The Cal-look Lounge

Does anybody know what exactly is inside? What 1st gear is used? Thanks, Jan

Did you email or call Scott Sebastian.  I bet he can build you a trans for less.  Let  me know.

Luke
(559)299-4613

Usually the 3.80 stock 1st gear,it is NOT strong enough for what you want to do

cheers richie,uk

i was hoping that 3.78 1st will hold up some street driving?

The later 3,78 1st is much stronger[late single side cover IRS and gt boxes had them I believe],I wnet 11.50s with my old nitrous combo using a late VW 3.78 1st ,not after market so yes that would be better,but the early 3.80 1st is weak

cheers richie,uk

so I take it that ProStreet box use weak early 3.80 first gear?

I think the pro street boxes are reasonably safe up to about 150 hp on slicks. Above that DEFINITELY go with the later 3,78. Above 200 hp., go with Erco or Weddle main shaft.
A couple of the guys over here has "tested" the strength of the later stock mainshaft, while waiting on funds and time to build the right one. It held a 210 hp 250 Nm engine for a short season, breaking 1st in the very last race of the year if memory serves.

15 years ago I was involved in drag first hand. then we had a 1910 Type 4, producing roughly 160 hp. in a 640 kg car. The old 1st gears held a couple of weekends, maybe three. We then swopped to the late mainshaft, got another 18 hp and was safe. Then we began to mess with a 60 shot of Nos, and then it was all over. Even the late main couldnt hold it anymore. So after that we only used the shot in second through 4rth.
T

If the gearbox is advertised as a "Pro-Street", it has the weak first gear.  If it is a "Pro-Street Plus", it has the strong 9 tooth first gear.

here in the uk you can specify a 3.78 1st gear for a price of 150.00 pounds on top of the pro street price.

My pro street box has been in my old stock weight 54 for about 4 years, and has run down to mid 12's and was as slick when I removed it as it ever was.

Although I took it out because I figured it was a matter of 'when' not 'if' I killed it.

Did you use this box with slicks Jamie

No, I've only ever run radials Pas. The rear end consisted of AVO shockers w/120lb springs, stock torsion bars, 1" raised solid mounted s/a box, SAW axles and home made flop stops.

I get a kick of how a name makes a gearbox stronger,, Pro-Street, or Pro Street Plus, or SuperSand or whatever people call thier boxes,,, I call all of my trans Bob, because the name don't mean squat   

Hi

The Pro Street Trans is good for 150 HP daily Street Driving. No Racing, No Burn-Outs, No Agressive Driving and No Slicks. I know some people do but there days are # and soon will be pushing there Car home.
Pro Street Plus this is a better Trans to have fun with you get a stronger 3.78 1st, Chromoly Pinion Retainer,SAW Axles or (IRS) Super Splines and a Klink R/P. These are the basic up-grades that you would need
for more agressive driving. If you want to use Slicks I would suggest a Gusset on the Trans Case. Remember anybody can break any Trans all they have to do is want to or have a poorly set up Car that's
what breaks most Transaxles. ;D

Thanks
Mike           

are you saying that a "pro-street plus" irs box has to have type 2 or 930 cv flanges? because Ive never heard of any one running a 091 spline to a t-1 cv!,,,,,, Once again a name is just that

It takes Type 2 091 Bus Flanges. Its just a name to give it some Identity everyone use's them. Here are some that mean the same thing Pro Street, Super Street, Street Pro Etc.
What is the problem with putting a label on something. When someone ask what kind of Trans do you have you can say go to this website and check this one out it's what I have.

 :)   

There is absolutely nothing wrong with labeling something, the problem is with so many trans builders what one builder calls something is completely different than the other builder, If someone asked what is in a pro-street engine you would get ten different responses from ten different engine builders.

yeah.. but i think.. its fine right?

much like cylinderheads,   every time sum1 mentiones stages or levels.. the porter's brand/name is second to it.. without it..  a stage 2 could either be  from Tims  or sum1 else?

i think the worry is more on the costumer/buyers end.. people tend to categorize everything like its from 1 shop

we could safely call it Rancho pro street,  for sure it wont be kcr pro street hehe

Exactly

curiouis who ever used the term pro street , first,

then the rest wer juz lazy and used the same name.. for sumthing similar or different..

kiunda like  " oh yeah we have that pro street also "     creative LOL!!!

