The Cal-look Lounge

I have been thinking for a while it would be good to have some European records kept, maybe by one of the magazines like HotVWs does for USA & Land speed records, or maybe Trond could add it to the Top racers section or both would be even better.

What I was thinking we would want is 4 classes

N/A pan cars
Power adder pan cars
N/A chassis cars
Power adder chassis cars

Personally I think they should be aircooled vw flat 4 style rear engine only but am happy to hear input from everyone on this.

As per every sanctioning body I can think of any record would have to be backed up at the same meeting within 1%, if not by 1% then the faster time backs up the slower time.

There are lots of quick cars scattered around Europe now and I like to think that it would motivate everyone even more to go quicker :o :)

So if we did this what would the records be right now?

I am thinking that currently it would be

Thomas Kemp  N/A pan car  [ 10.21@204kmh]

Mexx N/A chassis car           [ 9.96@220kmh] I know Freddy went quicker but I don think he did 2 passes?

Hakan power adder Pan car [9.04@255kmh]

Stian power adder chassis car[8.59@263kmh]

but have no idea if they managed to run 2 good passes the same weekend that they made those runs

Would people be interested to see this done?

I am also trying to see if I can get some sponsorship to create a prize for landmark records in Europe, mainly the 1st European N/A pan car 9s and the 1st 7s !!! to create even more interest in this 8)

I will update that as and when I make some progress

cheers Richie

sounds like a good idea. i am in ;D ;D

Sounds cool:-)
I can add my bit to it as soon as I am done laying on the beach:-)

Ok, where should we place Tor Øyvind and his beetle?

- World fastest, original vw pan car
- licenced and registrated, fully street legal.
- No fancy shifting, just ordinary H pattern Porsche gearbox
- Oval body, metal with light weight doors
- No parachute needed because the car is stable @ 175mph

Need I say more?

-BB-

With the watercooled cars :)

Steve.. do you actually believe that the water is the reason he is the world fastest vw?

It certainly doesn't hurt.  Aircooled is aircooled, watercooled is watercooled, I don't doubt it's impressive and I certainly don't want to take away from their massive accomplishments, it just isn't an aircooled engine platform.  The Skinne car should be in a class of it's own simply because it IS in a class of it's own, it's not likely a rear-engined h-pattern pan car is going to go any quicker than them regardless of what watercooled vw engine it uses anyway.

Easy-peasy, add an Outlaw or "Open Class", specifically for VW-bodied cars that are no longer air-cooled, so Wasser/ScoobyDoo/Evo/Golf, whatever.

And just how DOES he keep that thing straight and on the ground at BMW-limiter speeds exactly?!?!?!?!  :o I'd love for someone to put a basic list up without taking away any "secrets", amazing job.

Any list ANYWHERE without Tor's ride included isn't a real list I reckon.

I agree, it does not hurt and it do not help. The only thing the water does is adding 25+kg or so and allows them to have have the car ready for the next round of racing sooner than anyone else. Drain the water out and it is just as aircooled as anyone else out there.

-BB-

YES, EXCELLENT IDEA!!!! I would also say Yes for the need to back-up.

Jyrki

I don't know, I have thought of a "anything else class" as well it deserves recognition for sure as its an amazing car 8)

The reason to have aircooled VW style flat 4 rear engine records is that is what we are all into, that is our passion.  That is what most of us started with in its most basic form. I know there is constant talk about what if they took the water out from the Skinne car, would it be aircooled? I don't think its the water that gives it an advantage either, its the development that has gone into it that makes it so special, but at what point to do you draw the line? is overcams ok? like some have created? they still were aircooled on some versions, then is a suburu engine ok with no water in it? etc etc. You need to stop somewhere and for me it is "VW style aircooled flat 4 pushrod engines in the rear" But if this idea gets accepted and it is adopted to allow factory WBX engines then so be it :)

I am just putting the idea out there for everyones input, so keep the thoughts coming


cheers Richie

There is a SCC video you can buy that takes you to his garage and he talks about the car, you see underneath and learn a lot about it, its 3 or 4 years old now so they have done more to it since then but it will give you a good idea of what makes it tick 8)


And NO, not inline engines for sure :o >:( ;D whatever ever else it is, they are of no interest for this set of records. ;D


cheers Richie

I think your idea to have a list with european records is good :)
But where to draw the line for who's in and who's not will always be difficult, and I think the rules must be crystal clear. What about vw powered Fiat's?
One simple rule should be the answer: the engine has to be a flat four with vw like engineering, rear mounted.
Cooling, fuel, ignition, exhaust, induction etc may be whatever.
This saves us from many dilemmas, such as water cooled IC's, water cooled engines, flat four engines with no vw parts at all etc

So I feel that the basic idea is a good one 8)

I deliberately didn't state body styles for one main reason, given the  Class records I was thinking of I don't see a Fiat etc setting them, there obviously not eligible in the Pan based classes, and with that wheelbase if they set a chassis record then good luck to them :o ;D

Given what Kalle mentioned maybe we should just give the Skinne car the pan power adder record now and close that class, no one will ever get near them :o, although I don't remember them backing up anything below a 8.70ish so who knows, does anyone know what there two best passes are at any 1 event? need to be within 1% for the quicker time to be valid

Personally I would still like it to be aircooled only, but majority should decide


Trond, when you finished toasting yourself on the beach :D can you tell me if its possible to set up a poll type vote on here? or any of the moderators for that matter?

cheers Richie

Cool idea, hope it all works out with the rules.
 Just to complicate it further, to avoid to spill water on the track Tor Øyvind is sometimes draining the water before running it.
He just instruct the driver not to stop for a hotdog on the way back.
:-)
BTW floor pan, that means vw style front suspension and vw style rear suspension? So backhalved counts as a chassi car?
Suspension makes a difference on the performance, floor pans or not doesent. My 2 øre.

Pan car= Stock VW style suspension

Anything else would fit in the 2nd catagory :)

Richie
The problem is that we have not much cars that are US class leagal - so we must make our own rules ...

Udo

Udo

no need for complicated rules, this is Europe hence European records :)

The 4 "classes" I stated are easy enough

1 : Stock pan car, VW factory style suspension, normally aspirated

2 :Stock pan car, VW factory style suspension, any power adders

3 :Anything else[chassis car, back half etc] normally aspirated

4 :Anything else [ chassis car, back half etc ] any power adders

All must be VW style flat four engine in the rear. [ just wether to state "aircooled" or not seems to be the only stumbling block right now ]


So get that gearbox fixed and go create a New record 8) :)

cheers Richie

Hope at Bug Jam  :)

I just have to throw in a few more arguments in the air cooled or not question:
-The cooling has little to none impact on the result on a quarter mile. If it was a endurance race or similar, the cooling would be a relevant question.
-In the rest of the dragrace world, what type of cooling the engine has is as far as I know, not a very "hot" issue :)
-Leaving out the very best flat four engine case VW made would be a little bit strange, when for example a Scat Killer Case is ok. Especially when the wbx is so close in design to the air cooled type 1 case.

