Dyno results

[BeetleBug]

I was looking at the cal-look.com forum and the Vegas dyno event thread. The results got me thinking;

NA

188 hp / 163 torque
143 hp / no torque reading   
198 hp / 188 torque   

TURBO

500 hp / 501 torque
389 hp / 348 torque
268 hp / 232 torque
306 hp / no torque
515 hp / 504 torque
753 hp / 639 torque
460 hp / 456 torque
666 hp / no torque

First off - those turbo results are amazing! But what was going on in the NA class?

Two weeks ago I attended JPM`s dyno event in Sweden and while we only had two turbo cars there, one making 500hp and the other 260hp, we had one NA 1915ccm engine making 240hp and one other making 250hp. And what about Roman and his 285hp - street driven on pump gas?

OK - look at their Top20 list, 9 cars from Europe including #1 and #2 spot and so far this season I do believe the same Finnish STREET driven car will make the #1 spot again.

Are we taking over the NA class? 

Please start the debate:

[richie]

I was looking at the cal-look.com forum and the Vegas dyno event thread. The results got me thinking;

NA

188 hp / 163 torque
143 hp / no torque reading   
198 hp / 188 torque   

TURBO

500 hp / 501 torque
389 hp / 348 torque
268 hp / 232 torque
306 hp / no torque
515 hp / 504 torque
753 hp / 639 torque
460 hp / 456 torque
666 hp / no torque

RWHP

First off - those turbo results are amazing! But what was going on in the NA class?

Two weeks ago I attended JPM`s dyno event in Sweden and while we only had two turbo cars there, one making 500hp and the other 260hp, we had one NA 1915ccm engine making 240hp and one other making 250hp. And what about Roman and his 285hp - street driven on pump gas?

OK - look at their Top20 list, 9 cars from Europe including #1 and #2 spot and so far this season I do believe the same Finnish STREET driven car will make the #1 spot again.

Are we taking over the NA class? 

Please start the debate:

Flywheel HP

But yes to the taking over the N/A class apart from Maybe Shawn Geers???

cheers richie,uk

[Rasser]

+ some are measured with fanbelt and some without....  also good for some hp!   worth considering nonetheless.

[BeetleBug]

Richie - yes I know but take away... let`s say 15%... and "our" NA results are still better. I guess there is still some races left over there so the Geers car can still make it. Quite interesting to follow that "fight" The Finnish car drives on the streets though, using pump gas. Can the Geers car match that?

Don`t know if any of the cars dynoed without the belt over there but the 250hp run was done with the belt on and tires slipping. 

Air
Belt
Gas
Flywheel
RWHP
Different dynos

All worth taking into consideration..



 

[richie]

Richie - yes I know but take away... let`s say 15%... and "our" NA results are still better. I guess there is still some races left over there so the Geers car can still make it. Quite interesting to follow that "fight" The Finnish car drives on the streets though, using pump gas. Can the Geers car match that?

Don`t know if any of the cars dynoed without the belt over there but the 250hp run was done with the belt on and tires slipping. 

Air
Belt
Gas
Flywheel
RWHP
Different dynos

All worth taking into consideration..



 

Kalle,just pulling your leg   The reality is that everything is different,we definately see better air at certain times of year than most of the california cars will ever see.
Just another factor    
I dont think Shawn would enter his car anyway,but who knows.
Heres one for you!!!!!!!!!!!!

is a boat anchor really Cal Look??
 
 Not for me!!!!!!!!!!!

cheers richie,uk

[BeetleBug]

Richie - yes I know but take away... let`s say 15%... and "our" NA results are still better. I guess there is still some races left over there so the Geers car can still make it. Quite interesting to follow that "fight" The Finnish car drives on the streets though, using pump gas. Can the Geers car match that?

Don`t know if any of the cars dynoed without the belt over there but the 250hp run was done with the belt on and tires slipping. 

Air
Belt
Gas
Flywheel
RWHP
Different dynos

All worth taking into consideration..



 

Kalle,just pulling your leg   The reality is that everything is different,we definately see better air at certain times of year than most of the california cars will ever see.
Just another factor    
I dont think Shawn would enter his car anyway,but who knows.
Heres one for you!!!!!!!!!!!!

is a boat anchor really Cal Look??
 
