The Cal-look Lounge

folks.....trying to mount my 72 plate oil cooler with fan in a position thats not going to affect/interfere with the csp torque bar that i'm installing....i want to make sure its got plenty of air around it....but i just cant see a way of mounting the cooler without stopping me instaling my torque bar.....is there a smaller cooler with fan on the market?? (i have the massive bugpack branded one)...... i did think about going down the route of using a mocal cooler without fan and ducting fresh right to it!! but i dont know/not sure how this will compare.....a 115mm x 19 or 25 row cooler would fit a treat.....any help would be greatly appreciated as at the moment i'm stuck :(

hi,

I tihink takt there arent any smaller oil coolers without electric fan.
maybe ou could try to put a cooler on the front beam (without fan) and maybe two under the car atached to the flore.
is youre car a street car or race car?

I got that huge oil cooler mounted on my friends car, that car also has a CSP torque bar. It now sits in front of the drive-axle on the driver-side, with plenty of air. Took me an entire day of welding and thinking, didn't want to drill or weld the car. I will try to take some pics of it.

Try these: http://www.aircooled.net/new-bin/viewproductdetail.php?keyword2=ECO0039&cartid=

(http://www.aircooled.net/images/pphotos/eco0039.jpg)

only $250, but the best.

Cooler and fan dimensions are 8 1/4' long, 6" wide, and 6" tall. The actual cooler is only 7" wide, it's 8 1/4" from the edge of mounting flange to edge of mounting flange.

Hi,
I had the same problem as you (I have a 96 plate cooler with fan) and spend hours to find a good working solution. :( In the end I fabricated some extensoins made of old (crap!) Bugpack HD aluminium pushrods. ;)
Hope this helps...
Bye,

Tobi

More...

Even more... ;)

I use the same method , but use T4 pushrods , as they are the right size to tap for M6 thread .

Except I still use the rubber blocks for insulating the vibration from the cooler as much as possible .

(http://www.funkenblitz.com/upload/Temp 213.jpg)

(http://www.funkenblitz.com/upload/2004_0819jason0002.jpg)

I have used both of those coolers, and they work great! First I used the single fan pack, then I upgraded to the dual fan pack on my 1776 type 3 engine. I had them mounted on the drivers side, fans on top pulling air up, parrallel to the ground, in the corner where the torsion housing meets the frame horn. It was a tight fit, but it worked. I also used 2 thermostats- one was at the oil filter preventing oil to the cooler until it reached 180 degrees, the other was after the oil cooler. It switched on the fans if the oil coming out of the cooler was 180+.

thanks folks thats great help ;D thats a tight fit for sure tobi did you mount the csp bar before the cooler??? nice clean under carriage btw ;D.....right i'm off out to the garage to have a play and see what fits :)

Thanks Spennyp! ;D Yes, I fitted the torque bars first and it was the only way to mount the cooler as it´s really huge. Those rubber mounts used by Peter are a good idea as well although I haven´t had any problems with the vibrations so far though my gearbox is solid mounted as well. Maybe I will try those rubber blocks anyway...

I don't use the torque bar system , as I have found that you still get wheel-hop , on 2 individual cars ( 1 Ghia , 1 Beetle ) .

I also don't like the way it clutters up the underside of the gearbox area , making it hard to mount oil coolers , as you have found out .

I am also trying to go away from solid mounts as our club guys drive their cars a lot , and the solid mount damage is taking it's toll , I am trying our CDS tube fabricated system , that ties the gearbox mount yoke to the inner wings , using CB Rhino mounts for the street , with a swappable solid yoke for drag racing .

On Mark's 55 , pictured below , I am going to tie it into the RLR roll cage .

(http://www.funkenblitz.com/upload/IMG_4646.jpg)

(http://www.funkenblitz.com/upload/IMG_4651.jpg)

(http://www.funkenblitz.com/upload/IMG_4656.jpg)

(http://www.funkenblitz.com/upload/IMG_4652.jpg)

(http://www.funkenblitz.com/upload/IMG_4662.jpg)

(http://www.funkenblitz.com/upload/IMG_4425.jpg)

(http://www.funkenblitz.com/upload/IMG_4412.jpg)

Hey peter,
like the set up, did you also think of mountig the bar to the rear shock mount..?

