The Cal-look Lounge

ok hmm here's the plan (maybe Jim might find this odd yet interesting.. lol i hope)

an odd ball of an engine

88mm machine in  p/c
74mm stroke crankshaft
rods - yet to figure out if i should have the stockers rebuilt or get some cb unitech's or rebuilt rods from brothers or chico
sumthing decently priced would be great

35.5x32  SP head (to be ported and a good valvejob)
single HD springs and chromo retainers

chromo pushrods 

Engle w-110  cam
bugpack racing lifters (if i could get away with brazilians  i would.. but i may not risk that )

ICT sp manifold (gona be modded to work with kadrons)  will take pics once the fabbing goes underway
should give a good taper from the carb base down to the port entry..
myt work well (atleast in my head)

Kadron 40s , prepped and set by Art Thraen  of ACE

already have an extractor type header (non merge)

but would like to try a 1 1/2 merged header or maybe 1 5/8 (dunno.. was under the impression the bigger one myt help top end) since sp heads provide good torque and grunt

+ all the bits and pieces, like full flow cover, plugged oil pump n blueprinted, etc 

- was wondering are the single HD's ok ? or would duals be better in the long run..
- compression was thinking 8.1:1  static   (maybe sum seasoned brothers could shed a comment on this)
- have forgotten a few details, will add more as i remember   
- all opinions and suggestions are gona be very much welcome,
- not really gona race in Prostock  so.. top power isnt much of a concern.. just sumthing fun and different
  plus living at sea level but with nearby hills.. low end grunt and torque should be fun on a daily

fire away guys


ps- if this is the wrong section/forum  hope the mods could put it in the right place

thanks..

oh and its going into this white turd  ;D


(http://i420.photobucket.com/albums/pp290/twinsohc/bugbug.jpg)

maybe then i could rightfully go to 195/55/15 fronts and 215/65/15 rears

currently its on 195/60/15s on all 4s

plus id have an excuse to change the pea shooters

current engine is a 1500cc sp

Hi
I think you can go with a bigger cam.

Udo

I agree with Udo,

cousin of mine is building a 78x85.5 engine with stock ported heads and 40mm webers.
Cam is a w120.

Depends how it runs he might switch to bigger valve heads

perhaps a webcam 218 or 163?
if it were dual port, jim ratto described a nice 14 second car with a webcam 110 cam and 40IDFs. do a search on SODA or S.O.D.A. can't remember.

Why ruin such a fine engine with single port heads??  Give it a set of dual port heads and you will be HAPPY ;D

Just my two cents.


/Rolf

Agree with all the others, a set of stock dual port heads will be better than a set of ported single ports, so if you are having headwork done, you may as well go for some dual port heads.

More compression,and why not use kadron sp manifolds?

cheers richie,uk

wow thanks for the replies (loving it!)

first of

thank you Udo for the first reply..
to answer to your suggestion / opinion  on running a bigger cam (sure who doesnt want that?)
- i was trying to avoid the typical, super cammed, high strung untested aproach though if you guys have suggestions im really open to it ,  at first i was opting for the mild stuff, simply for the reason of running Kadron 40s and SP heads

thanks for the opinions and suggestions very much apriciated


Ralf,

double checked the posts, and my main worry is.. IF i had 40idf's or even 44idf's most def i would have gone to an engle 120 atleast or web110 , but my worry right now is more on the fact that i am using Kadron40s 
is a bigger advertized duration then 284* ok with 1bbl duals?  would like to try avoiding the ports canibalizing each other's air/fuel source

about the singleport heads, i do agree on the capabilities of the dp head, even in stock form.. no doubt
i do however have the singleport heads handy right now.. actually 2 sets , and no dp heads

the porting part,  (i port cylinderheads, but not vw) not saying i know what im doing, but i think id follow the how to HR vw book
and clean the ports up and perform a good valvejob to it..  which wont really cost me anything  (finding a set of dp could be really hard here too) 

anything else we can throw in the mix.. and consider or talk about?

im really not trying to race this thing, just sumthing good for daily, 
i or we could always build sumthing funner after this engine, that i am sure of 