 Not for me!!!!!!!!!!!

cheers richie,uk

Now we`re talking. Is turbo cal-look? 

But back to the topic - mostly we are using the same products, same heads, same IDA`s + + + + +  We do hear about extremely high NA HP number from time to time but mostly those are 100% race engines. Where is the 230 - 290hp street engines from the US? 

-K-

[Jon]

To me its a bit sad to see that turbos are taking over in the states... its probably just an coincidence in this "dyno" session, but as a whole the focus seems to have shifted from N/A to turbo. The swedes and JPM in particular makes impossible numbers seem easy.  130 horses pr liter is beyond good!
N/A is a gentleman sport  


Correct me if im wrong, but good dynos correct their hp measurements from "actual air" to "lab condition air"...

[ESH]

The 198 / 188 NA motor is a full on real street motor, as in driven to the shops and has to deal with a range of temperatures, I know that that car's been driven in temps where 100 was the base line and whilst I can't comment on the dyno results I'm confident that on the same bit of tarmac NA vs NA that car will pretty much kick arse. I guess maybe the disparity in the fact that all their turbo HP is up and their NA HP is down may come from the fact that a turbo will make its own air where as NA sucks what's there and Vegas is in the desert, none of that dense Scandinavian air.

[louisb]

To me its a bit sad to see that turbos are taking over in the states... its probably just an coincidence in this "dyno" session, but as a whole the focus seems to have shifted from N/A to turbo. The swedes and JPM in particular makes impossible numbers seem easy.  130 horses pr liter is beyond good!
N/A is a gentleman sport 


Correct me if im wrong, but good dynos correct their hp measurements from "actual air" to "lab condition air"...

On the bright side, the cost of 48 idas is dropping like a rock. Seen several sets for under $700 recently. With the great exchange rate you guys should be snapping them up.

--louis

PS: Any maroon can make power with a turbo, it takes a real man to make power with carbs. 

[Dominick Luppino]

My Unlimited Street engine made 315hp @ 296tq It's a 2276cc with 48IDAs and alot of Nitrous, it also finished in the runner up spot in Unlimited Street.

[BeetleBug]

My Unlimited Street engine made 315hp @ 296tq It's a 2276cc with 48IDAs and alot of Nitrous, it also finished in the runner up spot in Unlimited Street.

Thank you for replying Dominick and congrats with the runner up spot. I guess it is Nitrous 1 - Turbo 1 now? 

 Would you like to share with us your spec`s since I do know that many are considering to start playing with nitrous.

Best rgs
BB

[richie]

--louis

PS: Any maroon can make power with a turbo, it takes a real man to make power with carbs. 

is that slang?

Whats a maroon?
Guess you got a turbo car then?

cheers richie,uk

[Fasterbrit]

--louis

PS: Any maroon can make power with a turbo, it takes a real man to make power with carbs. 

is that slang?

Whats a maroon?
Guess you got a turbo car then?

cheers richie,uk

Hey quit whining you maroon
matt keene

[richie]

To me its a bit sad to see that turbos are taking over in the states... its probably just an coincidence in this "dyno" session, but as a whole the focus seems to have shifted from N/A to turbo. The swedes and JPM in particular makes impossible numbers seem easy.  130 horses pr liter is beyond good!
N/A is a gentleman sport  


Correct me if im wrong, but good dynos correct their hp measurements from "actual air" to "lab condition air"...

Jon,I am fairly sure the turbo cars were specifically invited to make a good impression,it wasnt a coincedence.It was ment to be that way,makes better reading and more impressive for a magazine article

I am uncertain if the dyno corrects for air,more like the operator corrects for his building skills or lack of them sometimes

i have often wondered about gear ratios and the affect they have on readings,genrally they seem to use 3rd gear,now this could vary hugely from car to car,surely the lower the ratio the more torque? Unless they are all done with a 1/1 ratio gear with the same tyre size then surely this changes the readings? anyone know for sure?   cheers richie,uk


PS Kalle,No proberly not but then neither is chrome but it doesnt seem to bother a million+ owners of "Cal-Look" cars particularly over here

[Jon]

I am uncertain if the dyno corrects for air, more like the operator corrects for his building skills or lack of them sometimes

Well, I know for a Fact that JPMs dyno calibrates for the air, otherwise the readings would be of no help to him when using a dyno for its intended purpose, TUNING engines.

i have often wondered about gear ratios and the affect they have on readings, generally they seem to use 3rd gear,now this could vary hugely from car to car, surely the lower the ratio the more torque? Unless they are all done with a 1/1 ratio gear with the same tyre size then surely this changes the readings? anyone know for sure?   cheers richie,uk

Usually the fourth gear is used as it gives the reading a better resolution, the dyno also reads the RPM of the engine, and between that and the speed of the wheels it should find out the total ratio. But I don’t know.  Another reason for using third gear might also be the safety rating on the rollers.

