The Cal-look Lounge

This is something I have been thinking about for AGES and its ones of those small but VERY important detail (to me anyhow) that will help to bring together the overall "Look" I am trying to get with PROJECT 66  :)

Basiclly its where the flange for the muffler/silencer sits in relation to the body work - I have been scanning LOADS of old pic's and if you take a these below you will see that on most 70's era car the Flange sits BEHIND the rear valance - now I think this looks much cleaner and will give PROJECT 66 that proper 70's look  ;)

So what your thoughts guys  ??? Who made these type of headers  ??? Does ANYONE do them these days  ???

Well, my friend, I know one the cars you pictured has a Four Tuned (Gene Berg) header and another has S&S headers.
All the cars have a non-merged collectors and therefore fit behind the apron.
Here are a couple of pictures showing the differences between merged and non merged collectors..........higher performance or cleaner look?

That's why I'm liking the the A1 sidewinder, merged and clean look, with the collector (3rd picture)

Marc
DRA

Very well explained Marc! The transition of a race part to the street scene can be somewhat profound, example. In 74' I paid $175 for a set of merged 1 5/8 headers by Chas Morse...very racy. Within a year S&S headers had a similar system on the market...half the price, no waiting.
Oh well.

i was about to say that too, they ran non-merged headers. but if you'd look at dave rhoads '64, chop top etc. those headers look more like the ones made today.

And then there's the question: Do you fit a non-merged header and have less perf, with a "proper 70's look" or do you care about your engine and will fit a decent merged header? ;)

Decisions,decisions,but I think it's up to you Lee,because it's your car.But I agree,it's not easy.

the price to pay to be "period correct" :-X

Thanks Buddy - Very well explained, I can't believe i didn't work that one out  ::)

So I guess the next question is - Just how much difference will a NON merged header actually make  ???  :)

Hi Lee,

that is a very good topic! I don´t like the way modern exhaust systems are exposed behind the car so I alway modify my headers for a good fit of the muffler.
After a little searchins in the internet I found this header which is 1 5/8" in diameter but isn´t merged or of the sidewinder type:

http://www.vwspeedshop.com/product.php?productid=16240&cat=371&page=1

This could be the ideal base for a custom made header/muffler combination, don´t you think? ;) Maybe some engines produce more power with merged headers but if it´s just a marginal plus I would rather use an non-merged header if you don´t need a header with bigger tubing.
Bye,

Tobi

Just had a thought - as far as I can make out this is a merged header BUT it looks very "shallow" ie not too far from the motor - Like a NON mereged  :-\

I thought this one might get some interest  ;) anyway that speedshop one looks pretty cool BUT I have also been think for a while about having one Custom made  :o

I have watched alot of those "build a race car" and "My kit car" programms and there are a number of places in the uk that will basiclly build you ANY custom exhaust/header you want in ANY material with all the correct sizes/lengths etc - Now this might be a more expensive route but at least I can get what I want  :)

I was also wonder if anyone knew the maths behind working out the best diameter/primary length etc  ??? I know this is getting very technical but if I am going to do it then I might as well do it properly  ;)

Lee, have a word with Rich Thomas at Turbothomas - he can make whatever exhaust you want. His jig is the back half of a beetle, with valance still in place, and a mocked up engine to make sure everything fits. :)

I
Sounds very interesting dude and sounds like he does a proper job BUT if i was to go to all this effort I would want it made on MY block/case in MY car if you get what I mean ;)

That's cool, he's got space in his unit to do just that - I spent a couple of days there a few years back when he was building the turbo pipework for Andy Kelly's Speedster. :)

I have a 1 5/8 merged Berg 933S header on my 68 beetle and the collector is behind the valence. You can see the collector from behind the car though as the lower half of the collector flange is below the bottom edge of the valence.  If the collector was any higher I don't think you could bolt a muffler to it.

Hmm very interesting - is this an old or new header (ie what year?)  :)

Lee it is not possible,
you can work out a basic size and primary tube length bu only hours on a dyno will show you exactly what works on your engine,you need to look out for an older design merge,4tuned and S&S made what you are looking for in merged design[i personally dont like the S&S version as the colector area is quite different and prone to pulling off the tubes],Bergs also sold them,at least if you find one it will give you something to work with/from.Just for reference a good collector goes for $800/1000 here so figure your perfect system could cost $2000 plus then factor in the cost in pounds paying someone in the UK to do it and you have alot of money invested

cheers richie,uk

 

FORM FOLLOWS FUNCTION! ;D

I see what you mean dude - I just remember hearing there was a equation involving bore/stroke/valve sive/etc but I guess nothing can make up for hours on the dyno ;)

And yes I would LOVE an original 4tuned or S&S header - but just to check are you saying THESE go for $800-1000??? Got any leads???