-udo
-deed, 67-indeed/dvk
-bewitched
-callook_67 / rolf
-neil davies
-richie,uk

thanks for the replies guys  very very much apriciate it

Ralf,

about the ict manifold  ;D

i tried looking for sumthing in SP form for the kadron's and most are either pricey or just busted up steel units
(not that im complaining with the price, as rare as that is.. every seller would se fit to price it accordingly)


so the ICT manifold was cheap and easily obtainable
+ our fabricator could do the adapters for free to me LOL 

would just be a simple procedure
cut a 8mm thick alu flange  to match the ICT manifold's opening/entry (carb base)
weld up an alu tubing of apropriate ID and OD  (maybe 1.5-2inch tall)  and weld on top of it.. a 8mm thick flange that matches the kadron base

should prolly put it at the same total height (kadrons) when using the EMpi manifolds for dp hehehe

Ralf,

I would switch to dual port heads, you will get the best of all worlds and go more aggressive on valve timing and lift. I think the big merged header on those single port heads is going to make them over scavenge. You need a balance.
If you go 35 x 32 dual port and do a simple "garage clean up" on the intake and exh ports, send them out for a nice valve job, and still run your Kadrons, with Engle 120 or Web Cam 110, my thoughts would be to use 1-1/2" header. use stock VW rods but have them clearanced for 74mm stroke. I used bone stock VW rods in the 74 stroke on my stand but had to clearance notches in roof of the case to clear. Not a big deal, but I think clearanced rods are prettier (little bit lighter too) than a case with grooves ground in the roof... but it's what we had. If you go 120 Engle or Web 110 I would use the Bugpack 4046 springs, put a .030 shim under them.
If you stay single port just realize that you can't go too wild on valve timing or you'll have a lot in intake reversion and the carbs won't know if they're bolted on right side up or not.
have fun

I did not see the sp on your post . Dual port heads will give you much more power  and if you take some new 043 they are easy to port and polish . You can sell the 2 sets of sp heads.
Kadron's are ok ...

Udo

I cant remember on the sp version,but on the dual port kadron manifold it has almost a small plenum to help with each cylinder pulling from 1 carb to balance things out,not sure if the ict manifolds do?

cheers richie,uk

thanks mr brownshorts jim (or is that sum1 elses shorts LOL)


thoroughly understood your point Jim, as i still hold close the pm's we exchanged at around exactly 1 year ago LOL reg'ding the engle 120 and or web110

man... and i just finished cleaning up the 2 sets of sp heads here, so theyre ,well easy to hold and not get ur hands dirty..

Udo  noted of that  thanks!

i might give that a shot.. but maybe not for now

does everyone think the engle w110 is fine for SP heads + kadrons @ 8.1:1 comp ? (95-96oct. pump is available)  

looks like the DP head would be a nice step up , to when we get to the point that the above engine, needs freshen up, maybe after one year of daily use,  pull the engine , crack open case, replace bearings, cam  , change head studs, and assemble as DP

how's that sound?  



thanks Jim and Udo!   nice to see awesome minds share their thought

and in that thought, Jim u could sell me bits n pieces of that engine on the stand.. more reason to keep it in the stand

HAHAHAHAHA kidding man!

Ralf,

you're right Richie,   looking at the EMPI manifolds i have right now here,  theres  roughly half inch of single dia. space right below the carb base flange, bfor it splits into 2 (with divider)  asuming the BP units have this same thing.. 


but i was thinking, for SP's  wouldnt that be just a bigger albeit huge'r LOL plenum since the divider is in the ports of the sp head itself? 

always was curious to why this was how it was, looking at the speedwell sprint kits, the single runner length is long for some odd reason 
although one reason could be the carbs on those are kinda "side draft" so it has to bend to accomodate..

curious to how kadrons (the sp manifolds ive seen in pics) are also longer, than their dp counterpart

another reason i wanna try the sp aproach, not to prove sumthing or to try outrun dp's  but more so to learn sumthing..

prolly learn that im hard headed i know hahahaha


Ralf,

It was time to stop picking on my buddy Carlos... he gets enough grief from the rest of DKP (not to mention Fullerton PD)... so I changed my avatar.

