The Cal-look Lounge

Okie dokie, here's my forthcoming combo:
78.4 stroke, 90.5 bore
8.5:1 compression
Engle 125 cam, 1.1 rockers
dual 45mm Dellortos
42x37 valves (steve times stage 2 heads)
1-5/8" exhaust

Any ideas on how much power, and what I can expect in the 1/8-mile with a 4.12 '70 IRS gearbox, car weight about 1700 lbs?  Stock gears, too.  Just curious of what my new engine potential may be... ;D

Do you want a full throttle rating?   :D

sounds alot like the Cal Look motor Hot VW's did in mid 1990's that made in the region of 140hp (it was 90 x 78, 125 cam FF heads)

Give it more compression!

I asked Greg Tims about recommendations on compression, either 8.5 or 9:1, and he recommended I keep it around 8.5:1 for pump gas.

I wish I still had that magazine... I think it was included in All About Performance VW Engines Part II, if I remember right, and I should still have that issue?

140hp with the belt and mufflers. It made 162hp with IDAs, stinger and no belt.

My 2017 cc, 42 x 37 044 Ultra Mag Plus CNC, Engle 120/1.25's, 7.9:1 CR,46 mm Kadrons (34 mm vents), 1 5/8" made 131 WHP on the Dynojet (probably 145 at flywheel?), 15.1 seconds in 1/4-mile at 3,300 ft elevation (maybe 14's at sea level?).

With those carbs and valves and that cam would 1:25 rockers not help the breathing?

I'm not completely firm on 1.1's, I was just told they would be easier on the valvetrain than 1.25's.  I'm around 4,800 feet elevation, any ideas on how this will impact the power output?  I'm looking forward greatly to putting this beast together... never had a stroker before. ;D

Neil, was that your '68 I saw in the Feb issue of Hot VWs (Great Canadian event coverage)?  If so, I love the car, looks great! 8-)

Almost exactly as I had in my ghia, in the full weight (heavy!) car with same gearbox ratio it ran consistent 14.8s  :)
edit-est' Hp was around 140
Only difference is I had fk8 and 1.4 rockers

Irregardless of numbers, it will be fun... can't wait! ;D

good attitude!

I'd like to make up a sticker for my rear window, in small letters, that reads, "No, it's not a damn Porsche engine!"  Lol ;D

Compression makes power, raise yours to 9.5:1 and run super, it will be fine. Im running the exact same set up except i've got 92's and ida's, it runs fine on 91 octane. Doesn't ping unless ambient temp is 105 degrees or higher

I say Twenty!!! :'(

Ryan, you rode in my 2007cc, it didn't make the #'s you're seeing here.  If yours does, you'll have fun.   ;)

Yes, that's me...I added some 94 mm Mahle slip-ins, Web 86C, 84 crank and IDA's, so now it's a 2332 cc ;)

Also, you mentioned being at 4,800 ft altitude.  I'm at 3,640 ft (and race at 3,300 ft) and I found 9.6:1 CR was just fine on pump gas with the above 2017 cc...I flycut the heads, which got me into the low 14's and was still a great street Beetle.  Good luck!

I can scan for You that article if You need it. Is it the same number with Mr. Jim Kaforsky's 12 sec 2276?

My guess for your HP: two times the half





 ;D

That's good info to know... I remember even the Bergs said in their instruction book that you can get away with more compression at higher elevation.  I figured that would be another important factor to throw in.

I was very impressed with how responsive that engine was in its form at the time... can't wait to see how the hairdryer adds to it!

I think it's gonna be fun.    ;D

hello

looking at the 2017 looks to be a good street engine.

can i get a Way Whit the 4140 forced 78 crank??

and the rodes can i just the stock or is the I-beam rods ??

what barrels and pistons do i need ??

 ts a street engine for some Fun and long distens driving (finland to SSC)
thanks for the help

I would go with a better rod than stock for sure....stock will take soem abuse, but there is better avail.  90.5 'B' stroker pistons and cylinders to match are what you need. 

