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Berg traction bar tips
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Topic: Berg traction bar tips (Read 47438 times)
javabug
Hero Member
Posts: 2103
WHAT'S UP WID DA BOOM BOOM???
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #60 on:
June 21, 2011, 17:31:14 pm »
I like your thinking.
Logged
Mike H.
Sven was right.
Lids
Hero Member
Posts: 3527
show me the chedder
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #61 on:
June 21, 2011, 19:25:45 pm »
The only possible problem with this is that you have now created a lever that could rip the bolts out.
If you kept the original design the rod acted vertically through the bolts thus no distance from direction of force, hence no moment and no lever.
Logged
If there's enough horse shit around, there must be a pony!
Buy your ciderberry here.
http://www.thatcherscider.co.uk/
Fiatdude
Hero Member
Posts: 1823
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #62 on:
June 21, 2011, 19:52:58 pm »
Yep -- those brackets need to installed vertically
Logged
Fiat -- GONE
Ovalholio -- GONE
Ghia -- -- It's going
Get lost for an evening or two --
http://selvedgeyard.com/
Remember, as you travel the highway of life,
For every mile of road, there is 2 miles of ditch
JS
Hero Member
Posts: 1628
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #63 on:
June 21, 2011, 20:51:52 pm »
Agreed, the bracket could also twist...
Logged
Signature.
65bug
Sr. Member
Posts: 264
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #64 on:
June 21, 2011, 21:07:47 pm »
Guys,
You mean to tell me people have been mounting their traction bar off on hole(the stock factory one) with no brackets at all. And it's held for years!!!! I'll be the first to admit it if they ever move. For now, I will be known as THE GUY WITH THE HORIZONTAL TRACTION BAR MOUNTS......................
Logged
RhoadsVW
Full Member
Posts: 177
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #65 on:
June 21, 2011, 21:18:22 pm »
It won't move or do anything but work. I had mine that way except underneath the bumper bracing using the stock hole that's there. And I had only one bolt holding mine on with the bracket wedged against the bumper bracing. And you also have it into the double thickness of the sheet metal. Looks good. You shouldn't have any problems. Dave Rholads
Logged
Der Renwagen Fuhrers
65bug
Sr. Member
Posts: 264
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #66 on:
June 21, 2011, 21:21:55 pm »
Thank you Dave Roads! I do not understand how it could be a "Lever" as it's resting on the entire bumper bracket. With two bolts through it. It's dispersing the load ALL OVER THE PLACE......................................
Logged
danny gabbard
Hero Member
Posts: 2909
gabfab
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #67 on:
June 21, 2011, 22:25:18 pm »
If worried, Make a doubler plate for back side. Plus your going through two layer's of sheetmetal rather than the single one if mounted vertical.
Logged
A poor craftsman, Blame's it on poor tools. GAB-FAB shop # 775 246-3069
Lids
Hero Member
Posts: 3527
show me the chedder
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #68 on:
June 22, 2011, 06:10:58 am »
Quote from: 65bug on June 21, 2011, 21:21:55 pm
Thank you Dave Roads! I do not understand how it could be a "Lever" as it's resting on the entire bumper bracket. With two bolts through it. It's dispersing the load ALL OVER THE PLACE......................................
I never said it would be a problem, just that it might. It is a leaver as the direction of force is not acting through the centre of the mounting position, so the when the engine pushes down on launch the threaded bolt will pull down on the bracket just like a door handle. The fact it is supported by the bracket doesn't change this fact, but the bracket probably helps by having a higher shear force than the downward force and hence will stay there.
Logged
If there's enough horse shit around, there must be a pony!
Buy your ciderberry here.
http://www.thatcherscider.co.uk/
Kaferdog
DKK
Hero Member
Posts: 652
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #69 on:
June 22, 2011, 07:04:24 am »
How are the bolts on the other side ...?...any pics...?
Logged
"I am on a drug, it's called 'Volkswagen.' It's not available 'cause if you try it once you will die. Your face will melt off, and children will weep over your exploded body."
BeetleBug
Hero Member
Posts: 2836
Snabba grabben...
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #70 on:
June 22, 2011, 08:55:25 am »
3 pages of replies just for mounting a traction bar. Did anyone of you take a good look at the SCC 2009 video where Skinne takes you on a guided tour under his 8.60 - 165 mph street car? For those of you that have not had the chance to watch the video you would have noticed that he removed the two frame/pan forks and mounts the entire engine + Porsche G50 gearbox using only the front (nose) mount in addition to a homemade rear mount to the inner fenders of his oval. That`s it.