Anyway, RF why not just build the motor with dp heads the first time out? the time and money spent on updating it later and opening up bottom end later and swapping things... I would get the bucks saved up to find some VW dual ports (not Huber aftermarket), 043's like Udo said (I ported a nice set of 043's 40 x 35 over this past year, nothing radical.. 35mm intake port, nice blend into valve pocket), and use the Web 110 from the get go. Single port heads are becoming harder to find, so maybe you can get some good dough for those...
The motor I am spending my life on for Sheep... I would never suggest anybody else do what he is doing. But, like most things he does, it will work for him and only him.

hahaha sorry man.. wasnt picking on the shorts really..  i have that same kind of shorts thats why
(wait thats for another thread)



sigh...    now its gona be weird.. looking for a set of DP heads 

the other one ... send me sumthing DP  half way across the world  will ya LOL! kidding



ok will have to reevaluate things,  and monetary issues too.. 

prob is i do have the engle w100 ,w110 and w120  handy right now

being that il also be rebuilding the other beetle's engine the brazilian 1979 (currently 1300cc late model) upgrading it to turn to a stock 1585dp motor  with whatever cam i do not use (most likely it will get the w100) 

things il be ordering soon are
lifters (bugpacks as per Theotherone)
pushrods
springs and ret.


Ralf,

wish I had some good dual ports sitting around, I'd sell you some cheap... years ago I had them stacked up like towers. I was using them as wheel chocks to hold cars in the driveway.  ::)

Good luck

hahaha wow!!!     well... i will try my best to source some DP heads here

good thing is.. aftermarket heads are quite uncommon here, so most def if im in luck.. id find some 040 or factory dp's

i might opt for

CBperformance's Unitech rods (not the hd plus)  being that they should be clearanced for strokers

(dont mind doing grinding though)

cuz i cant realy drive around so-cal sourcing out good rebuild stroker clearanced factory rods


unless someone has a good source for em' ?

thanks hehe

Hello.
I never was much of a fan of the W110 cam, except for the power that it can give. But in this case I would say that it most likely would be about the best off the shelf cam choice you could make, followed up by a Web 218/119 retarded 2 degrees for better vacum at idle.
The single ports will "limit" upper end performance and rpm, so HD single springs will be enough. I would suggest CB lightweight lifters over Bugpack, for the weight alone.
A 1½" header is more than sufficient. Most likely a 1 3/8" will do the job too. It´s not so much the exh. that needs help, but the intake.
I would raise the CR to 9 - 1. 8-1  just makes for a lazy engine.

I know what is and has been said about sgl port heads, - and do also agree, to some extend. For milder engines where people look more for good overall torque you can get quite some way with sgl. ports, without ever being able to reach a good ported DP head of course.

Right now I´m playing a little with a 1600 sgl. port with a VERY mild cam, ported heads and Kads. It was relatively easy to get the first 70 hp out of it. But it does not want to bleed much torque above 4500 rpm. which means that top speed is also at 4500 rpm. But power from idle to just over 4000 is good. I´m going to make a couple of small changes to see if I can extend the torque another 300 rpm or so.
T

that was a 88 x 69 with Roger Crawford 35 x 32 heads, Web 110, 8.5:1, 40IDF Webers w/ 32mm vents, 1-1/2 merged header in Bryan's '65 stock Bug

Torben thank you for your input..

i see some one else.. had the same thing in mind as i had.. when i started the thread



the other one -   thats one cool motor!!!

jim will apriciate this



- just got a pair of dual port heads off a 1302 ,  cost is equivalent to 150$ pair


looks like sumthings working out right LOL

another thing is..

i cant seem to find this 4046 BP dual springs online.. wonder where i can source them

so naturally the choices ive found wer

CB dual springs and CB chromo ret.

or DRD/darrens  high rev spring kit, duals and retainers


still unsure on cam choice as id like this to last atleast a year or so not necesarily 2yrs lol
daily driven (everyday) and traffic stop n go..

dunno what others experience with w120  on that kind of use..
would like to hear them though...

thanks guys

4046 springs are $59.99 at VWParts.net
good luck, sounds like it's gonna be a champ... especially if you follow the specs of the engine of Jim's buddy. ;)

hey thanks died!!

i kept finding the 4047 ones.. didnt know if there was a diff except for the +1 digit LOL


now the next worry..

engle w120  for daily and stop n go traffic..

and i mean traffic like 1-2 hours to get to the next 50km LOL

web 110 if you follow the recipe  ;)

i could and would follow the recipe if it was gona be a 1/4 mile car
 no offense to anyone and ofcourse not to sound like im not taking in opinions..