This said, I am a big fan of the air cooled engine  ;D

Berger,

I get the feeling you should be in the garage working on your WBX powered bug instead of throwing in more arguments ;D

its not the durability of the watercooling or otherwise, its just where to stop with what you allow, if you allow WBX would you allow inline VW engines? You are going to allow engines from later VW models so what about golfs? they are the same era as vanagons?
Then what class would you fit the Skinne car into?  what about vanagon suspension, if you allow the engine then why not the suspension, I know its stupid but its really were you draw the line.


This said I am a big fan of the WBX engine                                                                  [in a van :-* ;D ]

You are right Richie, I should be in the garage, but I am home letting my frustration over not getting any spark from the EDIS module rain over my fellow VW friends on the internet  ::)

As said before, I think the line is behind the flat four VW design, so no inline engines of course.

In which class would you put a aircooled Vanagon..?  ;D  ;)

Tow vehicle ;D

Hi Richie,

First of all good idea about the setting record list...
You're asking for our input and opinions?
Here we go;

Honestly i don't agree with you about the "where to stop what you allow to enter the classes..." If you are talking about FLAT 4 ENGINES,then i doubt somebody would try to enter a car with an "INLINE 4 cyl engine",i feel that "inline-engines" and flat4-engine are MILES away from each other we agree on that ? ;D

A WBX engine is STILL FLAT4 !!

So if you ask me i'll have to say if you don't allow anything WBX-engine-related to enter a class,we need to refuse all those scat/pauter/TF-1/autocraft etc... engines too!Then we have another discussion about those ALU-case-modified 4 inch bore engines...And now i'm speaking against myself :D

I guess you won't have many particpants to run those top-numbers for the list after all...Or we should start a new classes on it's own for mainly stock VW engine-case-based engines...

 i'd say as long as we are VW/aftermarket flat4-engine talking whatever it be...Pauter big block,WBX engine,WBX-modified to AIR,Autocraft-engine with watercooled heads,etc...as long as it's NOT an overhead-cammed flat4-engine,it would be allowed to enter ANY of the classes.
After all we 're just playing right? And we all love to see some RECORDS aren't we?And no we're not talking Subie-engines for those who will reply... ;D

Best regards and have a nice day you all Loungers!

Regards Steve

Hi Steve

good reply :)  It is just wether to allow WBX engines running water, not oxyboxer or similar, but it does look more and more like we should allow them


Another question for you all, on the stock VW suspension pan car classes what limitations should be in place? if any?

do we allow raised and narrowed torsion?

must the engine/trans be mounted like factory?

must the suspension be stock style for the year car used? or?

can you put struts on a beam car or a beam on a strut car and it be ok still?

This is where it gets difficult/confusing when you allow later engine styles, then don't allow later suspension styles

cheers Richie

Again, keep it simple. Stock spring design in stock location on a pan car. Everything else in suspension = do what you want  8) 

Front and rear? so no modified torsion housings? I agree with that :)






This is where you are thinking logically, not like a racer :o ;D, if you dont write it in black and white someone will bend the rules ;)

I am already looking to see how I can fit ladder bars with coil overs next to my stock suspension :o ::) :D

I think it needs to say " no coil overs " at least


cheers Richie

Yes, correct. That is my opinion :)

I think coilovers are ok to use, but it has to be in adition to stock torsion bars.

So by adding one more word we fix the ladderbar "problem" :Working stock spring design in stock location on a pan car.  ;D

For what it’s worth I think it would be worth having a bigger range of records so that they appeal to a wider audience and encourage greater participation.
There are all sorts of people running all sorts of combinations out there and it would be fun to have a kind of matrix where you could look to see what times people have posted with what combinations in what cars.
Needless to say this could become quite large matrix with all the variables but, if for example if you had a 2276cc N/A street car which I suspect is a relatively common combination. It would be fun to see who has the fastest one and if you thought of adding nitrus to it then you could look to the next column and see who is the fastest with gas, next column for turbo etc. Then you might have columns for a 2276cc race car N/A, nitrus, turbo etc.
Perhaps you could have engine size (common sizes or bands perhaps) and power adders down the y axis and car types across the x axis with varying degrees of modification from stock ish street cars to a full cassis race cars.
Trond might not thank me for suggesting it as I suspect it’s a lot more work (that said he’s got plenty of time to think about it whilst sat on the beach), but I think it would be an interesting read and would help involve and perhaps inspire more people to make their cars quicker.
It could also be like a real world indicator as to how fast a particular car might / should go if they are looking at particular combination.
I’m sure there could be plenty of squabbling over the actual categories, but it would be good to make it inclusive rather than exclusive.
Peter

It doesent matter much if you have stock lenght torsion tubes or even torsion bars. What matters is the distance from the pivot point and up to the center line for the crank and the distance from the same pivot to the flywheel . If these measurements are as stock I think it should pass as pan car.

Maybe a fifth class for those watercooled cars,
no matter if wbx, inline or V8-engines, or the subie powered cars.

When looking a the Skinne-bug, obviosly the only Volkswagen part is the engine block.

But many of the race cars with pauter or autocraft engines have less than this..............

The heads are unwelded stock replacement castings (OEM)

Balljoint front beam and mostly original metal pan minus the forks

But how do you control/check this? the idea is we have to trust peoples entries or it would become to difficult to monitor, its easy to see a stock suspension car, we all know what it looks like, and what should be their and what shouldn't

If you use the crank center line as a reference point what happens on raised trans cars?

If stock suspension pan cars are to be a category then it has to be stock suspension components, If I had it my way then it would be "stock to the car" so a swingaxle car would have to remain so etc

cheers Richie

Maybe, if that's really what people want, but to me it goes away from the concept of what its about, and then do you split that into 2 classes as well, for stock pan cars and another for everything else?

cheers Richie

 

Pete I know what you are getting at, and it would be cool to have some lists to be able to compare our own "car" to another similar spec[ although god knows were yours would fit in :D ]  but that is something completely different to "European records"


The best way I can sum up what you are getting at about a bigger range of records for more participation is: that I don't have children, so I don't have his modern idea that no one should lose like it seems is the current thing in schools now ::)  We should strive to be the best we can and if we beat someone along the way then celebrate it :o ;D

I know, I know not very pc is it!!!!!!!!

cheers Grumpy old git ;D

Is  it possible to go on the % of real VW

I.e pan, body, suspension, transmission , suspension, engine case and heads whether water cooled flat four or air cooled

The rest is all fair game work out a point system.so a you could a class sthat could race against each other but then you could win on handicap points at the end of the year so it could be about seat and devolpment time and not all bout what you have spent  on your car maybe ?