I`m pretty sure that all type 1`s after I think 1971 used a 3.78 1st gear. So would that mean that if I buy a "Pro Street" and not "Pro Street Plus" trans from someone like Rancho for say, a 72 that I would NOT get a 3.78 1st gear?

How can I stir the pot if you beat me to it? :o

The 9 tooth 3.78 first gear apeared in late 72 for the 73 model year, only in German made gearboxes.  It doesn't matter what year you tell them your car is, if you buy a "Pro-Street" gearbox, you get the early 10 tooth first.  The "-Plus" gets you the 9 tooth mainshaft

So if the core you provide them with has a 002 mainshaft(splined,superbeetle,3.78, 9-tooth) or whatever else one wants to describe it as, they remove it as you did not order a "plus" gearbox? ???

If that is what you are trying to do. You are not very good at it ::)

Yes, that's the way it works.  If you think that's totally unfair, I assure you, the opposite is usually true.  Let's say you're building up a 62 Beetle, and you want it built for speed.  You take out the WORTHLESS 62 gearbox as a core, but you want it replaced with a 72 gearbox (and all it's upgrades).
However, you can request that your core be rebuilt into your new gearbox.

And then you get charged for a core

Heres another favorite. What exactly is in a "Freeway Flyer"?

Mike, just to spell it out to me, as I have a 'Pro Street Plus' waiting to be installed. Will it stand up to Burn-outs and how about drag strip use, this is in a full weight street bug that has less than 150hp.

Thanks.

And why not?  If you send in a useless 61-63 core, they then have to go out and BUY a suitable core to build into your new gearbox.

When I build a gearbox for someone local, I find out exactly what they need, then make them go out and find a core that provides what they need. If it's a full out swing axle with a late case, they have to provide TWO cores.  Last year, one guy provided THREE cores to get what he wanted!

When i build a gearbox for a customer they usually have to supply three cores to build a good streetdriven gearbox. If they plan to do burnouts and go down the strip I always advice them to get aftermarket gears (Weddle). But if you know how to set up youre car and and preload the gearbox before take of you can race with a 3.78 first if the gearbox is mounted solid in the car. Sad to say that a lot of crashed gearboxes comes from wheelhop and pourly set up suspension. Dont think you can just get a 3.78 gearbox and run it down the dragstrip. The gearbox needs to be tighten up and with that the noiselevel goes up. Nobody thinks that a highperformance motor will run forever so why should a gearbox built for 50hp be bulletprof when you drop the clutch at 6000rpm. Its the old dilemma of having the cake and eat it too. Gearboxes for dragcars often use four gears ín the same space of three in an original gearbox so highway driving with a gearbox for racing is no picnic. I do build gearboxes for racing using only three gears and the fourth is for highwaydriving. I see a lot of people spending a fortune on their motor but when it comes to the gearbox they try to get away with some budget version. There is no free lunch so my advice is before you buy a gearbox talk to people who have tried racing with standard gearboxes. Last SCC i think 9 boxes were broken by sunday.Spend the money and cry once.

I can't count the number of times I've seen guys put over $10k into an engine.  Then they whine about facing a $2k gearbox that will take the punishment.

Sometimes it costs extra to give you what you want, and at the same time to let you keep what's in your core.  For example, let's say you have around 100hp and you're not going to the track ever.  You provide a core that has a 4.12 R&P with the stronger 9 tooth mainshaft, but you also want proper freeway gearing.  That means you need a .89 fourth gear.  In order to do that, you have to pay extra for a relatively rare 002 type .89 to fit the splined mainshaft, or pay extra to modify the mainshaft.  OR.... the trans builder just sticks in a common early 10 tooth mainshaft with an early 113 type .89 at no charge since you don't have enough hp to break it.

You may think I'm a dishonest type for suggesting the above.  If I was faced with the scenario, I would discuss it with the customer first and get an agreement.  So far this has NEVER happened to me.  Everyone wants to bring me a POS core then wants the world out of it.