Ryan, go with 9:1 or even 9.5:1, mine is 9.8:1, no problems on pump gas 91 Oct. bunch of fun.  ;)

Are you dead set on 90.5's ?
Coz I used to run a similar set up 2007 with 1,25's  good for about 130 bhp .
But..... if you go with 94's , would give you 2172 "I think" and up your compretion to 10:1 with some 1'25's and throw in a pair of 48's you got to be up around 170 bhp  8)
I run 10:1 on optimax pump gas with no problems at all with my 2165 set up  ;)

I'm definitely sticking with 90.5's... I simply have to stick with what I have, otherwise I will never get this thing built.  lol.  Same goes for 45 DRLA's, IDAs are out of the question for me, plus I've heard Dellortos have much better street driveability.  I basically have the essential components for this built at this stage, so I'm committed to it. ;D

or that odd colored car on the cover of the 2003 feb Hot Vw's issue   

90.5x78mance and FF heads with 125 cam...

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4523803#4523803

I'm a little concerned, not worried, but concerned, about potential deck challenges with this engine... I hadn't really heard anything thus far when asking for feedback on a 78.4 x 90.5 build, but what's everyone's feedback here?  There's a few on the Samba that say a 78.4 crank is a pain in the ass to set up when it comes to deck height, but I hadn't heard anything to that effect when soliciting feedback on this build earlier.  Do I have much to be concerned with?

I am running a 78 crank and had to shorten the barrels about .040 to get the deck I wanted.  No spacers and I am running lower compression than most, but I have fairly large cc heads.

Rayan, what cc's do you have in the heads? And what CR do you want to run?

Ted

Ted I haven't actually measured the chambers yet, but the ad on the Samba for Steve and Greg Tims I think said 57cc.  I will be verifying this when I have a chance, but I'm looking at running 8.5:1 compression, most likely.  Maybe 9:1 if I can get away with it (I'm at 4800 feet elevation here in Lake County, Oregon!)

I had a W125 in a 1776 and ran 8.9:1 with stock valve heads and 44 IDFs. The oil temp never went over 210F and the heads never went over 350F. I upped the heads to 40 x 35.5 044s and 48 IDAs and bumped up the CR to 9.3:1. Believe it or not, 9.3:1 ran cooler and this was at sea level.

Ok Ryan, you'll need roughly .032 deck is what ya need for 9:0.1. So maybe a .040 shim or a .030 if ya want to keep around 9:0.1. You should be good either way, but make sure on the head cc's. Of course the higher the better. :-)

Ted

I have a head CC kit, but have a quick question.  It's been a few years since I last used it, and I seem to remember having troubles with getting the air bubble out of the chamber.  Any recommendations on how to set it up and get the measurement accurately?  It seemed like nothing I did got rid of the air bubble under the disc, so I was just wondering.

Make sure the head is seating flat, but, you have to play with it, meaning, just move the head around till the bubble is by the hole, then kinda pick at it like popping a bubble. That will kinda work it out or pop out. I ran into the same problem, but I got it. Just takes some patients.

Ted

Great, I appreciate the advice!  Look forward to putting it to work. ;D

If you call having the tops of the cylinders machined down a "pain in the ass", then yes, I suppose it is.

I'd set her up with .040" deck and let the compresson settle at 8.9:1. In the future you can upgrade to 94's and let the compression rise to 9.5:1 with everything else remaining the same.

For me, the only pain in the ass about having machine work done is that it's got to be done by mail order, lol.  I don't think we have anybody locally doing much automotive machining anymore... at least no one that wants to even look at Volkswagen stuff.  I'm thinking I can probably get away with 8.9:1 cmpression given my elevation here (almost a mile high! within 400 feet, at least).

I wouldn't run a deck that tight. My limit is .040", no tighter. Even that is closing it in tight. I know of a guy that ran .040 and pistons met heads in a bad way when engine got hot. Probably whipped crank, but even still, just goes to show how fast things go wrong.
Not sure why so much fuss over shimming/trimming, etc. I run 78mm with stock VW rods, no shims, new case, stepped for 94's, came out .061"
78mm motors are simple to build, thanks to lack of carving in case, everything clears the cam on full swing and the deck situation.
8.9:1 will run with the W125, make sure you jet it to live. But no way would I run less than .040 dh.