Cheers Andy

Dear Richie

Definitely a great idea. ;D

The 4 classes are perfect; maybe a 5 for unlimited (watercooled)

1: Stock pan car, VW factory style suspension, normally aspirated

2 :Stock pan car, VW factory style suspension, any power adders

3 :Anything else[chassis car, back half etc] normally aspirated

4 :Anything else [ chassis car, back half etc ] any power adders

And I think there have to be rules, but they have to be simple (it makes no sens if to many racers are ruled out).
It's necessary that the rules have to be written down. We all have to thrust that ever racer obseves this rules.
As there will be endless discusions about this rules I think simple is better.

MeXX

Dear Richie

U R right, there should be the need of a second run within 1% although we all now how hard this is most of the time.
Maybe there should a second list for all that faster but unofficial records ..

In memorial Mickey Thompson fastest man on earth September 9 ,1960 406.60 mph at Bonneville.
(no other 400+ mph run this year).

MeXX

So do the amount of competitive watercooled cars[ got to be realistic, if its going to have a record there has to be cars racing ] out there racing justify a Class record of there own, I can only think of 2 that are currently racing that would fit this category that have any chance to set the record

and if so is it for just VW based engines? or some hybrid creature? not that it makes much difference as there will still only be 3 cars I can think of that really would have a chance to set the record.

cheers Richie

Totally agree :)

I think the list Trond already does on here covers this well enough, and should continue to do so, all he needs is more input from racers to keep updating there times and progress :)

cheers Richie

i think this is somehow heading towards the american system... there is a class for every car being built.
Aside from what categories you want to make, this is indeed a good idea. We should be able to see who's doing what and also who did what in the past.
My idea would be a list with a number of variables like: engine size, turbo, NA, Nitro, oldspeed equiped, pan, chassis, slicks, full interior, what not. and then just list all the cars in a spreadsheet and when you are looking for one car or presumable engine combo you can look for it. it will be hard to classify all cars in a few classes as european laws (street and track) seem to differ quite a lot.

example: who has the fastest fastback?

i can give in one variable and that is the type of car: i.e. fastback. do a search and all cars listed are fastbacks. no account taken what engine, turbo or not.

example two: i give in pan based beetle, NA, cc's 2000 to 2400, street tires, full interior.

this would be a narrower search.

 8)

Well if such records existed Thomas Kemp would certainly hold the N/A pan record at the moment, if I heard correct he ran 10.12 earlier and he just went 10.1589@130.27 mph, Congrats Thomas, very impressive achievement 8) :)

cheers Richie

And given the back up with in 1% requirement Udo would have the N/A chassis car record with the 9.9641@133.6 he just ran backed up with any of those 10.00s he has run already this weekend,

Well done Udo 8) :)

cheers Richie

come on lets just get the list up and worry about the details latter....

That was a nice weekend - made some 10,00 passes and could not find the right setup on the car. except at the last race aginst Thomas where i missed 4th gear

Udo

I think that is the first N/A 9 second run in the UK by an AC VW, unless some one knows otherwise.

I was lucky enough to see the UK'S first ever 9 when Luke and Peter were running Moody back in the early 90's and I got a nice view of this one too, from the staging area as I was in the next pair to run.

A bit of UK VW drag racing history was made this weekend me thinks.

Thomas brought Udo back to the ground with a bump in the final though!

Both cars were running low 10 second passes all weekend and not forgetting Thomas's car is a street car too!

Top work from both of you.

Looks like us guys in the UK have some catching up to do!

Peter

How about cars that were totally air cooled say full pauter engine for instance and still run a air cooled fan but also welded a jacket round three fins and pump water round it . For no other reason than it is a true street car and this allows the use of it on the road
Cheers russ

Hi Russ

I appreciate your input :) , so do you consider your car aircooled or watercooled now?

I personally think if watercooling the engine is allowed then you have to include the WBX engines as well, it would be very difficult to separate them fairly :)
and as we are not currently looking at a "street car class" how you cool it getting down the track doesn't matter, controlling what is and what isn't a street car would be impossible as everyone has there own ideas[ and every European country seems to have different legistlation on street legality] and everyones ideas on what is and what isn't a street car are all different :o

cheers Richie

This is extremely impressive!
I think everyone around the world would be impressed with this,
not just because it is a big type 4,
but primarily because it is a very heavy, NA pan car.

Would love to know some recent specifications!

It was a perfekt Weekend on Bug Jam

and I have come a small step closer to the 9

I wanted to protect my Gearbox for Hockenheim I went with a security Setup

when I come to the VW Action I hope that the new CSP Headers is finished and I will try to beat the time


Thanks for the great interresse on my Car

Best Regards Thomas

Well done Thomas!
Do you still run the beetle transmission?
Can you share some specifications of your car like
mass in kg and engine?
Thanks, Dave.

+1, yes please! What type of heads do you use?
VERY impressive!

I use a type 1 Transmission Rancho pro shift

J&G Floater Clutch with RLR Black Magic Disk


Engine a Type 4 2900 ccm

86mm Scat crank
5,5 caningham Rods
Raptor Cam
914 VW Heads  51.5 Intakt and 40 Ex Valves

Even more impressive Thomas, with the original casting heads!  :o

New Slow Motion Video on my Web Site

www.kemp-racing.de

I also think this is great - any decisions taken?

Johan

Come on how long does this take..... what about the rules, seems like some people are sitting on the fence......

Right

Don't think it will take so much rules just the classes and a ranking........

BTW for class 3 (Race cars naturally aspirated)

9.8780 @ 222.47km/h at Kunmadaras 18.Aug.2013 11:20
and backup run
9.9265 @ 222.12km/h at Kunmadaras 18.Aug.2013 11:42

[attachment=1]


So keep on settin' records

MeXX

Hi all!
Seems Mexx have the first official record - right!  :) Congrats on two super runs!
What about the 4 classes mentioned and then one "Outlaw" class for any car that is not possible to be defined within the 4!? I also think it is important that we within the 4 classes have some "leeway" on the suspension set-up and other not "detailed" regulations not to bee too picky if a car have a completely "original" suspension or not etc. It must be possible for ALL cars to fit within the 5 classes. We all have raced for a long time and we know what makes differences or not as far as being quick down the track. This should be serious but still because it's fun and we enjoy what we are doing. I feel the whole idea is important though since it will make everyone strive for getting quicker!
:)
Johan

Johan,

can you offer what you think should and what should not be allowed on suspension mods/changes then please? more input the better.