Kind Regards Edgar

No , this setup is so solid , it isn't necessary .

I'm glad you like the work .

thats very neat Pete....you shoud go into production fella....got the cooler mounted just like tobi in the end but thanks for the input....i might go down a different route next time.....but after the pain this car has caused that will probably be a long long way away.....unless of course the sound of IDA's is as great as everyone makes out  :)

another quick cooler question.......do you guys just run an on/off switch for the fan???

Set it up to a thermostat. That way if the oil leaving the cooler is over 180-190, then the fan(s) automatically switch on.

I personally prefer it on a switch , the thermostats that come with the mesa cooler , is a very fragile piece .

I use a switch with a red LED in the end , that way you know if power is going to the fan , I have had a fuse blow on one before , and the LED going out gave away the problem , before it became one .

Plus you can leave the fan on when you pull up and turn the motor off ,and it sounds cool  :D

Hi Spennyp, I use a standard in-line thermostat in between the oil filter and the cooler and a simple switch for the cooler fan as i think it doesn´t have to have another thermostat (I have a oil temp. gauge in my dashboard)...
I have another question: do you still have 4 O-rings for original EMPI 5-spokes left?

Thanks folks......running an inline thermostat and i'll sort a simple on/off swith for the fan....and yes i have some 5 spoke 'o' rings

Hi Spenny. Sounds like you have your hands full. I have run a kmocal pancake thermostat which the oil filter mounts into and a switch.

The switch is partilally hidden in the front plate which would normally go under the seat and it is just tucked in behind the roll cage.  This way it is close to the fan and the battery so no messing about re running wires and you can stil do as Pete said and run the fan when the car is stopped if you want to.

To be fair in this weather we none of us need fans! lol!

 

I have tried the torque bar sytem , it would be excellent but for one problem , it mounts to the shock towers , which are tall and can move around a fair bit , if the torque bar was bolted to the body or something more substanial , it would work perfectly .

It also makes it a little cramped under the car , and harder to mount oil coolers etc .

Mike Sylvester is one of the people I know that use the torque bar setup , and it did still wheelhop , but he fitted a traction bar as well , and it was fine , to be fair .

The problem I had with wheel hop , was with a Ghia , and you can't really use a traction bar , as the rear overhang is more than on a Bug , and it can cause problems flexing the rear wings under load .

The system I use , is one that Paul at VW Speedshop came up with . Origionally the CDS uprights bolted to a bit of angle bolted through the boot floor . This worked fine , but did tend to damage and squash the boot floor a bit , and it would have been a shame to damage the luggage area , on the cars just being done , with immaculate painted boot floors  .

So we came up with the system we use now , it can be joined onto a cage if necessary ( as it is on paul's 9 sec Bug )

The bars could probably be smaller , but there are no clearance problems with the exhaust or anything , and I tend to over engineer everything .

The only recent change is trying to go away from solid mounts , as it is damaging the cars , with the regular street milage they get .

Intermediate mounts, CSP bar, Mocal cooler by gearbox, major wheel hop issues!
























AT THE FRONT!!!!!!  ;D

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/SanchoPancho/General/f28cb779.jpg)

I got stock vw gearbox mounts with a traction bar on my 67 and had no wheel hop so far. It has ran a best of 13.9 at bitburg last year will be a bit faster this year so we will have to wait and see if we get wheel hop then.

I use all Berg HD mounts, an Berg intermidiate mount and a Berg traction bar on my car. Never had wheel hop.. Maybe I just don't make enough power, lol.

No but plenty of broken gearboxes , including one snapped in half I remember seeing a picture of in the mags  :o

And don't tell me it's down to horsepower , Paul Hamilton has NEVER broken a gearbox in his 9 second Bug ( plenty of horsepower there ) , and he uses the same method as I do , so we must be doing something right  ;)

I believe the bus gearbox Richie has in there now has had breakages too .

So if you don't mind I'll stick to doing it my way thanks  ;D ;D ;D

And , to be very clear on this , i'm not taking the piss , or being arsey , just stating what I believe , so ...