And again yes I would have alot of money invested but hey its only money  :D

the question is somewhat answered in the posts above this one, but just remember: Lee builds and engine with and S-P-G crank




 ;D

i just read the article in the Bill Fisher book and there it states that an area that needs to be addressed in the future will no doubt be the collector. now being decades later i think it has been done and the merged header works better. that being said, Tobi is on to something and i just wanted to post an interesting experience i had as well in another post about the whole subject.  ;)

thank you!

ok guys I get the hint  ;) also most cars with Dual QPs had MERGED headers  :)

I do already have an original late 70's thunderbirds  header & Dual QP's but I haven't yet seen them  ::) (Mr Keene still has them ;))

No,what I was saying is that a good collector cost $800/1000 now and thats just the start of what you would need to do it properly,but as Nicolas pointed out you arent as you put a door stop in it already :D

cheers richie,uk

Oh ok I get ya - I think I am just gonna not worry on the "where the flange sits" things, I will wait and see what the thunderbird one looks like and then decide.

My friend Rob had one made by Gary H and its awesome looking bit of kit  :) I might just get him to make me one of them - Form follows function ;)

I have an old 1-5/8" type 1 merged 4 tune header without j-tubes if anyone is interested, its $100

Anthony / ISP WEST

How difficult would it be to obtain proper j-tubes for such a system?

Thread jackin guys  ;)

let get back to the look and fit of oldskool headers  :)

                       ACTULLY THE "CHAS HEADER" IS WHERE YOU WANNA LOOK,,, 
                       THE ONE (PHIL "THE GRUNTCAKES"  LEADLEY) IS TALK'N 'BOUT....   
                                            CHAS BUILT DARRELLS FIAT!!!       
               WE HAVE A CHAS 1 3/4 PORCELIN COAT'D AROUND HERE SOMEWHERE!!!!
                                            ONE VERY TALENT'D PERSON!!!               
                      JOHN RUE OF PHOENIX HEADERS,,,   HIS SON IS NAMED CHAS!!!!
                                                                                                                            DOUG....

Didn't Jon Rue also Work or Own 4 Tuned Doug??

on mine I used a non merged like this one

(http://www.chircoestore.com/catalog/images/251159L.jpg)

with an original ansa muffler.

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_j5YMO-ms6rk/Sre1WWtKKII/AAAAAAAAGB8/_mQ1svEEKuM/s800/IMG_1250sml.jpg)

hey lee,

if you decide to either get one made to fit (or do-it-yourself?)  maybe give these dudes a try.....

http://www.ojzengineering.co.uk/

cheers....Jick

I always like teh look of the berg 1 1/2 street header with dual QP's that my brother ran on his car when he first got it.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/streetvw/img077.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v493/streetvw/paul1.jpg)

I'm sure someone knows better than me but I'm pretty sure that it was a pheonix system?

It's an older Berg header, I think from the 90's before the current generation header they are making now.  I don't know what the newest Berg Headers look like but I can't imagine them changing them much.  I bought the header (among other parts) from Rick M a while back. I will try to take some pictures and post them this weekend.

just found this in old mag , but don't know if it helps  ;)

Thanks Fabs - I'll have a proper read once I've read all my other replies  ::) ;)

When you start to read text books on this subject, or nascar forums you soon understand that there is a reason the article stops were it stops...  you just don't want to know how complex this calculating a collector stuff is...  the only practical solution are some quick experiments on the dyno.
Calculating dimensions of pipes and lengths are relatively "easy" but when you come to the collector and the gain you would get from the perfect one you are on deeeeep water. But help is out there... these guys have a good name in the racing scene and they can do the calculations, and make you a collector: http://www.burnsstainless.com/

But I think you are in luck.... if you want a engine with some revs to it and hp despite a small displacement all factors point towards a exhaust that would please you eye...  short pipes and a stubby collector with a rather large outlet. ;)

BTW have been thinking about this topic for quite some years now.... you know how it is  ;)

Does your conclusion of the matter in point in any way involve the cutting of body sheet metal with an angle grinder?  :D

The point is to avoid that... right?

Thanks for droppin in JHU - I know this kinda stuff gets REALLY complex and I am gonna be reading ALOT,

I am not "too worried" about the small loss of power with the header I just want it to look "Right" and perform well ;)

I can see this is gonna take ALOT of thinking  ::)

JHU: Right. Sorry about my misconception. Will welding shut my rear apron make up as my penance?  ;D

Monkiboy: One thing is the header itself, another being the part of the muffler. I suspect you want the quiet pack style with the oh so classic trumpet end. Have you made any decisions on that part? I use a A1 muffler today, but the sheer size won´t let me get it far enough behind the valance as is will not clear the header itself...
The reason I have kept with the A1 one is that is seems to be very unrestrictive.

It sure looks like a Phoenix system. I have a Berg GB933S and it's made by Phoenix.
(http://www.glenn-ring.com/temp/lottermann1.jpg)

Its gotta be Dual QP's dude but I am yet to find the perfect "look" :-\

I wanted the classic Cal Look engine (2180, dual IDAs, Blue Coi, Bosch 010) and it has to be dual QPs. The Berg fits really well and tight to the body.

I adjusted your list for you seeing as you made a couple of mistakes  ;)

I will be honest and say my personal favourites are the Goss choptop and Dave R green 64 - for me these are PERFECT, I am probably gonna canibalise a couple of different sets of dual QP's and make my own set that has that "look" I am after  :)

Lee RX all the way for me you know you want to.  :P :D ;D

Hecho en California, eventually. The mañana muffler!  8)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/SanchoPancho/SuperFuzzBigMuff01.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/SanchoPancho/SuperFuzzBigMuff02.jpg)

Or no muffler at all, eh Martin? ;) ;D