As I have my own ideas of what it should be I am trying to keep out from forcing my opinions on this, so need to get as much input from others as possible so there is as little
 "its not fair, my car doesn't fit" bullshit afterwards ;)

But the simpler the better :)

cheers Richie

Best Richie!
I couldn't agree with you more than that there will always be "its not fair, my car doesn't fit" bullshit afterwards - no matter what is decided. My thought, and that remains my thought, was to keep it really simple as far as suspension goes i.e. #1 would be a pan car with torsion bars and springplates of original length - no matter if it's raised or not. Any use of ladderbars, coilover springs would be #2 and that would include using sprinplates fitted w.o. torsion bars with a coilover spring for instance, pan car or not. #2 and #3 would be the same but with power adder.

Another thought is for the NA cars to maybe divide them by using original boltpattern for the cylinder heads and 4" boltpattern!? Just to complicate it even more, but I can feel that for NA cars there is a big difference in running a 2388 or 2442 compared to some of the 2,6-3,0 liter engines out there!

I guess my thoughts didn't make it simpler - sorry for that!  :-\ Most important is the first point though, more than the engine dividing point!

Any thoughts!?
:)
Johan

Good, my ideas are not far off yours :)

Pan car must use stock style torsion spring, stock style spring plates[adjustable allowed] and stock shock mounting points. What size torsion, shock, bushings etc is free. That is as near to stock style suspension as it needs to be, now getting into different bore sizes is another can of worms :o :D

cheers Richie

I like it the way you are saying.  As for the cilinderbore and stuff, if the enginesize is put next to the ETs in the list people can go trhough the list themselves and see where they stand compared to others with the same Ccs. I dont see a need for a seperate list. If your the fastest 1641 it will be obvious from the list.

so, that will be my input  ;D

Great!
The bore size can of worms is probably best left unopened!!  :D
Johan

Jesse!
Yes for the "fast times" lists that will be ok, but if we are establishing an European Record it will only be one record in that "list"!
:)
Johan!

Hi to all

I think we basically agree to have 4 classes and maybe a 5th for all that
 don't fit into this 4 classes.
So this 4 classes are basically two: pan cars and race cars
and each naturally aspirated and power added.

So far so good......
I think we should make a list of does and don'ts for these classes.

The first list should be 4 all 4 classes like:

does:

air cooled flat four.
rear engine
RWD
doorslammer
.......


don'ts

floppers
.......


and then we should consider for pan cars:

does:

stock style front style suspension
(beam and stock style MC pherson) ??
stock style rear suspension
swing axle and stock style IRS
(torsion bar housing height altering allowed) ?? how much ??
stock style shox location and mounting
stock style pans ??

dont's

strut style front suspension
ladder bars and 4 links
coil over shox without stock style torsion bars
tube chassis without stock style pans


There are further things to be considered:

flip front allowed ??
stock style roof section ??
top chop allowed ??
are any steel (metal) body parts necessary ??

and for all classes:

what kind of fuels are allowed (prohibited)
what kind of tires are allowed (prohibited)
what kind of power adders and how much are allowed (prohibited)

to be continued ......

So to all how are intersted in this record list help to complet ......


MeXX

Hi Mexx

good points/questions

my thoughts


4 classes, think we all agreed :)

 All must be rear engine, horizontally opposed four cylinder, and have 2 full working doors. All body mods[chopped, channelled etc] and materials allowed[steel, fiberglass, carbon etc all ok]


Number 1:  normally aspirated factory floorpan,

Must have stock style front and rear suspension to car[no struts if not factory strut car]

front: mods to beam allowed to narrow it[no limit on width], drop spindles, beam adjusters etc all allowed, must use front shocks
rear: must use factory width torsion bars as main spring [ swapping torsion bar lengths between different years allowed so in theory narrowed torsion housing allowed] rear shocks must use factory mounting points.
All vehicles must have full length welded in factory style floorpans, repo pans allowed

Number 2: power adder factory floorpan [any power adder/adders and as many as you want]
suspension & body mods as above in class Number 1

Number 3 : Normally aspirated modified[includes all raised, narrowed rear torsions, back halved ladder bar, full chassis etc, etc[ anything that doesn't fit into class Number 1, MAXIMUM WHEELBASE 99inches

Number 4 : Power adder modified, as in class 3, with any power adders allowed, MAXIMUM WHEELBASE 99inches

Any fuels allowed that can be ran at all tracks [eg no polypropelene ] Any tyre allowed

Everything else is free, except:                If it looks fcuking ugly then it wont be allowed :o ::) ;D ;D

At this time I have ignored the WBX/aircooled question and ohc heads.

cheers Richie



Editied to add WHEELBASE LIMIT

Dear Richie

Sounds great  ;D
Looks like the "European ACVW record rulebook" will be finished soon  ::)

What we have consider is that we have to make a more exact definition of the body:

IMO it should be:

       based on a traditional aircooled car
   or traditional full boddied kit car Buggys allowed ??
   or New Beetle
   or traditional factory rear engine equipped "Fiats". (although it's strange if a Fiat is in a VW record list  ??? but it's a tradition ;) )

IMO it should NOT be

       based on late style water cooled cars like Golf,K70 and similar.(except New Beetle).
       based on Dune Buggys or Rails
       based on late style water cooled "Fiats" like X1/9.
  

just my opinion  ;D

MeXX

Ok, to keep it simple, for the Pan based classes as they need to be full metal floor pans in the rules it would need to be a LWB buggy to fit, and realistically if someone wants to make a new beetle or fiat body fit an un-altered pan then good luck to them.

 Then for the chassis class I think any traditionally used body style is ok? I will add a maximum wheelbase to those classes[modified classes] of 96 inches to stop anything stupid, and the rule at the end that if its Fcuking ugly it wont be allowed should be enough to stop any mutants :D :o ;D

cheers Richie

Dear Richie

U R right

For pan cars it has to have a stock pan:

        we should decide if LWB Buggys are allowed
        we should decide if stock pan "Fiats" are allowed

IMO the maximum should be 99 inch (New Beetle) because it doesn't make them faster but saver  ;)
       and wheelbase stagger Maximum 1 inch (like NHRA)

more input from everyone (Racers) requested

MeXX

I think yes to LWB buggies, and I don't think you can make a Fiat fit on a stock VW pan so that really isn't an issue, it can't be on a Fiat pan as all the suspension rules wouldn't allow that.

And 99 inches is ok, I didn't realise the NB was that long wheelbase, I will ask Rudy the wheelbase on his car as the +or - 1inch[ or 2inches as some governing bodies allow] might make a difference, I think the wheelbase rule shouldn't exclude any current built and running cars :)

Wheelbase edited in my last rules post 8)

cheers Richie

Hi

I think it makes sens that there will be no "Fiats" allowed in the pan car classes, as otherwise the
 rules are going to get very complex.

