The Cal-look Lounge

Hi there vw guys,

New here on the lounge. I'm eager to hear new opinions on the new engine I'm building for my '62 bug. The setup is going to be as followed:

Type: Type1
Stroke: 69 mm
Cylinder bore: 87 mm
Displacement: 1641 cc
Compression ratio.: 9.0 – 9.4
Case: AS41 original vw
Crank: original
Rods: original and of equal weight
Cilinders: Mahle forged
Zuigers: Mahle forged
Cam: Engle W120
Rockers: 1:1.1 original
Heads: 041 ported
Inlet valves: 39 mm
exhaust valves: 35 mm
Valve springs:  single gene berg
Lifters: don't know yet
Pushrods: Original
Flywheel: 5,6 kg 200 mm
Clutch disk: original 200 mm
Oilpump: original 26 mm
Oil cooling: original
Carburetors: 40mm dellortos
Ignition: 009 Bosch distributor + compufire coil

Did i miss something?

Here's what i allready did:

1. Tearing open the donor engine:

Donor engine: a 1300 AR. AS41 case

(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/84577.jpg)

Reason why this engine wasn't in service anymore:
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/84586.jpg)
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/84587.jpg)

One of the main bearing saddles. This case needs to be alignbored. The wear at the flywheel side was 0,04 mm
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/84682.jpg)

One of the rods. I'm going to reuse these since they are in good shape.
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/84687.jpg)

The crank will allso be reused. It's in good condition.
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/84691.jpg)
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/84694.jpg)

It's a dirty job but someone is got to do it.
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/84693.jpg)


Oil sump that probably will be used.
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/84914.jpg)

Nice and flat. The car is lowered a little bit but that will be undone. No clearance problems.
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/84915.jpg)

Borrowed the puller from a shop nearby.
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/85343.jpg)

-Full Flow

Took out the plug for my full flow oil connection. An oil filter will be connected to this.
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/85726.jpg)

Drilled and tapped
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/85756.jpg)
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/85757.jpg)

- Boat tailling.

Some say that it's not necessary for a small displacement engine like this but all tiny bits help don't they.

(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/85915.jpg)
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/85916.jpg)
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/85917.jpg)

Drilled a hole for the oil temprature sensor

(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/86080.jpg)
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/86081.jpg)

- First parts are in!

(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/86270.jpg)

Fits nicely
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/86450.jpg)

- Measuring needed

(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/86447.jpg)
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/86448.jpg)

The build is on a slow pase now because i'm going to move to another city. All the stuff in my workshop is packed allready.

(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/86451.jpg)

Let me know what you think about my engine! Tips and tricks are allways welcome  :)

You may want to think about counterweighting that crank. A light flywheel coupled with that 120 cam could get the revs up pretty high... and beat the tar out of your case. And the rods should be serviced (re-sized, new pin bushings, balanced). Just my .02 ;) Looks like fun so far!

At Least Linebore the Case, Polish the Crank and Rebulid the rods, full Balance, I Do That on A Stock Motor.  If you cant afford to do it right why do it at all??? with the Motor losing a piston like it did all that crap went threw everything in the motor Bearing,Oil Pump,Oil Cooler,cam and lifters All need to Be Replaced :o :o

@ Zach: A counterweighted crank would indeed give more play in the revs. With the stock crank I'll be limited to probably about 5500 rpm. The only thing holding me back of buying a new crank is the financial aspect. Being a pour student can be real pain in the ass sometimes. Here a new crank would cost me about  E 250,- I've estimated the total costs at about E 1500,- It would be a good investment but my car being a "normal" street car, i think I'm satisfied with the 5,5 K rpm.

I've checked the rods and the wear is all within acceptable limits. Redoing the rods would cost as much as a new set of lightend ones. I think these rods are going to do well  :)

@Schubee : I don't think you really read all the stuff above. Al parts are going to be replaced. Only case crank and rods will be reused. Case will be lignbored. Crank will be balanced with flywheel and pressure plate..  but whatever   ::)

Then by the time your cam really starts to come on, you'll have to shift. If you're limiting yourself to 5500rpm, use an Engle 100. It will get you there easily, and give much more torque.