i do have the 3 engle grinds already.. ordering from the u.s. is costly ,

and curiously id like to know from the other one/jim how hard or not hard are the web110 on the valvetrain , lifter bores etc

this beetle/engine wont be raced, purely street and sole daily driver


thank you died for the sharings,   (you could share ur beetle il take it anyday hahahahahaha kidding)

when SODA went to 74 stroke (from 69mm) he went to Web 86B with 1.5 rockers. The Web 110 was in the 1679.
The 120 will slog along in traffic with the best of them. Don't worry.

sorry 3rd world country (brain) working

the 120 will slog along in traffic with the rest of them =  good thing? hahahhaha



im actually more worried with longevity, be it valvetrain (springs and ret)  pushrod  lifter bores etc

if it lasts for 1 year  im happy.. 1yr is enough reason to refresh the motor LOL

i cover about 15,000-17,000 km  in 5months

not sure how much or less that is  over there in the sunny side  jim?

I consider the W120 a "daily driver cam" with swivel feet, good dual springs, ground keepers, chromo pushrods, and geometry set correctly, it will live a long life. Use a good oil, make sure it is kept no hotter than 200F, you will have nothing to worry about.
If you had bigger Webers instead of Kadrons you could go Engle 125

ahhh thats what i totally forgot!! swivel feet

care to direct me to a good set on those?


yes sir..  once assembly goes underway.. this place is where its at.. il document and all

including mishaps and potential troubles.. hahaha  i anticipate them..

not sure if id start a new thread for the head porting/refreshing alone..

what everyone thinks? 

thank you Jim.. most valuable opinions indeed!!!

on a sidenote..

mimd if u can pm me.. on how the range or ballpark figure is.. for 44idf's  in ur area jim? 

just checking..

are these the good BP's ?

im asuming theyre the 4047 ones.. whats the diff vs the 4046?

http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C12%2D4016%2D11

not quite sure dude, if i remember correctly 4047-10 are chevy springs. which would be too stiff for your application.
but on the other hand this might be a kit with 4046 springs. best to ask the vendors, and let's hope they know what they're selling  ;)
i got mine from veedub, though they might not (at least were not) listed on their website they had them in stock.

The Web 110 has LESS problems with premature wear than the W120. The work range is about the same. Personally I definitely prefer the Web because it runs less noisy. But the wear has a good deal to do with choice of lifters too. Its not "just" cam related.
Use CB/Scat dual springs. No problem.
As for swvel feets, I use the Porsche style from CB on most engines, apart from the REALLY aggressive ones. Then I step up to Genuine Porsche.
T

deed -  looking at their listing, the other 4046-10 i think is the chevy spring style ones of BP
           not the 4047 ones i linked no? 

torben -  thank you for the input, unfortunately i have the cams handy already so the worry is what spring/retainer set to go with
             the CB duals sound nice, although way cheaper than the BP counterpart
             im worried or should i say, hope to see more vouches for this, cuz it is indeed cheaper, and id like to think
             im not opting for that option for the sole reason that it is cheaper  ;D

i'm not sure nothing is wrong with CB dual springs, they come with their CNC heads and I'm sure many that run those heads run the springs that come with.

The Bugpack 4046's are a thinner wire diam than the 4047, gives you more travel before coil bind. I use their 4046's religously, as the inner / outer springs are a nice interference fit. Sometimes the Scat springs were very loose. I like the inner and outers to be an interference fit. I've had Scat's that wouldn't lift like the Bugpacks either.
Never used CB, sorry don't know anything about them. I know the quality of the 4046's is very high. I've used Berg, Scat, Engle along with Bugpack and I like the Bugpacks best in last 19 years.

good stuff jim!   so the 4046-10  are the chevy style no?

so 4046 is what we need (me)...  dang  got to find those.. looks like veedub's the only place 

i was feeling the same thing on CB's not saying theyre bad obviously ive never tried them

deed- ur right.. its on their cnc heads, again not talkin bad about them but.. seeing a 40x35.5 cnc ported head with singles..
         means one thing.. when they do carry the duals and not put it in some packaged heads
         but thats just me.. 

          one day il try these,    for now.. the 4046 sounds good.. 

just double checked,

as deed mentioned , in vwparts.net/veedubparts

the 4046-10 are the chevy style springs (Jim is this the one ur suggesting)

their 4047-10 are also available

oddly enough cip1 has  the bugpack kits
but seeing the 0.156" outrer spring = 3.962mm 

makes it the 4047 kits? 


sigh... 