As mentioned before IMO enlarge the wheelbase makes the cars safer not faster so maybe something like +4 inch or -1inch
from the factory car should be OK, but I appreciate "funny cars" ;D are OK too funny cars :P definitely NOT.

Another aspect should be if there have to be minimum safety features especially in the race classes (to keep racing save and avoid lightweight car at any cost of safety features).

So Long

MeXX

Very interesting debates going on here. I like the general idea, but It would seem the WBX is being pushed out  of favour. Shame really, as the Skinne Bros and others have worked damn hard to go faster than most with standard VW flat four parts. Low 8s on a standard Volkswagen crankcase and cylinder heads is, in my opinion, worthy of commendation and therefore consideration. How many other cars out there are using standard, factory components? Hmmmmnnn... At most perhaps the brass distributor drive gear.

Hell, there's even a WBX powered car that runs mid nines on factory cylinder heads, crankcase and cylinders. Big power using readily available and cheap parts. It's way more Volkswagen then most, but sadly doesn't fit in to any category. Even if driven sans water.

I have a proposal that would be interesting reading for people interested in racing. How about making it mandatory across the proposed classes that racers disclose their bore and stroke? It would be good to see what can be achieved with certain combinations. It will be aspirational to people building their cars.

Matt

Hi Matt

good to have your input, you have been around long enough to have a good idea or 2 ;D

But, you need to read my last incarnation of the rules, it doesn't say anywhere it needs to be aircooled :o :P ;D, I even mentioned at the end I have deliberately left out any reference to WBX and ohc heads. It goes against everything I am passionate about to include watercooled cars but I am trying to do this so it is as unbiased as possible.

Why wouldn't your old car fit into any category presuming that's what you are referring to?

What everyone has to remember is there are only going to be 4 names/cars on this list for records at any one time, looking at it currently you would have these cars/drivers as record holders

1 Thomas Kemp 10.12
2 Skinne[owner] Jens[driver] 8.0?
3 Mexx 9.87
4 Stian 8.57

these times may not all be backed up but you get the idea.

So to be on this list you would need to beat those times, I don't realistically see anyone ever beating the Skinne cars times, so if it is included we can pretty much close that class for ever, not very inspirational to others with similar cars is it?

This isn't designed to be "give everyone a gold star"  Its supposed to be the quickest VW cars Europe has, there is already a list/records for watercooled VWs, and Trond already has a Top racers list on here which should give people a pretty good idea on different combo's. I don't see the need for another list to do that as well do you? maybe the current top racer list could be expanded to include more info if people wanted that, racers would be ok with giving that & Trond agreed to the extra work

cheers Richie

Ah... Wasn't quite sure how to read the above statement as it kind of reads 'ignore them in general'.
So, what you are suggesting is that WBX can be included? If so, game on! 👍

Matt

Dear Richie

I agree. It's a record list.

But maybe we should mention at least a runner up in each class just to see who is near (or far #2) of the record.

And we have to write down if it's the car, the team or the driver who runs the record and who is listed.

Happy that it's pretty close to the finish line ;D

MeXX

I am trying too ;D 

 but at this time I haven't . 

It is still real hard to find where to draw the line, the majority of us are into the aircooled VW platform so that is the basis for these records[as there currently are none for Europe], but then defining the drivetrain is proving more difficult, I see the argument for the WBX engine but there are only 2 cars I am aware of currently racing that are running it, so do we change what is allowed just for 2 cars? and then I am sure Berger would agree as he is the 2nd car using WBX power, no one is ever going to catch Skinne so now we are making rules just for one car. To me that is a bad precedent to set already, what do we say to the guy with the VW inline engine or Subaru engine that thinks the rules should allow them? well one is a horizontally opposed flat four and the other could use a majority of VW parts in his engine, it would make just as good an argument as the WBX to me.

more opinions please :)

cheers Richie

The record should show: car, driver [and or owner/builder if that's different to driver] place, time, date, then time run for record and back up time as well. I am not sure if we need anything more than that?

cheers Richie

Yep; scan of the timeslip would be great so that everyone can see it.

ET and time minimum 2 dig after the coma. All missing digits are 9.
So for examble a 9.00 is a 9.0099 and a 9.000 is a 9.0009 and so on.

MeXX

Going fast with a stock floor pan without a narrowed torsion housing should be recognized as harder to do than the alternative. To get all the power down you need to go wider with your track due to over sized tires. Making the car effectively shorter than a stock beetle.

In other words, I think the stock pan class should be split in two. Narrowed rear end and stock torsion tube.
Just meant as a comment, I think this is going to be great either way.  :)

So should there be a "stock pan", "modified pan" and "tube frame" records? "Stock" being as it says, "Modified" being raised/narrowed/coil overs (in place of torsion bars), "Tube frame" including back-halved/ladder bar pan cars.

I agree



This is why I ask for all comments and opinions :)   Is 4 classes enough? , do we need to expand it more?
How many quick narrowed and raised torsion cars are there in Europe? anyone name them? there doesn't seem any point to make it more complicated if its just one or two cars?

I have a bunch of other class ideas in my head but most of them become difficult to monitor, a Sub 2000cc class for both categories would be the next choice for me 

Maybe, but I think once it has coil overs in place of torsion bars it is a whole different car.

Also this is something that maybe would need to be considered, what is a "stock pan"  Example: does an oval have to have an correct oval swingaxle pan? does a Super beetle have to have strut front end? etc

cheers Richie

Hi all!
Narrowed should fit in the class for coilover i.e. not considered "stock" pan car in my opinion. And for all cars not fitting in the 4 classes - one outlaw class. And I agree with Mexx that it could be in place to have a runner-up position for everyone to see how close or not close "the chase" is!
Thoughts?
:)
Johan

I think 4 classes and maybe and Outlaw class is enough first
If this is done we can make further classes if there is a real need.

IMO a stock pan is if it's a stock or after market (stock style) pan and/or suspension doesn't matter what year:
      so if anyone really wants to run a link pin in a Super Beetle, feel free.
      so if anyone really wants to run a T3 or stock style strut front end in an Oval, feel free.
      because there are running allot IRS in cars that were factory swing axle cars.
      because there are running some swing axles  in cars that were IRS factory cars.

As I already mentioned IMO

MeXX

I think it must be taken into consideration that there might come new participants to the scene. And there are more cars running wbx then just Skinne and me. Matt`s car is still around isn't it? And Sveinung Slinnings 1303 (ran 10.xx at SCC this year but broke engine) is a wbx. And others are in the making :)

Good point, Matts car has pauter engine now I believe, which is why I only mention Skinne and yourself :)  I did forget about Sveinung's car.

guys, i don't bother posting to the forum often, visiting it just to keep on top of the scene. I don't believe i can input an awful lot at the moment.... however when it comes to this i hope i can add a bit of perspective...

