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Author Topic: Recipe for a mean sounding VW ?  (Read 34220 times)
Jim Ratto
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« Reply #90 on: April 22, 2013, 19:13:41 pm »

I don't want to take this off topic too much, but I think typically Italian cars, though fairly vocal thru induction, are known for their strident, howling exhaust notes. I tend to think us VW guys get off on intake noise more so than a raspy, nasty exhaust note. Like Mark H used to talk about... he purposely ran a Super Turbo over a Magnaflow "dune buggy muffler" so he could get a better grasp on intake growl. I agree with Mark. The Magnaflows sound OK but they are a bit "straight pipey", I prefer the Super Turbo sound.
I know overlap/reversion has a huge influence on intake sound. In 1988, @ 17 yr old I was driving my '67 around with stock cammed 1641 with single 36DRLA on IR manifold. A few months later, the same motor had .470" @ valve and 256' @ .050" and the growl from the carburetor was sonic. Prior to this, with the stock cam, the carbureotr merely "hissed" @ idle and gasped when the throttles opened. With the big cam, the carburetor growled @ idle and literally barked when the throttles were cracked.
I think to really sweeten the "sound" we need airspeed, compression and cam timing advance.
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hotrodsurplus
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It's not how fast you go; it's how you go fast.


« Reply #91 on: April 22, 2013, 19:18:40 pm »

What impact will the shape of the stacks have on the sound?

Reversion plays a significant role in induction honk, AKA Alfa Song if you spent any time around Italian cars.


A lot of time. That's my problem.

Dude, if you're complaining about excessive induction honk then we can't be friends. That's like complaining that rich, hot chicks with loose morals find you irresistible. Smiley

It should be noted that compression ratio can also influence reversion. A cylinder with insufficient CR has a very low rate of pressure decay. It's usually most prominent during the combustion stroke but as it's been explained to me it can also overwhelm the exhaust tract sufficiently to maintain some pressure in the cylinder at the end of the exhaust stroke.  
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Jim Ratto
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« Reply #92 on: April 22, 2013, 19:47:26 pm »

A lot of my life has been directed in search of Italian engine sounds. While I could have been making money, friends, moving forward in life, instead I'm chasing 365GTB/4's and LP400's on the freeway or nursing my '84 GTV6 around the foothills of CA's oak dotted hills. I think we'll get along just fine,

 Cool
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hotrodsurplus
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It's not how fast you go; it's how you go fast.


« Reply #93 on: April 22, 2013, 20:00:28 pm »

A lot of my life has been directed in search of Italian engine sounds. While I could have been making money, friends, moving forward in life, instead I'm chasing 365GTB/4's and LP400's on the freeway or nursing my '84 GTV6 around the foothills of CA's oak dotted hills. I think we'll get along just fine,

 Cool

I'm relieved.

My dad's a bit of an Alfisti--he sold them in the '60s and '70s and I have the backlit dealer sign (a pre-'70 Milano badge) in my garage. We even got to go to the Alfa museum in Milan--invite-only deal and only if you know people. Over the years we had a '76 GTV, a '77 Alfetta GT, and a few loaner cars. Those Spica-injected cars with the coffee-can filter housings make glorious noise.

And yeah, you're right about the Italian exhaust note. It's more of a raspy shriek almost as if there's something buzzing in the muffler. You might not like the association but the stock exhaust system on the AE86 Corollas shrieked similarly when you removed the cat con...which is the first thing I did when I bought my the '86 that my dad special ordered. Of course it didn't hurt that the engine redlined at 8,000rpm.


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Jim Ratto
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« Reply #94 on: April 22, 2013, 20:16:58 pm »

I grew up in back seat of '75 2000GTV (with Abarth muffler), '77 Alfetta (with Ansa rear twin pipe).
Ain't no cure for that childhood abuse....

back to VW sound topic.... what causes the pronounced intake noise "underneath" the carburetors/injector stacks? Is it initial opening of intake valve (in some cases, well before TDC, while exhaust stroke is cleansing cylinder and there is still >atm pressure in cylinder), where the intake tract "becomes" and exhaust stack (due to cyl press, where piston is between BDC and TDC...etc), or is it the "draw" of postive>increasing negative>back to positive cylinder pressure during intake stroke? Or is it the combination, along with the power/exhaust cycles, and the (sometimes) open path from intake stack to tailpipe that "sings"? Yep, I can see how CR and overlap can "tune" the sound. I ran a 288' (0.050") with 11.5:1 in the early 2000's with 48's, etc in my '67, and it was one of the most vocal engines I can remember not only in my VW but in other big motor'd VW's as well.
My current 94 x 78 with 271' (0.050), advanced 4 deg, and 9.9:1, I think sounds even sharper and more vociferous though. My favorite motor yet. Like I alluded to pages ago, to me, more important than 1/4 e.t., mph, is how the car reacts when I put a demand on it, and its "voice." I'd trade explosive throtle repsonse at low-mid rpm for a limb, though I want that "come on the cam" nasal howl @ 4000-5000rpm as well. This motor (cam, mostly) does that.
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Zach Gomulka
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« Reply #95 on: April 22, 2013, 20:23:23 pm »

IDF's and Dellorto's have that annoying chirp...

IDFs chirp?

DRLAs chirp because of that slot machined in the throttle-bore base. Fill that with silicone (or use the special base gaskets) and the chirp magically disappears. Never once have I heard an IDF chirp.