Spend a day at one of the SoCal trans builders.  You will learn that what you think might be inside a gearbox isn't.  If you have a SSC core and supply it for your build because you want the 3.88 R&P, and the 9 tooth mainshaft, you might not get what you want.  That's because the vast majority of cores in Cali have been rebuilt more than once.  It is RARE for them to get a core that hasn't been opened up before.  In other words, it is very likely your SSC has a 4.12 and a 10 tooth mainshaft.

I've built a box for a very well known vw racer(magazine cover car) that ran full season with NO maintnence, when asked how much money he had in his crank alone the reply was 3k, when told a weddle r-p cost x-amount he about had a fit because the US gear was 3 times less, and still if I was to remove someones 3.78 mainshaft (because I didn't know how to use a 113 style 4'th on a 002 mainshaft, which is extremely easy)it would still be stealing from the customer,which I will not do.

Believe me, I know how to modify early 113 gears to work on a splined mainshaft.  The modifications don't happen for free.  If the customer doesn't want to pay for it, AND he's got no hp, swapping the mainshaft is the way to go. 
9 tooth mainshafts aren't that valuable.  The last time I bought a modified 9 tooth mainshaft, I was charged $7 for the core.  I really don't think it's a big deal to "steal" a $7 part.

Stealing is stealing

Ok,I have been following this for a while and as a customer there is something I dont get.

If I ask my gearbox builder to build me a new gearbox and what will it cost,then he replys  $XXX and you need to supply 2 cores,then that is what it costs,agreed?

So what he does with my cores is up to him as long as I get what I asked for,agreed? so how is it stealing when some of the parts left from my cores as usuable and he keeps them? the deal was completed as agreed so the rest is irrelervant.


cheers richie,uk

Well I see that my innocent thread went sideways.

If you give me 2 cores that have 380 first gears and want a 378, you still get charged a core, however if you supply a 378 core and want a "plus" gear box they charge additional, that is stealing, as a trans builder I always try to give my customer the best he provides a core for, example...customer wants a "pro street" gear box and supplys a late core, he will recieve a 378 first,091 mainshaft brg,long tooth slider on 3-4,5mm 3-4 fork at no added cost. The whole taking out these parts as he supplied to you is stealing plain and simple. the problem is to many customers dont know what they have and unscrupuless bussiness take advantage of that, I simply will not and don't get why others do that 

If you build a gearbox for a customer with close ratio gears, do you give him the unused stock gears in a bag along with the finished gearbox?

Yes

What for?

Just because a transmission is labeled "Pro" doesn't mean its bullet proff. Check the Bill Of Materials before ordering a transmission or start saying transmission builders are stealing. Just because you supply him with a core with 3,78 gear doesn't mean the transmission  builder have to supply you with a transmission with a 3.78 gear, unless you ordered it..... Why pay more if you supplied him with a 3,78 core??  Do you know if that core ways any good or the 3,78 was missing a teeth or have cracks??? Chances are that your core are no good, keep in mind those transmissions are 35+ years old. The transmission builder trys to do the best for you and still make a living.


/Rolf

What about the old oil? do you 'steal' that? ;D

I always offer old parts back, and always build the best combination I can with the core provided, If the customer wants something thats not provided they get charged for it, and waste oil is considerd hazerdus waste and some builders will charge to get rid of it

The reason for taking cores as part of the build is that if you dont you will run out of parts pretty quick. And believe me a lot of cores are just junk. When they supply three gearboxes I take the best parts out of theese three and make a good gearbox with the ratios agreed on. After throwing away all the worn parts I´m left with two 4.37 rp and a lot of weak unusable gearratios. The thing with cores and corecharges have been a thing with VW since the mid 60´s and the reason why we still can by modified and rebuilt parts. When mcmscott calls something that has made the vw scene live for so long stealing its just plain silly. It also makes me wonder where mcmscott gets the parts that the customer did not provide. And to quote Rolf I am trying to make a living building gearboxes which if I do is a win -win situation for me and my customers. One other thing to consider is that sometimes a customer wants his gearbox the following weekend. I wont have the time to go through his cores so I will build him a gearbox with parts on the shelf. A much appreciated service during the VW season. I have never had any complaints about cores or gearratios being kept by me. In fact most reasonable people find it comforting to know a new gearbox is only a phonecall away.