My first plan was to use a W110. The W120 is going in one way or the other so i'll make it work  ;D Maybe in a crazy mood i'll just get the new crank and close my eyes while paying for it  ::) Had to do that far too many times  ;D We'll see. I'll have to make that decission before the stuff will be sent to guy that's going to blanance it and put 2 extra supports in the case. Just like this case:

(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/78983.jpg)

I ran a 1776 with a balanced stock crank, 12.5lb flywheel, engle 120cam but with stock 35x32 heads it did occasionally see 6500rpm (i did have dual springs on the valves though) and it , it made loads of torque and was very smooth a great daily driver engine which is still running today in another car! but with your combination you should definitely think about either getting dual springs on the valves or going with a 110cam otherwise your gonna start floating the valves and damaging the valve seats. oh yeah and if you can get a heavier front Pulley something like a berg achiever as it will help reduce the vibration in the crank

just a couple of things for you to think about  ;)

That for the advice. It's all more of an financial issue. Taking a counter weight crank, will give me the possibility to run higher revs. But double valve springs will be necessary then. HD rocker shaft... push rods...  light weight lifters. You see where I'm going. Those 1000 revs will make the engine much more expensive. I'd rather limit myself to 5500 rpm. If money was not an issue i wouldn't go for a 1641 cc either. Cheap, fast reliable. You can only chose two. That's what this is about i guess. I'm going for a cheap and cheerful engine on my tight budget. The engine will be build the right way but it will have it's limitations. So i hope it will be reliable. Sponsors are allways welcome offcourse! Just sent me a message!  ;D

hey,

a good W110 will do the trick and the pushrods will not hold up and like Zach said.  the cam will come in too late and you might want to make the expense of a balancing job (not cheap) to safe the case.
if so it might be good to look at a CW crank so that part is 'covered' when you will built a bigger engine. the CW crank isn't mandatory in my opinion, but it is a good investment over 5000rpms  ;)

with a w110 or w100 stock lifters can work. and it will actually be better as you want to drive your car 'like you stole it' and take off at 1500rpms and not stand both feet on the gaspedal and wait for 4000rpms and then have to shift at 5000...

the berg achiever isn't necessary with a w110 (or a w120 cam IMO) just a good one that doesn't leak is good.

Limit yourself to 5500 rpms and find out your quickly bored with your engine and want to upgrade it is much more expensive..

Take the advice from the guys here @ the Lounge there is a lot of knowlegde here..

i've got the same setup, yank it to 6k or go dual spring above. You will lose your case after 4k miles, but if rebuilding then is no issue... Works for me ;) There are a lot of guys without a balanced crank and the go also to the 7k ranges!! if balanced right the only big problem is that you wear off your case quick, but for me that is no problem.

Good luck!

It's not only RPMs what decide to go with dual springs or not. The 'rampiness' of the cam also involves a lot.

An achiever pulley, with a non-CW crank, will be a good idea to help reduces the vibrations and crank movement.
When I buy my 1835cc engine, it was fitted with a w120 and single springs. Lot's of problems and wearing on the valve train when I disassembled it.

Thanks for the replies guys! I did some more research and found this dyno test from a fellow dutch tuner.

(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/84130.jpg)

It's a 1641 cc with a W120 cam. It cleary shows what you guys have been saying. Max power is achieved at about 5700 rpm. This engine is fitted with a CW crank and double valve springs. So if i would limit myself to 5500 rpm i would indeed not use the cam to it's full potential.

So what are my options: Go for a CW crank and double valve spings. This would cost about E 330,- extra. Perforance wise it would look like the dyno run shown above. About 100 HP

Option 2: Go for a W110 cam and leave the crank standard. Single valve springs would be enough. Maybe ad 1:1,25 rockers. With a compression ratio near 9:1 would make this a nice engine too i gues. Although It wouldn't reach a 100 hp. The down side of this is that the increase of horse power from a standard 1600 engine like i have now would decrease.