I think I ran .050" deck on my 1776 that has semi hemi heads.  Seems to me that the Samba is kind of interesting in the attitudes and comments that are thrown around over there; not just on the performance forum, but overall.  It's a great site, and I don't envy the headaches that Ev and Jenn likely endure running it, but there's a lot of nonsensical attitudes found amongst the forums.  I'm thinking it's likely inevitable given the high amount of traffic that frequent the site.

Anyone with a lathe can take some off the cylinders. It's a very simple procedure.

Saturday i know how many Hp my 2017 have  8)

Its a 2017 with 48 Idas, 37mm vents, Scat C45 cam, Cr: 9,5  044 ultramag heads, 35,5 x 40 valves, 3 angle valvejob, D ported intakeports, 1 5/8 competition header.

cheers

The "fuss" being referred to is that on many OEM mag cases, when using an 78.4 mm crank, Mahle 94 B's and stock length rods, you will often end up with around 0.100" DH.  Your's came out to 0.061", so you were more fortunate than others.  My latest 2017 cc had 0.093" when mocked up with no shims, so I elected to switch to 5.5" rods. Others machine the cylinders down and keep the stock length rods.  It is a very common situation with 2007 cc or 2017 cc.  Mine was an OEM VW Brazilian replacement case, but I know it also happens on OEM German cases, and IIRC some Mexican ones as well.

Worst case scenario, with the 78.4 crank and stock rods, is that you get a very narrow engine.
I machine the barrels in the bottom, to avoid to loose any strength in the top end.

Yes. And with 5,5" rods and "B" pistons you only have to machine minor off of the cylinders, like 0,5 - 1 mm.- (Personally I like the shorter rod though.)
Wrt. CR. 8,5 - 1  in a set up like that is simply....... - not enough. And especially not at that elevation. Go AT LEAST 9,5 - 1 (using premium gas) There is so much torque hidden in the compression, and Streve´s heads are rather good. So the flame travel is relatively fast, which means that you do not have to yank the ignition way back, which again aids in cooler running heads. I do not know the correction factor for the elevation, (I asked about that in another thread) But I´d say about 5% loss of power. That equals what, about 0,3 loss of dynamic compression (?) which again means that 9,5 - 1  is a safe setting.

125 flywheel hp in a stock weight early to mid 60ies beetle and a 4 ,375 trans equals roughly 15,1 - 3 on the quarter.
140 flywheel hp in the same car and 4,125 R/P equals roughly 14,6 - 8
160 flywheel hp -          "                 -            "                 -  14 to 14,2, and you can dip into the 13´s with slicks.
All at sea level.
T

As an update, the engine is basically done... only have to bolt on the fan shroud, exhaust and carbs and hook up the oil lines and filter set up.  Also waiting on my engine test stand to arrive, as I will be breaking the cam in with the engine out of the car.  Getting closer! ;D

Ryan............need oil and fuel lines, or do you have that covered???  Call me if you need anything.   ;)

You got me covered on oil lines last year when I was in Eugene! ;D  I am however trying to figure out how long to cut them since the engine is going on the stand first before the car... not sure what length would be?  I think my Berg lines were about 22 or 24 inches in length on my 1776...

Just get some bulk push lock hose and fittings, use the good schtuff on the car.   ;)  OR.....  zip tie the filter housing to the stand and let it hag during break in.   :o

That's what ya sold me, par'dner! ;D  Yeah, I think I will probably just guesstimate the length... will be buying a set of Berg stainless lines once it goes into the car, so I guess length isn't crucial at this point.

Why buy Berg when I carry the same stuff at a fraction of the cost?????  :-\

I didn't know you had the stainless stuff there too?  I'll be in Eugene in a couple of weeks most likely as I have vacation time coming up the week of Feb. 21 through 25!  I'll stop by while in town... I also wanna ride in the turbo beast! ;D

Duh.............Yeah, and Yeah!!!     :P

I got it all mang!

How bout 1/8" NPT male to M10 x 1.0 ISO bubble flair female fittings for installing Line Loc?

Except that....but I can make it. 
I have one in a 90  fem. bubble flare x mp made up if you need one, I don't need it.