Roller Rockers????????

[Lee.C]

So whats the story guys - what does evryone think of "Roller Rocker"

Who still makes them 

[Sander/DVK]

I like them. Less friction, so more HP.

Pauter and Autocraft makes them as far I know.

[Bewitched666]

Dont know about the more HP part,less friction is correct

[Jim Ratto]

I don't like them. Too much weight @ valve end of rocker. Though, I wouldn't want the weight @ the pushrod end either!  .
Just make sure your geometry is on and you shouldn't need to worry about friction.

[Lee.C]

I don't like them. Too much weight @ valve end of rocker. Though, I wouldn't want the weight @ the pushrod end either!  .
Just make sure your geometry is on and you shouldn't need to worry about friction.

Do you EVER like any ideas I come up with

[Jim Ratto]

I don't like them. Too much weight @ valve end of rocker. Though, I wouldn't want the weight @ the pushrod end either!  .
Just make sure your geometry is on and you shouldn't need to worry about friction.

Do you EVER like any ideas I come up with

of course I do, buddy.... 

you ever like any of my advice? 

[Lee.C]

I don't like them. Too much weight @ valve end of rocker. Though, I wouldn't want the weight @ the pushrod end either!  .
Just make sure your geometry is on and you shouldn't need to worry about friction.

Do you EVER like any ideas I come up with

of course I do, buddy.... 

you ever like any of my advice? 

fair point fair point

[Jim Ratto]

in all seriousness, I like your plans to turn away from current tech stuff in vogue and have a go at it with "old technology", dude it had to work back then or us young guys would be looking back saying "dude, how cool that must've been to see your motor go KABANG!!!!" Right? Somebody had to to something right! 

[Sander/DVK]

I don't like them. Too much weight @ valve end of rocker. Though, I wouldn't want the weight @ the pushrod end either!  .
Just make sure your geometry is on and you shouldn't need to worry about friction.

Are you serious? The rockers are very light and have needle bearings, so they running very smooth.
I have here a set for my new 2110cc, so I don't have experience with them... yet 

[Lee.C]

in all seriousness, I like your plans to turn away from current tech stuff in vogue and have a go at it with "old technology", dude it had to work back then or us young guys would be looking back saying "dude, how cool that must've been to see your motor go KABANG!!!!" Right? Somebody had to to something right! 

Thanks "Dude"  My main reason for asking was I'd been reading lots of old DB&HVW and there are LOADS of ads for them and I just thought if I'm using a roller crank then why not roller rockers 

[Jim Ratto]

I remember guys insisting on Autocraft roller rockers when I worked @ BH. Those things were built like rockers for a Caterpillar diesel motor... way bulky and heavy. I have seen the Pauter rockers, and they are light, but bulky.
I've run the same Scat "skuffer tip" ratio rockers on my motors since 1991, and the tips are only polished, not worn. They probably have over 50,000 mi on them or more.
I bet the old ads show rockers that were roller bearing (needle bearing) rockers, not roller tips. Or maybe I am wrong? I know Pauter used to sell their Hi Rev rockers that looked like Ford or Chevy rockers, in the '70's.

For your "old skool" SPG hot rod, stick with VW 1.1:1 1600 rockers and grind them back to use genuine Porsche swivel feet adjusters like Sarge was saying.... you'll be very 1970's.....  just turn up "Smoke on the Water" and you'll be good to go.

[Ohio Tom (DdK)]

Just my opinion..
No disrespect to anyone.

I have used many different rockers on lots of different motors/applications.
Scuff tip style steel rockers from most manufactures work well and seem to hold up like Jim describes above.
If the geometry is setup right, you don't even need lash caps. They don't have clearance issues and they seem to last a good long time for most applications.

That said.... My all time favorite are Pauter roller tip rockers. They are aluminum construction and are great for high lift/spring combos. They tolerate all kinds of geometry screw-ups. They also are built really strong with special studs that you "must" install in the heads in order to retain them properly. They are built to take more stress than any normal rocker shaft setup. 
I recommend them for Hot street or Drag race applications.

I really like the 1.3 ratio sets for Hot street applications. They allow the use of a "Big cam" w/o having to run extra long valves and K-800 springs like a Full-On Drag motor.
You can use CB's LS-1 spring/valve setup (or do it yourself) and keep the lift under .600".
This will give you a motor that can rev to 8,000rpm reliably that doesn't kill springs or cams so fast.

That's just my way of skinning a cat...

[JS]

The Pauter roller rockers seem nice, but I´m not sure if the construction of the 3 piece rocker arm is ideal.
I like the idea of one solid arm, not 3 different pieces clamped together... Any thoughts?

[Fastbrit]

Pauter - best damned rockers in history. A no-brainer.

[Tekken]

I had to make end supports to make my 3 piece Pauter rockers stabile,with a Rockwell hardness of 63 it's a challenge  Broke the 10mm studds twice before modification,has now worked good.One sollution is to use the Pauter rocker arms on Autocraft shafts,I think they fit.

