milled off to run aftermarket air filters. Despite their popularity those oiled cotton-gauze filter elements do a terrible job at filtering dirt big enough to clog an idle jet.

A low float setting usually causes a lean condition in higher-speed transition. Think WOT.

I pulled the spark plugs and the spark plugs have a good brownish tip to them.

The term tip, while commonly used, doesn't indicate a specific place. It's better to define the actual parts. You have a ground strap, electrode, porcelain, and base ring. Each of those will tell you more about how the engine runs. The following link explains how to read a plug. Bear in mind that water-cooled engines can usually tolerate leaner conditions than air-cooled Volkswagens. So what's perfect for an ACVW might be pig rich for a water-cooled car. 

http://www.wallaceracing.com/plug-reading-lm.html

I think my trouble is getting the air beed screws set properally.

Okay, for clarification there are no air-bleed screws. There are air-bleed jets but those have a fixed orifice and come in different sizes.

Do you mean the air-fuel mixture screws or do you mean the air-bypass screws? Here's an image that shows them:



In crude terms the air-bypass screws exist for applications where you'd have to open the throttle blades sufficiently to uncover the progression ports just to get the engine to idle properly. In those cases you'd close the throttle blades enough to cover the progression ports then open the bypasses enough to give the engine the air it needed to idle (the idle port would still administer idle fuel). Most tuners recommend closing those air bypasses altogether.

The air-fuel mixture screws are another story. There are tons of instructions on how to set them properly so I won't go there. But if they're set too lean then the respective cylinder will run poorly at idle. Mixture-screw setting doesn't have much bearing on engine dynamics once the progression ports start opening (tipping into the throttle).

(carb's were set up by Clyde Berg many years ago. Car isn't driven much, weekend cruiser).

This could be a big contributor to your problem. If the engine was tuned prior to the ethanol-enhanced fuels then it's likely too lean now. Stoichiometry of old-world gasoline was 14.7:1 but the ethanol-enhanced fuels have a stoic of about 14:1. So the carburetors may require larger idle-fuel and main-fuel jets.

But before you start changing parts willy-nilly take the time to eliminate the other variables. If it were mine I'd pull the carburetors and replace the manifold-to-head gaskets. Do the same for the carb-to-base gaskets if they're rough. It wouldn't hurt to just go through the carburetors with new kits. Make sure the floats are set right.

FWIW, there's a debate as to how to set float heights when using ethanol-enhanced fuel. Because ethanol has greater density than gasoline the float will actually sit higher in ethanol-based fuel therefore the fuel level will drop. In theory at least. In application the percentages are so small that it probably doesn't make a difference so I wouldn't actually deviate from the specs. However, I'd set the floats on the higher side (closer to the lid) of the acceptable range just to be on the safe side. 
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Jim Ratto
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« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2014, 21:02:51 pm »

before you touch the carburetors, make sure you have valve lash and that you have sufficient initial ignition advance. Tight intake valve lash, and or/ retarded timing will cause sneezes and backfires up through carbs. If you start twisting the carbs around, without having a good base otherwise, you could chase a non-carburetor-related problem for a long time. Seven times out of ten, bad running carbs are the symptom of not enough initial advance.
The other three reasons are usually:
Intake leak between cylinder head and manifiold
Crap in idle jet
mixture screws too far in

Make sure you (after checking advance and vlave lash) adjust the carburetors after the engine is fully warmed up, like oil is 180F or more.
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hotrodsurplus
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It's not how fast you go; it's how you go fast.


« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2014, 21:39:32 pm »

before you touch the carburetors, make sure you have valve lash and that you have sufficient initial ignition advance. Tight intake valve lash, and or/ retarded timing will cause sneezes and backfires up through carbs. If you start twisting the carbs around, without having a good base otherwise, you could chase a non-carburetor-related problem for a long time. Seven times out of ten, bad running carbs are the symptom of not enough initial advance.

Good call--more of establishing the baseline.

Also, do you know what the rest of the engine was built like? Berg really fancied low-efficiency ideas like super-low compression ratios and semi-hemi chamber designs. If your engine was built like that then the prevailing VW timing settings go out the window. It takes longer for the flame to travel across an inefficient chamber therefore you have to start the fire sooner. Heads cut for SH usually require significantly more advance--like 12 to 14 initial and 36 or even more total advance. Big deck heights usually don't require as much advance but it's not common to need more base advance at low speeds and as much as 34 degrees total. 
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stayster
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Posts: 10


« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2014, 04:38:24 am »



Yes fortunately, I do know all of that as, I built the engine and the original 7.0:1 compression was way to low as the plugs constantly fouled. I quickly changed that compression back to 8.5:1 and things really improved. I like everyone's thought of a little more advance as I have not tried that.

Thank you everyone for your comments! They are much appreciated!

Chas
« Last Edit: March 02, 2014, 04:45:04 am by stayster » Logged
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