I`m using the single hole mentioned earlier in this thread after some small modifications to the two bent arms and it works. There is absolutely no signs of wear or tear to the hole and no wheel vibrations. You do not put a lot of tension to the bar, it is not there to support the engine, only to prevent it moving down when you drop the clutch at 7000+ rpms. A silly test.. put your foot on your fatboy exhaust and put some weight on it. Does the engine move? Yes and you have a problem when you`re going to do a proper launch.
A better solution would be to copy Skinne without removing the frame/pan forks using a homemade t2 style bar bolted to the engine case and then to your inner fenders using the bumper mounts if they are rust free.
[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]
[ Attachment: You are not allowed to view attachments ]
-BB-
Logged
10.41 - 100ci - 1641ccm - 400hp
65bug
Sr. Member
Posts: 264
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #71 on:
June 22, 2011, 14:07:35 pm »
beetlebug,
hmmmmmm, that custom job is mounted very similar to mine. Another lever?. I am putting out about 200 HP. I honestly do not think it will be a problem. When I lined my bracket up vertically, it did not sit flat. Second, it did not lay on the bumper ledge at all. Not even close. Third, it would have only been bolted through a single piece of sheet metal. Fourth, I did not want to have to drill through my engine compartment. That would have bothered me. So this was MY solution. Dave Rhoads verified it, as it was his solution too.
Kaferdog,
Just regular nuts on the other ends with flat washers then lock washers.
Danny,
No worries here. Thanks
Logged
BeetleBug
Hero Member
Posts: 2836
Snabba grabben...
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #72 on:
June 22, 2011, 14:20:29 pm »
Not sure why you feel like you have to answer me that way as I`m sure you`re solution will work. I have twice the power you have and it works for me with my single, original hole kinda thing
Quote from: 65bug on June 22, 2011, 14:07:35 pm
beetlebug,
hmmmmmm, that custom job is mounted very similar to mine. Another lever?. I am putting out about 200 HP. I honestly do not think it will be a problem. When I lined my bracket up vertically, it did not sit flat. Second, it did not lay on the bumper ledge at all. Not even close. Third, it would have only been bolted through a single piece of sheet metal. Fourth, I did not want to have to drill through my engine compartment. That would have bothered me. So this was MY solution. Dave Rhoads verified it, as it was his solution too.
Kaferdog,
Just regular nuts on the other ends with flat washers then lock washers.
Danny,
No worries here. Thanks
Logged
10.41 - 100ci - 1641ccm - 400hp
Rennsurfer
Hero Member
Posts: 7391
D.B.O. Not a club; a state of mind.
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #73 on:
June 22, 2011, 14:34:53 pm »
Great post, BeetleBug and really like the looks of that traction bar.
Logged
"You can only scramble an egg so many ways."
~Sarge
Zach Gomulka
Hero Member
Posts: 6991
Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining.
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #74 on:
June 22, 2011, 14:43:20 pm »
I do like the fact that the hardware isn't showing in the engine compartment
Logged
Born in the '80s, stuck in the '70s.
Diederick/DVK
Hero Member
Posts: 3692
They're never done till they're sold
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #75 on:
June 22, 2011, 14:52:06 pm »
Kalle, are you trying to plug the SCC videos in this topic?
Logged
Diederick
-
Proud member of:
DVK ~
Der Vollgas Kreuzers
BeetleBug
Hero Member
Posts: 2836
Snabba grabben...
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #76 on:
June 22, 2011, 14:57:35 pm »
Dam..was it so obvious
Quote from: 67-indeed/DVK on June 22, 2011, 14:52:06 pm
Kalle, are you trying to plug the SCC videos in this topic?
Logged
10.41 - 100ci - 1641ccm - 400hp
Fiatdude
Hero Member
Posts: 1823
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #77 on:
June 22, 2011, 15:50:01 pm »
The thought and workmanship in both of those brackets is fantastic
Quote from: 65bug on June 21, 2011, 21:21:55 pm
Thank you Dave Roads! I do not understand how it could be a "Lever" as it's resting on the entire bumper bracket. With two bolts through it. It's dispersing the load ALL OVER THE PLACE......................................
I know for a lot of you guys we are not talking about huge HP/Torque engines, but let me try to explain explain why Horizontal mounting is not as good as vertical mounting. The most important force involved here is the shearing at where the bolts are located, this will cause, in severe situations, damage to either the bolts or the sheet metal supporting/anchoring the bolts.
When the bracket is mounted up & down/vertically you have the downward force being placed equally on both bolts. with both bolts sharing the load.
But when the bracket is mounted horizontally you end up with a twisting force being placed onto the bracket and the bolt in the middle of the bracket then absorbing MOST of the downward energy and the other bolt acting more as a fulcrum than an anchor. -- If you doubt me, loosen up the bolts on the bracket until the bracket is just barely attached then pull down on the bar. you will even probably see the bar at end where it is bolted get twisted upward. This is because of some of the energy is transmitted to that bolt while the bolt in the middle is being the fulcrum. In any case, the forces being exerted on the middle bolt are multiplied greatly in the horizontal mounting.