Hi MCMSCOTT

I just want to let you know that Rancho gives back all unused parts when Customers supply the Core. Its there Core and its there
parts. SO WHAT'S YOUR PROBLEM!! Don't you have something better to do :P

Mike Herbert

P.S. I don't hide behind a user Name either.   

I applaude you for your honnesty to your customers, as that is the way it should be, also my name is Scott, mcm is an abreviation I don't see how that is hiding behind a screen name , and I have no problem

So who are you accusing of Stealing! Sounds like a problem to Me.  You know who I am, So who are You?

Mike Herbert

and that's yet another lovely contribution of our overseas fellow enthusiast. an innocent question at that start of this thread that turned into a yankee cat fight. nicely done!

i believe this thread was about clarifying different gears not clarifying divergent opinions.  ::)

This thread should be locked, i already got the answer. Thanks to all who keep The Lounge the best place for VWs on the internet.

Sorry Guy's. But a statement like this is kind of harsh and not received very well.

Mike     

When you accuse someone of THEFT, you're gonna get a reaction.  There wouldn't have been a "yankee cat fight" if the accusation wasn't made in the first place.

i dont think geographic location has anything to do with what has transpired between fellow enthusiast's.

hallo,

so wich parts are used then from a stock gearbox?
if i buy a empty rancho core and build a stock gearbox over in it an add HD sidecovers and a super diff.
do i have then a good gearbox,or do i see this to simpel? :-[
and is this a waste of money and should i better buy a complete rancho?

henk!!!

wow!

somehow there is some really interesting information in this post. i hope this somehow can be saved.

the only thing i could 'add' is that it rained more then half a day on saturday at SCC this year.  :P

Let me start by appoligizing for brash statements as the "stealing is stealing" statement was made as a general statement and not pointed towawds any one or any company, my only point I was trying to make was a named gearbox from builder X will be different from builder Z, thats it, I'm sorry this informative thread got out of hand, and the whole stiring the pot comment was in joking manner Also I have been known to say things and mean something different, so I apoligize again for any missunderstanding, no problem here and no cat fight

Good questions Henk!

And that's our only excuse for such a poor number...  :-\

 ;D

hallo,

nobody,that can give me an answer to this?

henk!!!

i cannot fully answer your question henk, but if you decide to do so there are other parts to take into account:
- the stronger 9 thooth 3.78 1st gear, obviously. ;)
- differing strength between the 3.88, 4.12 and 4.37 r&p, something i didn't know. apparently 3.88 is strongest and 4.37 weakest.
- keyed or splined gears. later gears and early gears are not easily interchangeable unless you machine the later mainshaft. turned it down and insert a woodruff key.
- woodruff keys need to be hardened.
- 3rd and 4th gear should be welded to their synchros.
- then you would want a later shift fork as it's stronger.
- pref. heavy duty SAW axles.
- a gusseted case is stronger, too.
- and a latin american rhino case is strongest. rhino, that even sounds strong ;D

i can't vouch for all of these bullets points to be 100% correct, but i've been thinking the same thing as you have. i think uncle keith wrote some good points in his performance handbook under fast road and all out street. take a look if you have that book.

Add to that list:
Handpacked needlebearings, or use the earlier steelcaged bearings (they pins are wider in them).

Other than that, it is a VERY good list of things to remember when building a gearbox

Rhino case isnt stronger,its just new,the material is often softer than old german cores,I would always try to use a good old case over a rhino,just my opinion though ::)

And as for SAW axles,well I will bite my tongue on that subject :o

cheers richie,uk

I'll agree with that.  The increased webbing on the top of a Rhino case does nothing to strengthen the gearbox in a rear engine configuration.  The gearbox always splits at the bottom.  A German case with a gusset welded on will live longer.

And SAW axles are junk.

Bruce, can you enlighten me as to the pros and cons of SAW axles?  I have a pair in my car, but have yet to have formed an opinion
of them. 

If and when I do manage to break one, can you recommend a better axle?  We are talking about swing axles...right?  :D

My experience with them is limited but.... I think on a street car with radials they are not needed. If you do use them take a file or a grinder and totally smooth all the edges on the spade end down until they move freely in the end gears. This will keep them from getting chewed up on the ends.