So what do you guys think? I'm just brainstorming here..

@ Type1/DVK: Your avator makes me think you're Martijn but he's got a 1776 cc engine. Right?

I am  ;D 1776cc

Good luck with your choice  :P PS: you can never have to much horsepower ;) go big while you can.

I wouldn't build any motor with a non counterweighted crank. Bearings last longer, engine runs smoother.
Just because it's the same size with the same cam doesn't mean it will perform the same. There are many other variables.
Years ago I had a quick 1600 with a 110 and 1.25's. When I had my heads built the porter recommended dual springs. I did as he suggested. Bigger valves also require more spring! IMO a 110 is a BIG cam for a 1600, a 120 just seems ridiculous to me. My motor did not make power until 2700... right then you could feel the motor smooth out and pull harder. I shifted at 6200-6300. Your extra 56cc of displacement wont make much of a difference in driveability. My car was also very light with a close 3-4, so it "worked". But I was 21-22 years old then, so I'm sure if you'd put me in that car now I'd hate it! We pulled the motor and made a few changes to move the power down, then installed it in a friends stock weight, stock geared 67. It drove fine, but it was still pretty soft in the lower revs.
My opinion: get a c/w crank, rebuild the rods, use a 110, and put dual springs in it.
Don't lie to yourself and say you wont take it past 5500!! You can say that now, but when you're behind the wheel it's a different story!

Thanks for the reply zach. I totally agree that you cant compare engines exactly but it does give a good indication i think. I was wrong about the springs part of the engine shown above. It's run with single springs. It even ran with 1,25 rockers on the single valve springs! It tells a different story then yours zach. Better be safe then sorry offcourse but i'm pretty sure that single berg springs can handle it.

Have you ever had that engine on a dyno? I found another dyno read out from a 1641 with a 110 cam. It produces 90 hp but the torque and max power come in just 250 rpm earlier! I'll add the read out later because i'm on my cellphone now. This engine was ran with slightly ported mex heads and if i remember correctly 36 mm webers. Stock crank and rods. The engine above has heavily ported CB los banditos heads and 40 mm webers. Cw crank and lightened rods. 

I'll type my Message further later on ;)

Back again.

(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/61811.jpg)

This is from the 110 1641 engine. The over all performance is just a little less then the 120 engine. But seen the differences between both engines that's not a whole lot.

Again a cw crank would be nice but it's a point where i'll be saving money and give in on the fun of reving it. I really don't think that this engine will need to last long. Wear will not be my problem. I'm going to brain storm some more  :D

It made 93hp with the belt on, I can't remember at what rpm though. My daily driver (only car) went 14.87 @ 88 with that motor, but like I said, it was light and had a close 3-4.

I'm in the same situation like Corally...buying things in USA and shipping to Croatia isn't cheap, and on all goods we have to pay additional taxes to the state.
I plan to use a webcam 163 instead an W120 for an engine with the stock crank, ballance everything and limit my rpm's to 5500...that's my only option.
BTW, I'm 31 now and I drive a little slower and wiser than when I was between 20-25 years...
Engine that I plan to build will be 1776ccm or 1915ccm...
I have chance to buy a 1915 that was built from new parts with stock crank and W130 and never run for very good price...but it still needs sorting out the cam - putting something like W110 or Web163 and ballance everything...
My only dilemma is to lighten the flywheel or not in combination with equalizer pulley...

A guy on The Samba forum under nick SRP1 wrote something about that:

SRP1 wrote:
Thinking about this a little more, I recall reading somewhere that Berg used a stock crank with stock flywheel and one of their equalizer heavy pulleys with good results. They spun it up to fairly high revs too, definitely higher than 4500 - 5000rpm. Perhaps that may be the way to go ???


SRP1 wrote:
In the 1600cc off road race engines I use a stock weight flywheel with excellent results, these engines frequent 5500rpm during a race with a non counterweight crankshaft, that is per the rule book.
I set the rev limiters to 5800rpm, and I'm not seeing any accelerated or excessive wear in the bottom end. I can't say that if I use a lightened flywheel.
Perhaps some of the same findings GB had?