I'm not taking anything away from what is a very very fast car , in my opinion , I beliieve that if it spent less time going up in the air , it would have run a 9 a long time ago , it clearly has the power to  8)

Which would be great as Ritchie has spent a trememdous amount of dedicated time and effort developing the car , which I take my hat off to !!

I am just stating that I believe that movement causes breakages , and I try and eliminate as much movement as possible .

The system Pete has come up with is in fact virtually identical to what I designed and fabricated (but welded in place) in Flashback in about 1997 or whenever it was. Seems such an obvious answer to me although I can understand that some people won't want to cut holes (or weld) the panel behind the seat. However, form does follow function… ;D

I didn't come up with the system I use , Paul Hamilton did . I have just modified it to make it look more hardcore , and less belt and braces .

Using a similar system Keith , did you suffer many breakages when you were racing ?  If my memory serves me right , I think you told me you hadn't ?

I don't mind cutting or welding the boot floor area , but Alex has done such a lovely job on restoring the cars , that I'm trying to damage the paintwork the least .

Breakages? Nah, I just blew two ring and pinions apart! Call that a breakage? Pah! ;D In fairness, neither could be attributed to the mounts. One was over-exuberance on my part (er, showing off in front of Super VW offices...) and the other was a result of reusing that same case.   ::)

Comparisons between Hamilton's car and The Cabrio are pointless. Breakages? It's a question of weight and power and in both these key areas the two cars are very different. With respect to the various solutions and their relevance to the initial enquiry here Paul's version of the system is joined to the cage (as you yourself point out) and that makes it completely different and for that reason any comparison to the application in a street car where the system is not joined to a cage is a waste of pixels.

It's simple, this thread was about CSP's system, it works and can be mounted with a cooler. regardless of the type of mountings there is a very good example of a clean installation in a 12 second street car earlier in the thread. As with all of their stuff it is a quality piece offering both form and most importantly function. I will put a CSP set up in my car at the same time as the gearbox is done, I'm not sure that I'll need it but it's not like it's going to wreck the car or anything.

With Mike Sylvester's car there is probably a simpler solution to his problem? Both our cars are a similar weight and he's run a 13.7 (I think?) whilst I've done a 13.6 so we're in the same ballpark. I have no hop thanks to a ten buck solution that runs as well on the street as it does on the strip. Every launch has been super smooth since this solution was adopted. I'm sure you'll be able to fix Mike up with something similar. I'd have to say I haven't ever given it any real work off of the line though which is why I'm putting in a CSP when the box comes out.

In your numerous posts replying my initial one you make some other points, if it makes you happy then why not and yes I did read your other post in the Gasser thread and no, I won't be having a beer with you any time, ever, thanks!

 :)

Something I'm intrigued about is that the Chop-Top was a heavy car (2000lbs), ran stock torsion bar rubbers (well-worn ones at that), had simple front and rear solid mounts, a crappy traction bar, bus snubbers and ancient Koni shocks yet never suffered wheel hop on slicks or radials and never broke a single transmission component in its Type 1-based box (the casing of which had already done a couple of seasons in No Mercy). Did I ever bother about preloading the trans against the handbrake? Only in as much as I used to shallow stage and generally crept the car slowly forward while waiting for the yellow (never noticed until someone pointed it out!). Can't help thinking that maybe allowing everything to move a little saves on breakages! By making everything very rigid, the problem is always going to be transferred down the line to the final weakest link. I really don't know, but I'm not 100 per cent convinced by the CSP solution as wheel hop is not a problem I ever suffered from. Guess I was lucky...

There are many factors causing and curing wheel hop, naming all the combinations would take some time.  But all CSP installations are not the same either. The upper mounting arms are not welded when you get it. If you don't cut the body around the shock mounts you could end up with a big leverage arm in to the shock mount.
BTW the shock mounts are also bolted to the body just a few cm's from the shocks. 

lets not get personal on here hey.......it,s a thread about spence,s oil cooler,not who,s having a beer with who,I,ve read the thread,and no-ones getting personal,so please ,if you want handbags,take it to volkzone

spencer's threads always end up like that...he's a nuisance. :D

  :D thats right i'm a right trouble maker ::) ;) ;D

Well folks my final set up has been thought through...i'll be running a csp torque bar, traction bar, limit straps, solid mounted front and rear tranny and finally a solid mid mount.......many thanks all for the advise on here.......i'll need some advise when i finally acheive my goal and hit the strip...wish me luck folks i'm actually a little nervous....i'm getting there with the car its by no means a minter but i'm starting to get excited again about it  ;D

I was going to quote and modify your post in a comical fashion Spenny, I could see the pun a mile away about munters and getting excited  ;D

::) you sick puppy  ;D

Lets keep this place a friendly one!
Keep it respectfull at all times!