15-20 years ago SAW axles were indestructable.
Now, breakage is common. 
SAW now equals China junk.

thanks for the comments on my list, i'll take it into account :)

now that SAW axles are junk, are stock axles equally destructible or which axles are recommendable?

let's put things in perspective richie, most of us here don't have 9 second cars :D

don`t forget the CrMo plate if you are using the old 4 bolt/plate type case
And you want to have the older raw teeth gears 3/4th and not the newer mouse teeth

One thing I am currious about:
Why remove some "pin`s" ( I have seen every second) on the synchros? Only for faster shifting or is there even an other reason?
The remaining "pin`s" are stressed that way way higher

Yes I have seen that too, why?

Volkswagen gearsets ran in "sets" of engaugement teeth(sorry my spelling is horible)when these sets wear out the gear will pop out of gear,so when rebuild time comes around you remove these sets and now they engauge in "new"sets. Some firsts are 2 sets of three and some are 3 sets of 3, most all3-4 sets are 3 of 3 then about 70-71 VW made them 5teeth in 3 sets( only in 113 style gears)These are very desirable for hand welded hubs. Most aftermarket gears (Weddle ect,) have all teeth engauging. If you look at the engaugement teeth on a stock gearset you will see the wear patterns. Hope this helps and hope I did'nt piss in anyones outmeal ;)

Don't blame China blame SAW ;D

Amen....and well stated.       You order shit.....You get shit! 

Baring a QC issue or proprietary materials/processes the Chinese can manufacture anything as well as anyone else can. We should bear that
in mind the next time we fly on a Boeing airliner....major airframe components are made....Yes!!   in China!

Two "Open" questions, if the fast guys say SAW axles are "junk" OK.  If so, then in comparison to what?

And finally....Why do the "Worlds finest transmission" builders recommend and sell them if they are "junk"? 

I'm not defending SAW products, i just don't want to shit an axle at the line if i can help it.





Sorry for the salty language  :-[ But the definition of profanity is "an empty mind trying to express itself"

What do you propose they should sell instead? What are our options?

we have the Finnish production in stock ... but that is a different price range compared to SAW

plse email me for all info at gh@csp-shop.de

hope this helps

http://www.csp-shop.de/cgi-bin/cshop2/front/shop_main.cgi?func=detail&artnr=501%20201%20111AHD

HD Axles - Made in Finland
 



Product Description:
The high-quality finnish swing aceaxles. Made from the finnish MOCN315 metal with the years of professional experience, started 1960. The axles are developed and tested in co-operation with the finnish top VW-racedrivers since 1992.

Qty Item / Partnumber Price     
   HD Axles 61-66. short shaft. short splines
501 201 111AHD
available from stock
     
   HD Axles 68-. long shafts. long splines
501 201 311HD
available from stock
       
   HD Axles 76 mm shortened. short splines
501 201 313HD
available from stock
 

I know Gunter, but those are in a separate league... and our ONLY other option?

Probably old news.  When they made the recommendation, SAW was the best.  This begs the question: is SAW now owned by EMPI?

I know my friend ... but for reasons well stated in this topic we decided to offer to the public on a regular base
that is why we started to stock them
and off course to help our Finnish customer (also member of the Lounge) market his product

are you coming to VoWo show this year ?

Yes this year I'm going! See you there?

for sure  ;D

Yes,but i was talking about people breaking them with 12 and even 13second cars,even people breaking them on the street

On some big turbo cars they had to change them every 5 or 6 passes,this equates to proberly 70 or more pases for you but they will break and it can get really messy when they do

I had some custom 300m rifle drilled axles made for my car,expensive but they will keep it out of the wall :o  so worth every penney


cheers richie,uk

you just need the right CV's to mount them and they are fine.  ;D

btw great save when the axle broke... really impressive.  ;)

So, after reading the topic (more a pissing contest) over and over again we're back to zero. I would like to have a "bulletproof" swingaxle box for my 2165 streetcar.

Thanks,
Harry

Have on custom made to your specs with a quaiffe diff :)

... and finnish axles.