4046

http://www.bugpack.com/

gotcha jim!

i did check bugpack's site bfor for the 4046

so it seems  theyre the "chevy" style springs indeed,


quick question though , wouldnt it be overkill for an engle 120 with 35.5x32mm valve head? and kadrons to boot hehe

they are not Chevy
they are std diameter dual springs w/ .156 wire

hahaha stupid me  ;D i hate the number 10  , being the 4060-10 LOL

reread with out my beer goggles (12midnight here lol)

it says for the 4046

"The #4046 features .156 diameter outers and will lift to .630. "

so its def the kits i linked from CIP1 

awesome!  me order soon soon!

I think I see the problem here ...

4046 = hi-rev dual spring applications.

4046-10 = Chevy dual spring applications.

The '-10' designation is the detail/difference between stock outside diameter and the Chevy size springs.

thanks tom!!

ur right.. and i feel like smacking myself on the head..

-10  sucks haha


got it now fo sho,

prob is im not in the U.S  so i rely on online vendors.. so  i think i cant buy direct from BP  hence the reason im trying to be sure and asking toooooo many questions!

ok the spring issue/choice is done and dusted


goin with the 4046 BP springs ,chromo ret. , keepers  set  (.156" wire outer)

,

with the above discussions and all,

how's everyone's thoughts on 1 5/8 merged header?

or 1 1/2 is better? 

would like sumthing where theres room to grow thats why i thought of the 1 5/8

example :  in the future from kadrons , goin to weber IR set ups..  just bolting em on etc

while in the process of completing the parts for the 88x74 
the other beetle is also needing a rebuild

while ive no plans in making it a screamer,  a 1979 (88x69) is in plans hihihi

has hard as the dp heads to find here, (lucky me the 88x74 has a set i found for it waiting to be massaged)


i noticed a place local to me.. has an 040 head and a 311 head , would give it to me for free,

now i wonder, provided that, it would have its seats replaced, bronze racing valveguides installed and ported + valvejob done to it..

is it usable? an 040 and a 311 on an engine? aka different castings

i asume it is fine.. provided that the "portwork" can make the two heads flow the same or work the same...

so..  any opinions guys?

ok  ;D  so i think i got things a little sorted , better than when i started the thread

plan of attack is now the ff:

1800cc

113 casting DP head -   35.5x32 stocker valves, ported (clean up) tri angle valvejob
springs                    -   Bugpack dual springs/chromo ret. and keepers set (4046 springs)
cam                        -   Engle w-120  , 0.435" lift , 294* adv. duration , 253* @ 0.050
Rockers                   -   vw 1.1:1 w/ cb elephant feets (911 clone) on Solid shafts

crank                      -  74mm  chromo
p/c                         -  88mm Machine in sets , with bases turned down to work on a stock 85.5 case opening
Rods                       -  CB Unitech rods 5.4" length ( supposedly clearanced for strokers ) prolly clearance the case lesser
Lifters                     -  Bugpack 4060-10  racing lifters (as advised by Jim/theone)
pushrods                 -  Manton 0.053"  pushrods, uncut
carburetion              -  Kadron dual 40's prepped by Art T. of ACE
exhaust                   - 1 1/2 Bugpack merged header
cooling                    -  late model doghouse with german tin (im trying to complete the tins, coming off a 1302)

case  = dual relief 1970 superbeetle origin,  gotta drill and tap for ff
           blue printed 26mm pump by the book hehe

compression,  i was thinking around 9.2:1  ish    static

sounds good?

now...   ordering... thats the fun part!!

sounds good, have fun!!

are you using the 88s from Chico? i figured that those turned bases would more or less pose the same problems as slip-in 88s. but that's only my guessing...