Thanks

Jon Hroar Ulstad

lol! Just as the JG54 mob bully me into submission in Bitburg and wear me down after 74 Bitgurgers you all go girly and stop solid mounting.  ;D ;D ;D. Oh well I always thought conversation on thee 4 hour journeys was over rated and I enyoy the vibration!  :D

For info, if peple are running cages and that cage mounts to the back floor in some way you can take the solid mounting from the cage where it bolts through the floor rather than drill the floor if you need to. Might not be quite as solid I dont know,  but it is a fairly elegant way of getting close with no cutting on a completed car and the inside remains unchanged (for those car tarts out there!)

Spenny, dont forget to post some pics as you go!

I said about solid mounting yours , as you only have the intermediate mount on yours , don't you ?

If so the 2 front rubber blocks aren't enough , probably fine for street driving , but not enough for drag racing .

In the Hot VW's article about fitting a berg 5-Speed , they say that many people have fitted ali blocks to improve the quality of the shifting .

I have modded a intermediate mount for Max's car , and copied the Berg method , and added an extra mounting , so there are 3 rubber blocks going forwards , plus the two intermediate mount blocks , giving a total of 5 rubber blocks holding the nose of the gearbox , hopefully this will improve the quality of shifting for street driving , plus we have the option of fitting ali blocks at the track for racing .

I have put pic's on the Blog , so you can see what I mean .

Indeed they are , One car runs 9's with no drama and without big wheelies  8)

The other runs very low 10's , pulls massive wheelies , goes all over the track , even leaving the track at DAS  :o


Indeed again , the 9 second car doesn't break engines or gearboxes  8)

The other car does  :o


Paul's system , and my version of it , do not need to be joined to a cage , my system bolts through the rear inner wheel arches , and is more than adequate for a high 11 , low 12 second car . You can join the cage to it at a later date , if one gets fitted . That's the beauty of the system , it lets you develop the car , without breaking stuff along the way .

It's hardly a waste of pixels , showing tried and tested solutions to problems , is it ? I have had many email questions from forum users , that like my system  ;)


That's a pity , I have tried several times to bury the hatchet between us  , in the interest of general Cal-look harmony , but you seem determined to perpeptuate  the bad feeling , which is a shame , but there seems to be nothing I can do about it  :(

I'm happy for people to draw their own conclusions about my attitude, that of Pete and the reality and relative merits of what has (and has not) been said.

 :)

That's fair enough Matt .

In return , I would like to state that I have no problem with the CSP set up , it works fine , when used in conjunction of a traction bar , and is a well made piece of equipment , from a company that makes quality parts .

I just prefer my way , that's all .

Thanks Pete. I will let you take a look when I pop down as I dont really understand to be honest . I was only jesting about being forced to solid mount. I dont care- I am hardcore!  ;D :D

 why don't you swap phone numbers and call each other?

Poor spence has given up and gone to the darkside(resto cal) now and has no need for this as he has a nice 1200 with pancake filter fitted :P

both cars are blisteringly quick and approach the problem of wheel hop in different ways. both ways work.

next to gay porn, arguing is the other thing that i don't like about the net.

let's keep it friendly on here ;D

looks like i spent too long on that reply :)

Erm, trying not to offend anyone on here :), but how does a gentleman such as yourself Ben have knowledge of gay porn on the net? ;)

;D
Martin.

It's like Tampons, you know what they're for and where they go, but you choose to ignore them.............................when you use the ladies toilets ;D

How bloody dare you !!!! ;)......pics when its done fellas honest  ;D

You are now you have taken that gay hemeroid helper off of your car.

  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

lol! ;D.
Had a great time ripping today, wop wop!.. although the lack of down force did make me nervous ;) ;)

easy solution, do like I do............eat more pies ;D ;D

ALex , are you up and running now>?