Firstly, lets get real... how many people are actually interested outside of our small community in records and trophies. If you want records and pride to show off to Joe Public, make it simple, so they can understand it... yes we all understand the ideas in this forum, but don't they just get far too complex... We all want records, but a record has to be worthwhile, not every record is something to be proud of...

You risk alienating any audience if they don't understand the rules, how many times have we all thought this in F1? If you are going to attract new entrants and a wider audience then make it simpler.... 4 classes (panned and tube in both N/A and turbo and that's it) and declared engine CC, stroke and bore, so it might create a list that has the big CC cars like Richies at the top ;), but at least everyone knows why... the public and competitors know what they are up against, for once!

If you carry on the way you are with classes and rules, you will create a format that defines everyone in their own class, its not primary school we dont all need a trophy, I for one couldn't care less..... do it for the thrill, remember that? its why we all started...

I am sure I will get shot down, but your losses, making it simple means everyone can compete and its easy for all to understand, especially your audience and those you want to attract with shiny new motors (like me!)

Just how are you going to define those classes to your audience, I cant wait to see it...

Hi

I agree.

It has to be simple so that everyone understands, but it has to be written down exactly what is allowed and what is prohibited in each class to stop endless discussion about cheating.

MeXX

Just not too complex, any flat 4 motor of VW style origin is good, split it any further and you get into a whole heap of rules and regs, and this is supposed to be FUN...

I will put in my two pennth as a relative outsider....The Skinne car should sit right at the top for as long as its numbers allow, we should all take our hats off to those guys. Instead of taking the easy reliable route (pauter big block) they have gone a route that many of us would not challenge and built a motor from scratch, for that they deserve more than excluding, they need commending. In my book its the car builders who can race who deserve the trophies, without them in this small arena it would be all but dead...so lets think about that, there is far more skill in building a car than buying it in my book, maybe self builders should get some bonus points (that would make lower budget cars more even!)

So lets celebrate the great people creating some amazing and crazy cars, the Skinne bug deserve a medal for what they have done with a wasserboxer (alng with Marco Mansi for all Torque motor) not discussions of exclusion as they are after all currently unbeatable.That is not sport, they work with a motor set for less than 100hp and achieve over 1000hp, Pauter blocks were made for the job.... I know which one has more skill and ability and his times truly are incredible.

If you cant beat em you cant just rule em out.... ???

Rant over, think I will leave this to you to decide now! :)

Cant put this down now...

Regulations are all well and good, but we arent competing together, rules take away from the spirit and the engineering challenge of more than pushing the boundaries, sure we all agree that the US racing would be more fun if the rules were as simple as either panned (as in it has the floorpan in place) or tube, and the motor is either NA or Forced.

The skill in this is making more out of what you have (or less in the form of weight) not governing it with a load of rules, it will fall apart... then its a waste of time.

To me, and others its down to the CC of your motor and the skill of the builder, if we are honest about what we have underneath then everyone knows the boundaries to push and where to aim. The public understand it :). if you dont want to push boundaries then its not a record is it?

Come on lets get a grip, there are no more than 30 cars in line for even the top 10 overall, so rules just make it a waste of time and no fun all for 30 part time racers

Panned = having centre tunnel and floor that VW gave the car
Tube = not as above

NA = no form of forced induction
Turbo = any form of forced induction

Job done, now lets crack on and award Skinne until someone else can catch them up  8). They in my opinion are the heroes of this scene, no bull, no messing, they do it all and no shouting about it, no doubt my heroes and who I aim to compete against...

Thats it, stir it up with my two penneth....over and out  ;D

See you all soon with all torque 2 hopefully to stir up things 8)

So far so good

As I see we all (I hope at least most) agree to the four classes:

1. Pan car naturally aspirated
2. Pan car with power adder
3. Race car naturally aspirated
4. Race car with power adder

We just have to consider:

1. what is allowed/prohibited in general.
2. what is allowed/prohibited in the Pan car classes (all other should be race cars).


MeXX

Hi Nick

 1st of all you have a race car and want to race so your opinion is just as valid & welcome as everyone else :)  maybe we are reading the way this thread has gone differently but I thought it was pretty much agreed the WBX was allowed and also the crazy ohc versions of the VW engine that some have created and with 4 main classes [don't think that the power adder classes should be called turbo as that will confuse the public surely? ]  and what we don't need is lists, there are already enough lists out there, you said it yourself its not primary school, not everyone will get a prize, it should only be the best, quickest, fastest, how you do that is up to you, not everyone can build the total 100% car themselves an shouldn't be judged on what they can or cannot do. The Skinne car is a good example, who do you credit with the success? the guy who builds the car or the guy that drives it to those amazing times? its all part of the package

You say and I quote " we all want records"   and then say "we dont all need a trophy, I for one couldn't care less" so which is it?

cheers Richie

You are right,

no one should be ruled out,
but we have to be carefull to have no too much but exact rules.

As you mentioned before :
Panned = having centre tunnel and floor that VW gave the car;
so all cars that have up grated from link pin to ball joint or from swing axle to IRS or the other way would be forced in the race cars class.


MeXX

Really?


and you do understand the need to back up the pass within 1% ? so I am not even sure that the Skinne car is at the top of the pile?




now you are taking the piss >:(  how is what Marco did amazing? its a lighter more complex car than Skinnes and ran 1.5 seconds slower? my old car with no fancy suspension[stock everything except torsion bars and shocks and drop spindles], 250-300lbs more weight, no wheelie bars etc etc went 9.23@152mph with a bunch of cheap of the shelf parts that anyone could buy an build into a quick combo, if the engine in All torque was so good why did you swap it out after only a few passes?
  
And it has nothing to do with them being unbeatable, this is an Aircooled VW forum and we are talking about Aircooled VW cars so to allow or not to allow watercooled cars is very relevant.

I love the Skinne car, it is fantastic to watch, and the achievements are incredible, don't try to make this about something its not ::)  

Its about the suspension, not whats is inbetween, all these cars will have a substantial cage so the actual floor becomes irrelevant, maybe it would be simpler to call it "stock suspension" rather than floorpan so everyone understands.

look forward to seeing your car back out again, what we really need is more cars pushing the barriers :)

cheers Richie

Dear everyone

I think we should stop the discussion who is in an who's out.

Let's do it step by step:

1.European records, should we have some?
IMO and I hope most will agree:
Yes!!