But this argument is mute it your not generating enough energy onto that bracket to cause any damage., or you've built a bracket that is designed at overkill.
«
Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 16:12:30 pm by Fiatdude
»
Logged
Fiat -- GONE
Ovalholio -- GONE
Ghia -- -- It's going
Get lost for an evening or two --
http://selvedgeyard.com/
Remember, as you travel the highway of life,
For every mile of road, there is 2 miles of ditch
Kaferdog
DKK
Hero Member
Posts: 652
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #78 on:
June 22, 2011, 17:33:05 pm »
Quote from: 65bug on June 22, 2011, 14:07:35 pm
Kaferdog,
Just regular nuts on the other ends with flat washers then lock washers.
I guess what I was trying to say was ......Where do they "show" on the ""Other side".....Any pics ?
«
Last Edit: June 22, 2011, 17:36:04 pm by Kaferdog
»
Logged
"I am on a drug, it's called 'Volkswagen.' It's not available 'cause if you try it once you will die. Your face will melt off, and children will weep over your exploded body."
cassa
Jr. Member
Posts: 59
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #79 on:
June 22, 2011, 20:16:53 pm »
Quote from: BeetleBug on June 22, 2011, 08:55:25 am
3 pages of replies just for mounting a traction bar. Did anyone of you take a good look at the SCC 2009 video where Skinne takes you on a guided tour under his 8.60 - 165 mph street car? For those of you that have not had the chance to watch the video you would have noticed that he removed the two frame/pan forks and mounts the entire engine + Porsche G50 gearbox using only the front (nose) mount in addition to a homemade rear mount to the inner fenders of his oval. That`s it.
I`m using the single hole mentioned earlier in this thread after some small modifications to the two bent arms and it works. There is absolutely no signs of wear or tear to the hole and no wheel vibrations. You do not put a lot of tension to the bar, it is not there to support the engine, only to prevent it moving down when you drop the clutch at 7000+ rpms. A silly test.. put your foot on your fatboy exhaust and put some weight on it. Does the engine move? Yes and you have a problem when you`re going to do a proper launch.
A better solution would be to copy Skinne without removing the frame/pan forks using a homemade t2 style bar bolted to the engine case and then to your inner fenders using the bumper mounts if they are rust free.
-BB-
I have mocked up a similar traktion bar for my 67. I dont have room for a CSP bar, and dont know if it will do the job.
I use 40x20mm bar with brackets in the bumper bracket. Brackets in picture only for mock-up
reg
c
Logged
65bug
Sr. Member
Posts: 264
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #80 on:
June 23, 2011, 05:00:22 am »
beetlebug,
That reply about the lever was not directed at you.
And I know there's not enough force to even phase it. That's why I felt it was a viable alternative and mounted it that way. IT also rests flatter against the panel that way vs. vertically. I would be more concerned with the body taking a hit then anything. And It's double walled there where I drilled.
I understand what you guys are saying about the pivot effect. However, the right side of the bolt closest to the tab is laying up against the bumper support. And the left side of the right bolt.............................well HAS ANOTHER BOLT IN IT. So it's held down on both ends. I dont think it's ever going anywhere. So really there is no pivot effect. It's been eliminated.
There is more stress concentrated in one area now for sure. But I think it's still overkill and should work fine.
Kaferdog, I will get a pic for you as soon as I can. I worked about 14 hours today. I can tell you it's a small area in there where they fit. Directly below the shelf in the engine bay. I will have to crawl up under the car to get you a pic.
Glad to see beetle bugs pics of that NICE CUSTOM set up is mounted similar to mine....................
Logged
Bruce
Hero Member
Posts: 1417
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #81 on:
June 23, 2011, 05:15:42 am »
Quote from: Fiatdude on June 22, 2011, 15:50:01 pm
The most important force involved here is the shearing at where the bolts are located, this will cause, in severe situations, damage to either the bolts or the sheet metal supporting/anchoring the bolts.
This isn't the case. Except for a few specialized bolts, there aren't any bolts that are in shear on a car.
The bracket that's being talked about with the 2 bolts stays put due to the large amount of friction between the bracket and the body of the car. This friction is created due to the tension in the bolts. In order for those bolts to be in shear, the bracket would have to slip due to the applied load until the bracket contacts the bolts. Anytime you have a bracket that slips, you either don't have the bolts tight enough, or they're too small.
Logged
Jon
Administrator
Hero Member
Posts: 3214
12,3@174km/t at Gardermoen 2008
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #82 on:
June 23, 2011, 10:15:44 am »
Quote from: Bruce on June 23, 2011, 05:15:42 am
Except for a few specialized bolts, there aren't any bolts that are in shear on a car.