[Roman]

Be careful when you use the Pauter rockers. I have had both 1.4 and 1.5 advertized ratio. The 1.4 was like 1.46 and the 1.5 was 1.57 if I remember correct.

[Tony M]

I like my Auto Craft rockers, weight is not really a problem. Now if you want old school - Sig Erson rockers were the ones in the day - not a roller tip, but like the A/C has the adjuster at the pushrod with a nice ramp at the valve.

[Martin]

I use this setup at the moment.


Seams to work real well, no excesive load on the side of the valve stem.




I used to use these, but they wernt up the job and kept breaking.




I have motors with the 'foot' type of rockers, and so long as you set them up properly then i cant see you ever havin any propblems with them, i know i havent.

your after a good sturdy valve train that isnt got to flex and move about at high rpm, along with good quality pushrods that are also up to the job.

[Tekken]

NICE Martin,thanks for the pictures!

[Lee.C]

All very nice stuff guys but I was thinking something a little more like this 

[Zach Gomulka]

Needle bearing rockers and roller rockers are two different things... According to Berg, needle bearings don't work well on rockers because they are designed to go round and round (like a wheel bearing), not back and forth. I don't have personal experience on the matter, but it makes sense to me.

[Lee.C]

Needle bearing rockers and roller rockers are two different things... According to Berg, needle bearings don't work well on rockers because they are designed to go round and round (like a wheel bearing), not back and forth. I don't have personal experience on the matter, but it makes sense to me.

I gather that now  and its very interesting what Berg says, I personally do not agree though, I just think the rollers will give ALOT less friction than the original type bush, and less friction means less wear and less wear means fewer "partical" or dirt in the oil

Oh yeah we also used to modify the rocker on the old Ferrari V12's I worked on to needles - now thats ALOT of rollers!

[Jim Ratto]

Needle bearing rockers and roller rockers are two different things... According to Berg, needle bearings don't work well on rockers because they are designed to go round and round (like a wheel bearing), not back and forth. I don't have personal experience on the matter, but it makes sense to me.

I gather that now  and its very interesting what Berg says, I personally do not agree though, I just think the rollers will give ALOT less friction than the original type bush, and less friction means less wear and less wear means fewer "partical" or dirt in the oil

Oh yeah we also used to modify the rocker on the old Ferrari V12's I worked on to needles - now thats ALOT of rollers!

here we go again. 

Porsche studied roller vs. plain bearings for their Formula 1 1.5 (and later 2.0 and 2.2L) flat eight. They made some test bench that tested a experimental crank assy with rollers and one with plains, only to determine which created less friction. (they were looking to make 210hp from 1.5 liters and have it live, so obviously, every effort was made to lessen drag of friction). They found the plain bearing created no more friction and no more oil temperature, and hence, used a plain bearing crank. On rockers, it's all about the right bushing material, a heat treated shaft, and most importantly, getting it oiled!

[lawrence]

Keep it simple. This setup has bolts on the end of the shafts which is good and these should last you a long time. As everyone has stated the most important part is setting your valvetrain geometry correctly.

http://cbperformance.com/catalog.asp?ProductID=106

[Lee.C]

Needle bearing rockers and roller rockers are two different things... According to Berg, needle bearings don't work well on rockers because they are designed to go round and round (like a wheel bearing), not back and forth. I don't have personal experience on the matter, but it makes sense to me.

I gather that now  and its very interesting what Berg says, I personally do not agree though, I just think the rollers will give ALOT less friction than the original type bush, and less friction means less wear and less wear means fewer "partical" or dirt in the oil

Oh yeah we also used to modify the rocker on the old Ferrari V12's I worked on to needles - now thats ALOT of rollers!

here we go again. 

Porsche studied roller vs. plain bearings for their Formula 1 1.5 (and later 2.0 and 2.2L) flat eight. They made some test bench that tested a experimental crank assy with rollers and one with plains, only to determine which created less friction. (they were looking to make 210hp from 1.5 liters and have it live, so obviously, every effort was made to lessen drag of friction). They found the plain bearing created no more friction and no more oil temperature, and hence, used a plain bearing crank. On rockers, it's all about the right bushing material, a heat treated shaft, and most importantly, getting it oiled!

Yep here we go AGAIN dude 

[nicolas]

i think rollertip rockers like pauter makes are really nice. keep away from the cheap copies, they will crack.
as for needlebearings, they will indeed need good lubing otherwise they heat up and seize. bushings will heat up and not seize that easily. what i know is that needle bearings are great to work in one direction, but are not very strong regarding sideloads or other forces. i also don't know if the material off the shafts is good enough for the bearings... if it is too soft and dirt gets inb between it it could mean a lot off trouble. bronse bushings are softer material and could 'take' a bit more.


btw have you also been thinking off rollertip lifters? 

couldn't resist 

[Lee.C]

"btw have you also been thinking off rollertip lifters?"

Now theres a thought 

[Bobby Welker]

hello everyone,  newbie here.  the Pauter rollers are awesome, ease of adjustment plus they look cool , have about 5000 street miles so far.