Now I'm in more dilemma and building bigger engine on a stock crank seems like good optionto me...any suggestions ?

@ Zach: that's a nice output. Stubborn as i am i'm going to try to make the current setup work  ;D I think it will make a fun motor. Probably parts will be swapped after one season because i'll start to get bored in the winter months  ;)

What do you guys think of 8 doweling the crank? I personally dont think it will be necessary. I don't do a whole lot of 1/4 miles and i allways use street tires.

I've still to decide witch lifters i want to use. Some say stock ones are good enough. What about Scat lube a lobes?

Never had any problems with a W120 + 1,25 Rockers and lightly shimed single springs. Those problems occured with the W125  ::)
It seems that shimming isn`t a real theme everything has to be stronger,harder...
A good balanced stock crank isn`t that bad! Never had any problems with my 1776cc (stock crank).And it saw some action on the 1/4mile (street tires) and revs up 6.5-7k.
My Crank is 4 dowell with the big Scat Screw (SW38) but a 8 dowell job isn`t such a bad idea.

Don`t go with orig. lifters if they aren`t "blued". And with those single springs you don`t want those heavy lifters...
I drove cheapy Empi lifters in the 1776cc, no probs.

a original, but lightened flywheel is never a waste off money as it will be used in your next engine again. i am not sure a equalizer will do much. light parts don't imply wear that fast, so a lightweight crank, flywheel, pulley, will make the engine rev faster, be more fun and less 'stressing' on the case. 8 dowling isn't that dumb to do.
i would use single springs on a W110 as i did as well on my 1641 and it works great, just don't go for 6k... like i did. it is hard to limit yourself when an engine starts to pull, you'll want more, so a flywheel that comes lose or a rod that swings by is a situation you can probably live without.

I had a 1600 with a counterweighted crank and an Engle 100 cam and stock rebuilt heads.  That thing would go to 6000rpm in first and second gear and step sideways on the shift to second.  When we pulled it down the valves were floating all over the place.  You are using way too big a cam.  Even the 110 will go to 7000 with stock valve size heads.  You are going to beat that thing to death with a not counterweighted crank and single springs.  Heavy duty singles will help, but won't save it.  I ran dual springs on my 1776 with an Engle 110 and ported stock valve size heads.  You may not have the money now, but you will pay that price anyway because it won't last.  I understand where you are coming from, but many of us who have been doing this for a while had to find out the hard way.  Listen to the good advice.

Good Advise Donny But some have to Experience Engine failure for them self's LOL ;D ;D  Reusing those Rods and Crank is a Big Mistake you can see Blueing on both the crank and Rods from Heat That  crank and rod set up looks like it spun a bearing or was about to also the wrist pin bushings need replaced  using the crank and rods the way they are I would give it a 500 mile life if that

Time for a little update:

(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/87939.jpg)
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/88124.jpg)
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/88126.jpg)
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/88125.jpg)

Weighting 590 grams each the rods are good to go. I still have to get a lot of parts for the short block. And the case needs to have it's machining done. The full crank assembly will be balanced. And so on

Shubee2: There is no bleuing to be seen anywhere on the crank or rods. All the rod bearings were in a good state when i took the donor engine apart. Neither do the wrist pin bushings need to be replaced, this has been checked.

Due to the credit crunch the build will take some time  ;D

Back again here in the lounge. In the mean time I've made some decisions about witch parts to use. I'll post the updated parts list:

Type: Type1
Stroke: 69 mm
Cylinder bore: 87 mm
Displacement: 1641 cc
Compression ratio.: 9.0 – 9.4
Case: AS41 original vw
Crank: original
Rods: original and of equal weight
Cylinders: Mahle forged
Zuigers: Mahle forged
Cam: Engle W120
Rockers: 1:1.1 original
Heads: Scat Pro street 40mm 35.5 mm will be ported by myself
Valve springs: Single Scat
Lifters: Scat ultra lube a lobe 74 gr 29 mm
Pushrods: Original
Flywheel: 5,6 kg 200 mm
Clutch disk: original 200 mm
Oilpump: original 26 mm
Oil cooling: original
Fram Full-flow filter
Carburetors: 40mm dellortos  32mm vents
Ignition: 009 Bosch distributor + compufire coil

The case and crank, flywheel, pressure plate, pulley are at a machine shop now. The case will have two bushes installed on the middle mainbrearing and the crank assembly is getting balanced. Will look like this:
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/78983.jpg)

When that is done the case will be align-bored.