There is a nugget of gold in any thread.
About the hanging of a engine/gearbox unit.
Ever tried to break something like a twig or a board of wood in two? If you use only your hands you will have a tough time doing it, introduce your knee into the task and you do it without problems.
Meaning more supports are not necessarily good if they are placed wrong.
Rumor
: You can tell how much power a car fitted with a Berg traction has by measuring the gap of the engine lid?
Logged
Grumpy old men have signatures like this.
early-air
Jr. Member
Posts: 73
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #83 on:
June 25, 2011, 12:08:10 pm »
will the traction bar work on a ghia? or will it distort the body? any views on this?
Logged
JG54 greenhearts
Lee.C
Hero Member
Posts: 6458
I might be an Idiot but I'm not an Arsehole!
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #84 on:
June 25, 2011, 15:18:34 pm »
Quote from: JHU on June 23, 2011, 10:15:44 am
Quote from: Bruce on June 23, 2011, 05:15:42 am
Except for a few specialized bolts, there aren't any bolts that are in shear on a car.
There is a nugget of gold in any thread.
About the hanging of a engine/gearbox unit.
Ever tried to break something like a twig or a board of wood in two? If you use only your hands you will have a tough time doing it, introduce your knee into the task and you do it without problems.
Meaning more supports are not necessarily good if they are placed wrong.
Rumor
: You can tell how much power a car fitted with a Berg traction has by measuring the gap of the engine lid?
[/q
hehehehehhhehehehehee
Logged
You either "Get It" or you don't......
65bug
Sr. Member
Posts: 264
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #85 on:
June 25, 2011, 23:40:59 pm »
early-air,
Call Gene Berg. I can bet they have a traction bar for your Ghia! They are heavy duty and mine is making a huge difference! You could of course make your own. Does not seem to be too big a deal. BRUCE TWEDDLE GETS MY VOTE FOR NEW CAL LOOK LOUNGE MODERATOR
Thank you Bruce!
Logged
Fiatdude
Hero Member
Posts: 1823
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #86 on:
June 26, 2011, 04:36:49 am »
Quote from: cassa on June 22, 2011, 20:16:53 pm
Quote from: BeetleBug on June 22, 2011, 08:55:25 am
3 pages of replies just for mounting a traction bar. Did anyone of you take a good look at the SCC 2009 video where Skinne takes you on a guided tour under his 8.60 - 165 mph street car? For those of you that have not had the chance to watch the video you would have noticed that he removed the two frame/pan forks and mounts the entire engine + Porsche G50 gearbox using only the front (nose) mount in addition to a homemade rear mount to the inner fenders of his oval. That`s it.
I`m using the single hole mentioned earlier in this thread after some small modifications to the two bent arms and it works. There is absolutely no signs of wear or tear to the hole and no wheel vibrations. You do not put a lot of tension to the bar, it is not there to support the engine, only to prevent it moving down when you drop the clutch at 7000+ rpms. A silly test.. put your foot on your fatboy exhaust and put some weight on it. Does the engine move? Yes and you have a problem when you`re going to do a proper launch.
A better solution would be to copy Skinne without removing the frame/pan forks using a homemade t2 style bar bolted to the engine case and then to your inner fenders using the bumper mounts if they are rust free.
-BB-
I have mocked up a similar traktion bar for my 67. I dont have room for a CSP bar, and dont know if it will do the job.
I use 40x20mm bar with brackets in the bumper bracket. Brackets in picture only for mock-up
reg
c
Geez Cassa -- I couldn't afford your Braided stainless bill --Holy Moly that's a ton of lines
Logged
Fiat -- GONE
Ovalholio -- GONE
Ghia -- -- It's going
Get lost for an evening or two --
http://selvedgeyard.com/
Remember, as you travel the highway of life,
For every mile of road, there is 2 miles of ditch
cassa
Jr. Member
Posts: 59
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #87 on:
June 27, 2011, 10:23:20 am »
Geez Cassa -- I couldn't afford your Braided stainless bill --Holy Moly that's a ton of lines
[/quote]
A 3 stage drysump pump and mechanical Aeromotive fuelpump will do that to you...
And there is still a couple of lines missing..
Logged
65bug
Sr. Member
Posts: 264
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #88 on:
July 03, 2011, 23:32:34 pm »
Hey guys,
Happy 4TH to all you guys. I got to work on my car some today and snapped some pics of the traction bar bracket bolts. Here's some pics lying on my back shooting upwards.
Logged
65bug
Sr. Member
Posts: 264
Re: Berg traction bar tips
«
Reply #89 on:
July 19, 2011, 13:41:42 pm »
traction bar works awesome!!!!!! What a difference it has made. So far so good...............................
Logged
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