That´s interesting. I just ordered a Rancho por-street ransmission at CSP

http://www.csp-shop.de/products/13618b

On their site, it´s advertised with a 3,78 1st gear!

Does that mean, that is advertised with an 3,78 first gear, but it doesn´t has it installed?

Best to ask Gunter. But if it's advertised it should be in there..

Maybee Gunter could give a statement?

maybe ask him personally, i'm not sure he (regularly) checks each and every topic on here.

So..decision time. Going to pick up my new rancho gearbox on Wednesday.

What would you choose? 4,12:1 or 3.875:1 gering? I´m set on 0,89 4th and I don´t have cash to design and set up fully individual transmission.

Type 181 weight is 900kg with fluids, 1 ton with me :-)

Engine is 2276cc, FK8 cam, 1.4 rockers, steve tims stage 2 heads (42x39), 48 DRLAs with 40 vents on lo...ong intakes, 1 5/8 exhaust, around 160RWHP I believe?

sporting 205/65R15 radials on the back.

BRAINSTORM NOW!

Thank you all!

I've made a big mistake: 4.12 R/P with 0.89 4th gear. Waaaay to long.

I do some freeway driving so I can´t have close ratio transmission :-[

if its any help

my bug is full weight with extra dyno mat etc ie heavy

ran a 13.73 with treads  a 1.97 60 ft and no lightening with a very similar engine to yours k8 1.4 42 x 39 and 8.1 compression and 48idas with 40 vents not DRLAs ie tame

rear tires are 205 75 15

box is a pro street with super beetle first 3.88 ring and pinion and a .89 4th

mph through the traps was 96.42 mph in 4th

would do 80 ish in 4th just under 4000 rpm if i remember rightly  ;)

Regards Ron

Hi again after 3 years:-)

Finally I purchased and ran Pro Street transmission in stock trim with 4.12 RP and ran it for two seasons. It runs very good in town and countryside driving I´m under impression it kills my 1/4 mile times a lot.

What ratios would you suggest for my 2276 with 86C cam, 11:1 CR , 48DRLAs, 1 3/4 CPS python. I run a full metal VW Thing on swingaxles, good rubber mounts, CSP trapese system, no problem with wheel hop whatsoever. Berg shifter, new shifter bar bushing, Dieken Copper disc and Stage 1 KEP plate. The car still weight around 2000 lbs with me. I´m ready to run ERCOs with 215/65 m+H DOTs on the rear.


I´m ready to run close ratios if it still allows me to get to races at reasonable speed (no autobahns). Please design me a gerabox of your opinion.

Thanks!

Since your gear box has held up so well why not go back to the same builder and ask their opinion ? Sam , the owner of " Rancho " and I have been friends and a customer since the early 80's and his advice has always been excellent plus he is absolutely honest .  There are alot of competent and honest builders out there but how many have built the quantity that Sam and his " companies " have , with that comes experiance of what combinations work . I will give you an example, I am building a new "Street Car " that will have 366 rwhp . I will be using my old race transmission and no it will not be perfect for the street but it is a compromise just like your car , something I can drive to town and yet race . Will I want to drive it 70 mph for an extended period of time, hahhahaahh NO , but I will drive it to local shows with my wife and to get the occaisional meal . Would this be the gearing Sam would advise me to use  , No,  he would probably laugh at me for even thinking of it. I will be using 26 ' tires and a 3.88 r/p with a 1.14 4th  . I look forward to all the responses you get with your post. Mike McCarthy
P.S. this is an old vid of the engine and transmission I will be using in my street car, the red one,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJZrEFElU24

what ratio is your current pro street gearbox with 4.12RP? stock? any other mods? super diff? LSD?

check out some of the pics posted by Paul Guard

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=1023716

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=985963

I have a 4.12 gearbox with 3.78, 2.06, 1.44 and 1.04 gears. Very happy with it and works perfect with my webcam 86c in my beetle. (2176cc 188 hp).

hi pupjoint, yes, stock trim 4.12 RP,
1st Gear: 3,78
2nd Gear: 2,06
3rd Gear: 1,26
4th Gear: 0,89

super diff with 4 spider gears.

Thank you!