Good choice to use the 113 original heads ..

udo

yeah those ones..

good thought there died,  although im on the other side of thinking..

just like most turned down 94s , its ok at the base?  

unlike the thinwall 88s  which are thin from slip in bases to slip in tops (head side) ?


i missed out the 60s 70s 80s

hahaha sumthing with this 88mm's that i like...  and wana use / try / do haha

wow thanks Udo,

sumthing good with the 113?  i thought the good ones wer the type 3 311s ?  much like what Fumio liked also?

i did thought they wer 040s  since i thought they wer off a super beetle LOL

til i cleaned them hehe

113 have a good casting too but no aluminium around the intake guide inside the port. I only use them with single springs . As i wrote down i would use hd single springs with your combo.

Udo

awwww yeah

but are they bad when using dual springs (after machining the bosses on th spring bases) ?

wait il check the heads , though its midnight right now

but checking them earlier, the exhaust ports, had meaty aluminum around the valveguide

midnight? where you located, asia?

also interesting tidbit on that intake port u mention (il go to the garage now)  to check it.. though your right..

the combo has changed from engle w110 to engle w120  thus the need to for the bugpack duals

any insight as to why u only use the 113 heads with single springs Udo?

wow died you are fast with math and time haha

yup.. The mexico of Asia

LOL!

mmh, i'm not much for quizzes ;)
but i'd have to go with thailand, partly given the presence of a cal-look scene there ;D

Udo -  the heads have the casting :   113.101.375A 

         any insight about these castings?


died - hehe   wrong answer, try again hahaha

tried to find the solution using your expression of mexico of asia, and there's a number of countries who call themselves as such. thailand, korea and philippines. i'm gonna go with the last one, then. ;)

you're right though

Thailand has sum cal look heads brewing up in the past few years

If you cut the guide boss for double springs they do not have enough press fit for the guides. without aluminium nose inside the port the guides do not have much head material to fit. This is what i recommend,may be others think different. and with your small carburators the engine does not make much rpm's that you need double springs.

Udo

interesting input there mr Udo.. thank you...

that is fine i guess...  since im also pressed to rebuild the 1300sp off my 1979 beetle,  i myt use the 113 head on that, being a stock mild rebuild  , with just new single HD's 

for the 88x74  , looks like i need to find another set of DP heads then...

all good hehehehe (time to go hunting again)   ;D

due to lack of experience...  once again i need opinions on the ff:

 ;D

since the 113 heads as noted by UDO would be good for single springs and milder use..

im opting to use that pair of heads on the 88x69 rebuild , mostly stock with the exception of the kads and extractor type exhaust..

having a hard time finding 040's or any used but in decent condition dp heads local to me..

i figure , maybe i should bite the bullet and buy a "new" casting in the u.s.  but being pressed for cash

the GO1 / autolinea heads sounds interesting ,  i think theyre similar to the 043 heads?
except with 35.5x32 valvesizes

is this ok for street use? 

i found an economic aproach that would let me buy a pair of these (complete heads)
and i can put the stocker valves,springs etc into the 113 head after freshening up

and the "bare" head would be refitted with the BP valvetrain and possibly ss valves

any comments on the GO1 heads for street use?


sorry guys for too many questions LOL

any comments on the previous question?   ;D

imexcited and ready to order, but got a little worried with Udo's inputs so.. i wana be sure hehehe


cheers y'all!!

Stay away from the GO1´s. They are not woth it.

I think you misunderstood Udo a bit. The stock 040 can handle dual springs, no problem. You just need to be a little carefull not to take too much trust out in the intake port for the guide..
T

Thanks Torben..

Udo

thanks torben.. in part of me and Udo..

i do get what Udo meant, however , i have a 113 casting head...

"not to take too much trust out in the intake port for the guide.."

what did you mean by that?

if you mean, "watch out" when porting certain areas in the intake ports?  (if thats so.. then im ok i think.. i can be careful)

or did you mean the outer dia. of the guide boss on the valvetrain/springs side?  does it get weak when the head is cut for duals ?

in anycase,  if the 040 factory heads are safer for duals.. vs a 113 casting head,  i will def try to find some 040s local to me..

the 113 head will just need to be used on the project 1679cc  as thats gona be a very mild rebuild with just new single springs


hope you can clarify my misunderstanding Torben,

thanks for the valuable inputs!


and i miss Jim.. LOL where's he hihihihihi

we need pics of how is it going togethrt etc:-)

will get pics for sure!  as soon as "real" parts arrive LOL

for now.. i juz have (they juz arrived) full flow pump covers haha  yup not much worth for pics for now