That's about it for now  :)

are you sure you want stock pushrods and single HD springs driven by a w120 cam?
honestly do yourself a favour and invest in those parts too, your engine is only gonna be as durable as the weakest part.

other than that good luck! sounds like a cool project  ;)

No problem, been there done that..

Why not place an update:


Piston and cilinder. 88 mm x 69 makes for 1678. At first i was going to use 87(1641) cilinders. But i was able to get this forged set for cheap  ;D Teflon buttons won't be used...

(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/89962.jpg)

Fan shroud. Second hand and needed a respray. (picture after i sanded it down)

(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/89967.jpg)
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/89968.jpg)

8 dowled my stock crank.
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/90040.jpg)

the flywheel, pressure plate, crank and pulley have been balanced now.

Fitting the cam. Here you can see the extra studs on the centre main bearing that have been put in.
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/90042.jpg)

Got the wrong oilpump.
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/90044.jpg)

Changed it for the right one.
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/90418.jpg)

The case has been alignbored
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/90170.jpg)

Modified this to clear the full flow connection.
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/90046.jpg)

Next week i\ll have the crank bearings. The heads and lifters are still missing too.

It appears you are trying to use the "slip in" 88 setup... BAD IDEA... I know i will hear from some that use 1641 combo and love it... however, in my estimation, and that of thousands.. 87s are junk and 88 are worse.. we are NOT talking "machine in" 88s.. they are,perhaps the best of any setup currently available...But, while you have the case apart, build a 1678 machine in,a 1776 or 1915..... you will enjoy it SOOOOO much more. like others have said, bite the bullet now and build it right the first time, so you can build it bigger later... Otherwise .. cheaping out on a performance VW will have you crying more than driving.A stock 1500 will run for years with a broken crank, but adding RPM, spring rates, and horsepower WILL find that weak link...Expensive noises are never a joy. Good luck.

About the 88 slip in's. Do you have any experience using them? Most of those ' thousands' haven't. So you're opinion (if you have no experience with them) is totally worthless...  The people i know that use 87 or 88 slip in all love them. And they do have experience with them. A lot of people suffer from internet-intelligence. I bought my set from Ahnendorp in germany. They have been selling the 88 set for 20 years and haven't had a single complaint. Again usefull information. No shouting that they are junk just because you heard someone ells shouted it out too.

Why not build a 1915..? Why not, while i'm at it, build a 2,3 turbo? You have to draw the line somewhere..

My dad ran those in the '71 Westfalia I grew up with. Those, along with an Engle 110 and some small single barrel carbs made the thing move really well, he even got a speeding ticket in Texas on family vacation for going 80 something! Cop supposedly was stunned that a bus could go that fast! It was great until it got warm, distored the cylinders, and blew oil by the rings! :D I think he said he put in two or three sets of those slip ins over the years. In a bus, bad idea. If it's a motor that's well thought out and cools itself very well then I think you'll be fine. Thicker cylinder walls just give you more insurance if you do get it warm, keep the head temps down and you'll be fine. I've got a forged set that I'll be trying out in the GTV, soon I hope!

Not wanting to upset the water with anyone but, I've had a set of slip in 88s on one of my engines for going on 14 years without any issues. It has intermittently been used as a daily and not abused on the track but still seen a good few miles.

(in a bug by the way)

Thanks for the replies guys. I've got the shortblock together now for test fitting the crank and cam. Turns nicely. I'll measure the deckheigt tonight. Shims for the endplay have been ordered. So the shortblock is pretty much done. Still missing the heads and lifters. But it starts looking like an engine now!

Lifters???    ??? ???