My 44's did. Maybe not the exact same tone as a Dell, but definitely similar.
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Born in the '80s, stuck in the '70s.
hotrodsurplus
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« Reply #96 on: April 23, 2013, 00:07:08 am »

I grew up in back seat of '75 2000GTV (with Abarth muffler), '77 Alfetta (with Ansa rear twin pipe).
Ain't no cure for that childhood abuse....

Out of all the cars my dad had when I was a kid (and boy he had some good ones) I remember the '77 Alfa sedan the most. It wasn't the fastest but it was a lot of fun. I'm surprised (and frankly relieved) that I didn't get into Italian cars.

Is it initial opening of intake valve (in some cases, well before TDC, while exhaust stroke is cleansing cylinder and there is still >atm pressure in cylinder), where the intake tract "becomes" and exhaust stack (due to cyl press, where piston is between BDC and TDC...etc), or is it the "draw" of postive>increasing negative>back to positive cylinder pressure during intake stroke?

I would defer to someone who actually has real-time experience with camshaft events to a greater degree but I would imagine that both pressure signals translate to sound to one degree or another. Take an FK-41 cam. It opens the intake valve when the crank is at 14* BTDC. That's a pretty short-duration cam and I would imagine that it wouldn't create much reversion. Conversely, a W-125 opens the intake at 26* BTDC. So it creates considerably more reversion at low speeds where the intake charge velocity can't over come it. I know from experience that wilder cams like that are a bit more honky, so to speak. Even more extreme, an FK-89 opens the intake valve at a whopping 36* BTDC and we all know what kind of sounds engines with THOSE cams make at low-mid-range speeds.

I would also imagine that the closing event has something to do with it. The air doesn't just stop moving when the valve closes. It bounces off the back of the valve and proceeds back up the manifold and carburetor.

Think about how an organ pipe works. The 'resonance' results from pressure waves bouncing back and forth in the pipe. Take an empty beer bottle and repeatedly smack the opening. It'll make a soft 'boink, boink, boink' sound. That's close to the resonance created by rapid changes in pressure.

Quote
Or is it the combination, along with the power/exhaust cycles, and the (sometimes) open path from intake stack to tailpipe that "sings"?


Well if you look at it, both the intake tract and the exhaust system are technically tuneable. In our cases it's not very feasible--the intake tracts would be long--like 20 to 22 inches long. That's the basis for ram tuning--you tune the resonant frequency of the intake to match the resonant frequency of the engine at its peak torque. That's why intake runners on modern injected cars are so long--they're tuning for a peak torque at like 3,000rpm.

Most of us are pretty familiar with exhaust tuning (though few people actually exploit it). The pipes resonance should match the engine's peak torque.

Both tuning methods exploit the elastic nature of air and resonant frequencies. Get them all right and you can make a lot of power. It's just really tough to do.

Quote
My current 94 x 78 with 271' (0.050), advanced 4 deg, and 9.9:1, I think sounds even sharper and more vociferous though.

Well advancing the cam opens the intake valve sooner so that creates the potential for reversion at lower speeds. That could be one. And the cam also shuts the intake valve sooner by duration AND advance. Because the intake shuts before the piston moves too far up the cylinder then chances are that the column of air moving down the intake tract is moving at quite a velocity when it bounces off the back of the valve.

Of course now I'm just pulling things out of my ass but it sort of makes sense if you think of the dynamics.

Quote
Like I alluded to pages ago, to me, more important than 1/4 e.t., mph, is how the car reacts when I put a demand on it, and its "voice." I'd trade explosive throtle repsonse at low-mid rpm for a limb, though I want that "come on the cam" nasal howl @ 4000-5000rpm as well. This motor (cam, mostly) does that.


Well here's something to ponder. Where does that cam make its peak torque? I noticed that my w110-cammed 2110 honked good from 3,000 to 4,000rpm. The W110 makes peak torque at about 3,500rpm (mine certainly did). It wasn't super loud but it was good and growly almost as if you could hear each induction event. After that the engine sort of screamed up to 6,000rpm.

Naturally a longer duration moves the peak torque to a faster engine speed. And at those speeds the engine noise is likely to drown out the induction noise, at least from inside the car. I distinctly remember what a big-cam engine sounds like from a block away at the street races, though. At lower speeds the intake howls more than the exhaust.


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Chris Shelton. Professional liar.
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« Reply #97 on: April 23, 2013, 17:40:50 pm »

One of my favorites:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/pdwvRedHVM8" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/pdwvRedHVM8</a>

That's mean sound for me, hope you will agree...  Cool
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dr.aircooled
bilboa2
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« Reply #98 on: April 23, 2013, 19:53:42 pm »

The unique motor sound that I remember well is berg's "merlin'  motor in the black car.  2610 cc. (?), 94 x 95..roller cam. The sound at idle was so deep. I also remember the distinct sound heard from the pits meant gary in the burnout box. AWESOME, anybody have sound, or vidio's ?
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TexasTom
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12.58@106, 7.89@89 Texas Motorplex 10/18/09


« Reply #99 on: April 26, 2013, 15:31:13 pm »

You pinned it for me too, Bill!

I remember Gary's trademark burnouts like it was yesterday. Building up from maybe 5000 rpm slowly and finally reaching a pitch probably a full octave over anything else I've ever heard! MUSIC.
All that without a 2 step, just pure control ...

TxT
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Jim Ratto
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« Reply #100 on: April 26, 2013, 16:34:20 pm »

/\ yep I remember hearing F.I. Merlin run @ Sacramento, sent chills down my spine. Nothing else sounded as good.
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