2.The classes
IMO and I hope most will agree:

1. Pan car naturally aspirated
2. Pan car with power adder
3. Race car naturally aspirated
4. Race car with power adder


2,5. The need of a back up run?
IMO Yes
That really changes allot we all know what it takes run a record and it takes really much more to run it twice on the same event.


3. What is allowed/prohibited in general.

and

4. What is allowed/prohibited in the Pan car classes (all other should be race cars).

and

5.what is allowed/prohibited in the power adder classes.






MeXX

Think we will agree to disagree. We clearly arent going to get on are we! I have no axe to grind, just look at this from an outsiders point of view... possibly the most unbiased you will get as I have no history or opinions...

Can I do what Marco or Skinne have done? I have no interest in arguing, but take my hat off to the waterboxer guys and the time invested by a small group of people. They should be commended for that. I for one cannot even consider the work involved and the technical knowhow Skinne have called upon is outside the norm.

I dont want to bother getting into a discussion about this I just wanted you all to get some 'perspective.'  Sadly, you have straight away picked up two comments in completely different context and compared them, why no real comments on my ideas???? You then are outraged when I speak from my point of view... we are not going to see eye to eye, but that could add to the fun  :o

So for clarity as you quoted me...

QUOTE- 'we dont all need a trophy, I for one couldn't care less'

MEANS- I am not interested in tropies, its not what motivates me or gets me out of bed. Others that dont bother posting her must feel the same. I am living a dream I wanted to fulfil 20 years ago, but didnt have the time of dollars to do it, using the best possible knowledge and skill I can get my hands on. I was referrring to seperating out classes so there are almost as many trophies as quick cars...

However

QUOTE- 'we all want records'

MEANS- We all want records to be broken, thats pushing the boundaries and what the hobby is about, isnt it

Am I clear? hope so ;) if not drop me an email. I am a genuine chap just interested in seeing how quick a VW panned car can go, but you wont see my picture in a magazine, there is no build thread, just a desire to do it my way, thats why no one on here has any concrete info where we are today. I have no desire about making it about me, its the determination to master the build of a quick car and then on my first year of racing really let it go that gets me motivated. Being forced to put this in writing makes me remember how much as well... ;)  

Now lets forget this and make it nice and simple and above all WELCOMING TO ALL, if its not no one will care and it will be ignored ;D and that means an arena that is dimishing anyway disappears... :'( And lets not have any more slagging anyone off please!

Thats it from me, pull everything I have said to pieces, but I have at least spoken out, I am not going to get upset..... Skinne have the right idea, keep quiet and blow everyone away with the skill. And dont go onto me about them not being builders and drivers, how is he going to be he is 90% blind, even more brownie points from me  ;) in that case having a driver seems OK in my book.....

Now come on, lets all calm down and get some perspective...

Thats it from me, I put in my two penneth and got my point down, if not listened too I cant say I didnt try :)

One thing is clear, the rules should be formulated by someone who has nothing to gain and is reasonably impartial. Not a racer,  the way I look at the thread its clear rules are formulated to either include or restrct specific cars, thats not sport.

I think its discussion over until someone finds a retired racer who can be impartial when creating rules. Typically just like everything else beauracricy is getting in the way of having a bit of a laugh, next it will be health and safety.. ::)

Thats it from me. Over and out, good luck to everyone, come over and say hello if you see us soon 8)

Lastly,

I took the motor from all torque as I wanted it quicker. What I am unable to do is start making the top end from scratch to increase CC, A pauter big block was the easy way out for me, not necessarily the better option, but one I can maintain and get parts for, a big bore waterboxer sadly is not, more reason why I take myhat off to Skinne, I investigated repeating this and its tough, so I took the easy way out.

I want a car I can get parts from in weeks, not have to make from scratch. I am no engineer, so a decision had to be made and Pauter offer a better option in my circumstances. However the all torque motor will reappear, better then ever, be sure.

The best things come to those who wait, and I waited 20 years to do this

Now I really do have other things to do, just didnt read what was posted after my last comment.

Two things

1: just because we may disagree on 1 or a million things doesn't mean we wont or couldn't get on, racers tend to be a strange breed, the motivation and desire to succeed go hand in hand with a single mindedness, I am sure you already know and realise this ;)

2: You do know Red baron was a pan car till this year don't you? just backhalved with ladder bars, so that should satisfy you need to know how quick a panned VW can go :o ;D  now if you think that that is the same as racing a stock suspension VW then that's ok, but it doesn't seem right to all those that race genuinely stock VW floorpan and suspension cars to include them in the same category.

cheers Richie

Edited for my poor spelling :D

Blimy, just read this thread,

it all seams a little complicated. I really don't think its worth a debate on so many rules for such a relatively small group of "same make" racers.

i for one like the list thats on here. Sums it up nicely.

May be its an idea to leave the years No1 on the list for the following year, to give us something to aim for.

I personally am not bothered what type of suspension the cars have. people have gone fast on all the types of suspension. And im not even bothered if its got water in it. For me its about the VW type of motor (2 valve pushrod motor). its about making the power and delivering it to the track in the most efficient way.

I think thats all we need.


just my opinion.


Martin

Martin, Glad to hear that....I was beginning to think that everyone on here was staying quiet  ???

Rules equal no fun and a whole lot of arguing, so why bother? So my time wasn't wasted yesterday after all!!

So lets just be honest, show your hand and see how quick you can go....

So, declare engine cc (and no bullshit please) and lets crack on....sounds like old school racing to me.. It's been fun for 50 years so why piss about with it?

Think we may have a formula now, so lets stop wasting our time formulating rules👌

Richie... I feel I have to speak out here on behalf of my old car 'All Torque' and Marco. Firstly, why do you feel the need to discredit the car and its achievements?  It was built on a tight budget over a period of 10 years as a 'fun' car. I never for a moment dreamed it would run mid nines, but with Marco's help (for free!) and a fair amount of ingenuity, we were able to slowly dial the car in and get it running quicker and quicker. It's proof that if you persevere and have a good team, anything is possible!

 Hopefully along the way All Torque inspired others who were building, or were thinking of building, a race car, just as other cars (including yours) had inspired me to build my own. Ground breaking it perhaps wasn't, but I'm sure many on here will agree it was fun to watch, as it  was one of only a handful of UK cars to run a 'nine', which, I'm sure you will agree, is no mean feat.

Had I have had a sponsor or even several sponsors, then I might have been able to carry on developing the car. Sadly, a reality check prevented this. Enter the car's new owner, Nick Edwards. Nick, with our help,  has taken the car to another level. It is now a serious race car... ;)

Seems people think we are developing a racing series with rules that need to be understood by the general public.

I thought it was a simple little list with four to five names on, for  "internal" reference only.