PS Kalle,No proberly not but then neither is chrome but it doesnt seem to bother a million+ owners of "Cal-Look" cars particularly over here

Its like Stan/Loretta in Life of Brian... fights for the RIGHT to give birth, even thou its genetically impossible....  They fight for the right to call it cal-look     <- THIS IS A JOKE!!!

[Neil Davies]

I've wondered about the differences in dynos and rolling roads a lot - I thikn the fairest dyno shoot out was the one that VW Trends ran, where all the engines were put on the same dyno and tested by the same operator. Obviously the air would change during the day, but the other factors would be the same.

[richie]

I am uncertain if the dyno corrects for air, more like the operator corrects for his building skills or lack of them sometimes

Well, I know for a Fact that JPMs dyno calibrates for the air, otherwise the readings would be of no help to him when using a dyno for its intended purpose, TUNING engines.

i have often wondered about gear ratios and the affect they have on readings, generally they seem to use 3rd gear,now this could vary hugely from car to car, surely the lower the ratio the more torque? Unless they are all done with a 1/1 ratio gear with the same tyre size then surely this changes the readings? anyone know for sure?   cheers richie,uk

Usually the fourth gear is used as it gives the reading a better resolution, the dyno also reads the RPM of the engine, and between that and the speed of the wheels it should find out the total ratio. But I don’t know.  Another reason for using third gear might also be the safety rating on the rollers.

PS Kalle,No proberly not but then neither is chrome but it doesnt seem to bother a million+ owners of "Cal-Look" cars particularly over here

Its like Stan/Loretta in Life of Brian... fights for the RIGHT to give birth, even thou its genetically impossible....  They fight for the right to call it cal-look     <- THIS IS A JOKE!!!

Jon,wasnt JPM dyno I was thinking of,many of the dynoes I have seen over the pond[mainly engine dynoes,not roling roads] seem to rely on the operator input for such things,causing misleading infomation and figures,the track is still the best dyno,but even then the air at say Gardermoen will mean the car should run quicker than say Vegas.

I would be interested to know if the gear ratio/rpm is used to input info on JPMs dyno that actually affects the hp reading,will look into this,cheers richie,uk

[louisb]

--louis

PS: Any maroon can make power with a turbo, it takes a real man to make power with carbs. 

is that slang?

Whats a maroon?


cheers richie,uk

You must not have watched Bugs Bunny as a kid. maroon = moron 

--louis

[Dominick Luppino]

2276cc Specifications

Autocraft engine case, 12mm head studs
82mm BUGPACK wedgemated crank
Pauter Aluminum rods 5.400
94mm Wiseco Pistons w/J&E wrist pins
Heads Up Performance steel billet cam   It’s like an FK-87
CB Comp E heads reworked by Heads Up Performance, 48x38 w/K-800 springs
9.5 to 1 comp.
Berg 1.4 rockers
Berg 1 ¾ header with a custom made duel 2 ½” bullet mufflers
MSD Dist & 7 AL-2 box with a 3 stage retard box
Custom made Nitrous system made by Dave Perkins & I using a NOS Pro Sportsman fogger kit modified
Two Holley Black fuel pumps one for the engine, one for the Nitrous system using ½ line to the regulators.

340hp plus at the flywheel   315 at the Dyno Day to the rear tires running very rich.

[Roman]

JPM's dyno is known in Sweden for it's low readings. I have spoken to several tuners in his area.
His dyno is a Bosch unit and it reads the moment of the inertia of two heavy rolls. This is known to be the most exact way to measure on a rolling road. This dyno also doeas a roll out to measure the transmission power loss. 
This is very important as the power losses is depending on the wheel speed and rpm and it is not linear.
This is the one of the reasons why most dyno operators use third gear: At least on the reading the car has more HP and the that is what the customer likes to see.