Just my 2 øre

Matt,

that is not how I meant it, I apologise if it came across that way to you :-[


Nick wrote and I quote



'What Skinne achieved is amazing and deserves the credit but in my opinion Marco doesn't, I feel Nicks comments actually are taking the piss to compare the 2 achievements, yes what you achieved on a small budget is very respectable, the car is/was[ haven't seen it so don't know] beautifully built and yes 9s for UK built cars are still rare and hard work but that's not what we were talking about, 8.0s with stock suspension in a heavy car is amazing, no one else this side of the world is anywhere near that so shouldn't be compared.
Maybe Niklas running 9.55 with a 1641 is as near an accomplishment as there is to it. But we are talking about record breaking / setting acomplishments here, not just good, I feel what I achieved with my old car was good :) but it isn't good enough to be able to claim any records that we are talking about here.

This is my last post on this Euro records subject as it has gone way off what I thought was a good idea and turned into something else completely, Jon's last post made the point perfectly, it was never meant to be about lists, runners up, previous bests or anything else, as its obvious there aren't enough that share my ideas on what racing an aircooled VW is all about as far as I am concerned this topic is done ::) >:(

cheers Richie

IMO the discussion went into a wrong direction.

I don't think it's that difficult.

Just 4 classes:

1. Pan car naturally aspirated
2. Pan car with power adder
3. Race car naturally aspirated
4. Race car with power adder

Really easy to undersand for everyone !!
We just have to define exactly what cars and engines are allowed !!
We just have to define exactly what is allowed in the pan car class !!

The only real question I see at the moment where we need a consense is:
Do we need a backup run (within 1%) ??

I do not think this threat is a place for the discussion who has the best skills or something else.

MeXX

I don't think a backup run is needed, they don't have them in athletics.

Hi all!

I think we all can meet around the 4 classes and possibly one outlaw class. At least "in my mind" for next season I have my car classified within these classes and that is what I will run against if it isn't decided or made "official"! I do believe in back-up within 1% should be there (once again, in my mind it is and will be) since one of the true challenges in drag racing is consistency. It also eliminates the questions in regards to that something might "have been wrong" with the timing system thus producing a "one-off" quick time.
So for all you out there - my car will be in the "class" #3, Race car NA!
:)
Johan

I also think a backup within 1% should be a must!

Because NHRA and PRA has it.

MeXX

I agree.

Jyrki

I agree as well

1% is good for me.

1% back up is the way to go.
(makes it even harder in Scandinavia due to few runs at the events ;D )

For T. Ø Skinne.

Looks like we have some sense now that the dust has settled :o

As agreed this certainly isnt the place to put down anyones achievments, so lets keep to positives. Like my mother used to say 'if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing..'

Personally speaking, I have a lot of respect for Matt and Marco building All Torque and producing the hp they did, but I kept this out of the discussion, commending the Skinne car as it looked like someone was trying to exclude it. My minor remark about Marco was to to commend him as well in the same sentance...

What started out as me just trying to add some perspective to the discussion quickly turned into a full on assault at my comments.

My experience was a friendly bunch..till now!

1% or no 1% once its agreed its just the panned definition to box off.... ;D

Then lets move on :P

OK just a thought....
maybe the pan or race car, could be :
Pan w/std or lightly modified suspension
Pan w/heavy mods or tube chassis

Then yes norm asp and power adder in the two classes.

Now maybe also........ add cc's into the mix too? say upto 2000 and above - i know this effectively doubles the amount of record holders, but as this isn't a 'top ten' is that really a problem? ...... or maybe that should be just one - quickest <2000cc

and another possibility......... street legal, just outright - the quickest street legal ( also to add that should be using street tyres for that time too - not swapped for slicks, then threads back on)

looking forward to it however it ends up  8)

... a fifth class for Outlaw sounds good in my ears.

Hi everyone!
I think we all got stuck, but I think we all are aiming in the same way - we do it for fun, we want to have records so we have something to compare ourselves against, talk about and to strive towards. I think we have to trust in each other that we are following the rules "to the best of my understanding" and not by having "judges" to check everything and we all know by heart basically in what class our car belongs - we have to be able to "give and take" a bit. Anyway, I have tried to summarize my thoughts and have come up with 2 scenarios, one where we don't bother about engine sizes and one where we take that into account and in the end my thoughts on backing the record up.
 
Car types: VW type doorslammers/cabriolets and buggies – no dragsters allowed.
Body and mods: free
Engine: VW flatfour boxer pushrod type engine – WBX and water allowed.

Pancar:
Front end: free
Rear end: Original length springplates, original width of torsion housing, springtension must be obtained by torsion bars, changed to/from swing/IRS ok as long as ”original” is obtained, panforks including torsion housing must remain in origininal height horisontally relative the pan, raised gearbox/engine ok in conjunction with the above. Original shockabsorber mounting must be used, no coilovers or other spring types allowed.

Racecar:
Anything else

Outlaw class:
Any of the above with rotary engine, overhead camshaft engine etc – any power adder allowed.

Classes with no engine sizes:

Class 1: Pancar, NA
Class 2: Pancar, power adder
Class 3: Racecar, NA
Class 4: Racecar, power adder
Class 5: Outlaw

If we want to divide by engine size – 2 engine size classes:

Engine sizes:
 
NA class A: less or equal to 2584 cc (96,7 x 88)
NA class B: 2585 cc and above
Power adder class A: less or equal to 2000 cc
Power adder class B: 2001 cc and above

So classes would be (if engine sizes are used)

Class 1 A: Pancar, NA maximum 2584 cc
Class 1 B: Pancar, NA 2585 cc and above
Class 2 A: Pancar, Power adder maximum 2000 cc
Class 2 B: Pancar, Power adder 2001 cc and above
Class 3 A: Racecar, NA maximum 2584 cc
Class 3 B: Racecar, NA 2585 cc and above
Class 4 A: Racecar, Power adder maximum 2000 cc
Class 4 B: Racecar, Power adder 2001 cc and above
Class 5: Outlaw
 
Records must be backed up within 1% during the same event. If the difference is more than 1%, the slower time will be the record time. In case of 2 digits on the timeslip, the third digit will automatically be a ”9” i.e a 9,50 will be considered a 9,509

:)
Johan

Nice work Johan!

That make sense to me  ;D

Thanks!
Any thoughts anyone!?
Johan

what is the reasening behind the 2484?, just asking

Jesse!
I was thinking that 96,7 is the biggest one can fit with the original cylinder head bolt pattern (used in PRA Super Street) and of course one can use more than 88mm in stroke, but just to put the limit somewhere! It's my thinking so I don't say it's "right" in anyway!
:)
Johan

Hi all!
Maybe this has chilled down a bit - any thoughts on how and if we shall proceed!?
:)
Johan