Last year I dynoed my engine to 228 hp on JPM's dyno. I ran 11.290 - 116 mph with a 1700 lbs car including driver.
On the wallace racing calulator:
http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php
It should have made 11.38 SEK on the HP from ET calculator
HP from MPH at the same calculator: 218 hp
HP from ET and weight from the calculator: 233 hp.
The dyno can't be that far away, right?

[SSRT]

My NA race engine made 283 hp on JPMs rolls, but made only 237 hp on another roll in Norway... It seems like theres a lot of differense between most of the rolls I have tried!

[Roman]

My NA race engine made 283 hp on JPMs rolls, but made only 237 hp on another roll in Norway... It seems like theres a lot of differense between most of the rolls I have tried!

Sounds like JPM:S old race engine, the one that is in a Rallycross car in Norway now? 237 sounds VERY low for that engine - it made 10.03 on the quarter. How long time and how many races between the two dyno readings? Maybe major leakdown?

[SSRT]

My NA race engine made 283 hp on JPMs rolls, but made only 237 hp on another roll in Norway... It seems like theres a lot of differense between most of the rolls I have tried!

Sounds like JPM:S old race engine, the one that is in a Rallycross car in Norway now? 237 sounds VERY low for that engine - it made 10.03 on the quarter. How long time and how many races between the two dyno readings? Maybe major leakdown?

Thats right, same engine. Not raced between the two readings (rallycross), but it made 283 @ ca 8100 on JPMs, and 237 @ 6610 rpms on a almost new SUN dyno. The curve flatten out at 6600 on the SUN. Thats the different between thous two dynos. I have tryed many of my engines on the same dyno, and it never produses any more power over 7000, the best was 244 hp at 6530 (3 ltr t-4 ) but all of them screemd 8600 rpms or more, spes. JPMs old engine that still is the wildest 2.4 I have tried. no doupt!!! a masterpiece!

[Roman]

Weird...
Maybe we should do a dyno test on STT Emtecs dyno?
STT is a local company that makes Emission systems and engine development for Mitsubishi and emission systems for heavy vehicles.
Accuracy +/- 0.2% up to 10 000 rpm!! That is /- 0.6 hp on a 300 hp engine. 
http://www.sttemtec.com/p238/files/Spec_testcell_1.pdf

[richie]

This is the one of the reasons why most dyno operators use third gear: At least on the reading the car has more HP and the that is what the customer likes to see.

These were my thoughts,3rd gear = higher reading

Last year I dynoed my engine to 228 hp on JPM's dyno. I ran 11.290 - 116 mph with a 1700 lbs car including driver.
On the wallace racing calulator:
http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php
It should have made 11.38 SEK on the HP from ET calculator
HP from MPH at the same calculator: 218 hp
HP from ET and weight from the calculator: 233 hp.
The dyno can't be that far away, right?

Interesting,last time I dynoed my car was in Belgium for the DAS week a couple of years ago,it made 471 flwheel hP on a rolling road using 3rd gear,now using your wallace calc it makes,well lets say at little more using the mph& weight which I feel gives the most accurate info.The wallace calc is rwhp though isnt it?

cheers richie,uk

[Roman]

The wallace calc is rwhp though isnt it?

Actually I don't know but it is rather OK if it is flywheel HP. If it is RWHP I had 233 rwhp on a street driven N/A 2387 with 044 heads. A bit too good to be true!

[richie]

The wallace calc is rwhp though isnt it?

Actually I don't know but it is rather OK if it is flywheel HP. If it is RWHP I had 233 rwhp on a street driven N/A 2387 with 044 heads. A bit too good to be true!

Mmmm,might be a bit optomistic for you old set up.
Anyway back to the origional topic,why are you alll bothering with IDAS,there shite

cheers richie,uk

[Roman]

Yes, they are!
EFI is the way to go and everybody knows that hairdryers are for girls!

[Martin Greaves]

Oh dont you start that on here.

[richie]

Yes, they are!
EFI is the way to go and everybody knows that hairdryers are for girls!

Or men with long hair

Glad you have sen the light at the end of the tunnel Roman

cheers richie