The Cal-look Lounge

What have all of you found as the best all around cam for street use, freeway and some bracket racing action. This is an area that could get interesting.  I know cam, carburetion, compression, motor size, heads, rod ratio and a lot of things all contribute to the whole package.

Share what you've found is a streetable, driveable combo, that had a reasonable life (providing you used a good zinc based oil) and how long you were able to run the cam before tear down and issues with lifter bores, etc. I'm curious to see if there is a common denominator or preference in cam selections. 

Rick Mortensen

If we set the the "way back machine" to 73'. With my ex DKP 2 liter, the wife could go grocery shopping, we would run a club rally
that night and turn mid 12's at the Bug -In the next day. Nothing fancy...square ports, IDA's and a Engle 130.

I always wanted to install a FK89 into a bone stock 1600.....

web cam 86b?

FK8 is the best all round cam I have used,it just seems to work well whatever you use it in :)

cheers richie,uk

I like the Engle W125 ;)

FK10 works perfect in my 2110 with IDA's! 500 km tour with some Autobahn-racing and normel street use is no problem! So my choice is the Engle FK10

Sven

i wonder, wouldnt the best "all around cam" be dependant on the displacement?


rick m.  what size u thinkin of? im curious hehe

The motor I currently have mocked up is a 2275.  It is a easy motor to set up with the 82 stroke and 94s.  I've run the K8 and heard a lot about the WEBCAMs over the years.  Cam selection is important because I don't want to overcam the motor either.  I had a mild PAUTER Cam in my last 2110 and 1.4 rockers. Would get 24mpg on the freeway, run 13.90's all day long and drove like a stocker with 48's.  I am just looking to try something different with a little more punch.

My heads are CNC's 42mm intakes and 37mm exhausts.  I like big block Chevy theory.  Make the motor big, the valves big and the cam conservative.  You get tree pulling torque, great bottom end and driveability.  I'm just looking for ideas before I finalize the assembly as I have run a lot of detuned motors for driveability but I want to get a little crazier for a Friday night cruizer motor too.

Keep the ideas flowing.

Rick M

while im a very very new guy to vw,

the chevy theory sounds , erm sound LOL   i wonder though we are blessed with companies that keeps developing

maybe a "big" cam can sweep the low end power while maintaining the top end too?

- i have no experience with the said cam, but based on "the other one" jim's sharings ,
  web110 myt be awesome on ur 2276 ,   seeing that its slightly more in dur. vs an engle w120 (sounds good too if u try this)
  and it may still be on the small side (falls into ur chevy theory aproach) 

  asuming (on my behalf) that its kinda small.. for u
  seeing a 90.5x78.4 motor with an engle w125  seem streetable real nice <-- ask Sarge hehehehe

Another vote for Web 86b here. 

I've driven two cars with it so far.  One is a 2276 with Wedgeports and big valves—totally driveable but with no shortage of excitment if needed.

I'd like to try an Engle 125 someday, too.

rick , try the fk46. Have steve hollingsworth do lifter bore bushings. ( he did mine). fk 46, 268 at .050 with 409 lift. k 8 is 266 wit .382 lift. With my berg rockers and springs (gb273 hd black coated etc?) lift was .629. Try the new cb vw650 springs. GET a serti, (certi?) valve job too. major flow improvement . (new thread?). My 2442 on the dyno, 9.5 to 1, clyde's 44x37.5, made 181hp with belt and muff. at 4500 ft alt. No o.c. factoring...over 200 hp at sea level for sure.More tuning to come as tinware and removable apron being done.(painted today?).Don't have dyno sheet in front, but low rpm #'s where great. Had a k10, wanted more.. lift etc. Mark herbert with ssb ran a fk46 in its 2332.(11.05 et) Susies herbert's 71 ghia (heavy)has a fk47 in it.(13.0). Ask mike? Looking forword to running it? Maybe try it with a 106 lobe center. fk series are know for bottom end. My baja motor is 87 x 94 with behives, 7mm valve stems, wedgeports is getting a fk44. Waiting for warmer weather to finish and dyno. bill

problem w/ that Chevy theory is that motor has 90 degree crank. VW motor fires every 180, like a flat plane V8 (think Ferrari or Cosworth). They are tuned completely differently.
I think the Web 110 is a good cam for a hot street car up to about 1900cc, or a sedate street car with big crank (82mm+).
I used the Web 110 in a big motor big valves, 48IDA motor and it went all wrong. The inverse of what I have found to work (for me). The big ports/valves (heads were done by Heads Up, so on the "right"motor they would have rocked) killed bottom end, the short(ish) overlap shut things down up top. Contrary to popular belief, you can build a motor with too narrow a powerband with too mild of a cam.
There is no "best cam", there are too many variables in gearing, car weight, cfm, chamber design, exh length, carburetion, not to mention owner/driver preference. We built a 2276 that made 213hp @ 7100rpm and 175 ft lb @ 5500 on Roger's dyno, so the "numbers" were there, but the thing was nearly impossible to drive normally on the street (my opinon was too much cam). With that said, I like my motors to have "soul" and "character" (maybe it's the Italian in me), so I like the cammy step to come in, like a proper sports motor should. I like smallish intake ports, generous valve size, and healthy overlap. I run Pauter R6E8 in my 94x78, and it does everything well. Idles smoothly, pulls cleanly and solidly from idle, then tries to rip seats off pan @ 3800-4000. I drive it under all conditions (minus dusty: no air filters), approx 1000-1500 mi per month, avg 23mpg. All with 48IDAs that have the two progression holes.
I think it's best to run 1.4-1.5 rockers and keep the lobe lift conservative, as you have most of the mass doing less work that way, esp @ high rpm. I run 1.25's to save guides and springs in my Berg heads.
86C sure runs hard too. Fastest cars around run it. I loved it in my car.
for a stock ratio rocker guy, the Engle 130 is my vote.

good stuff Jim!

thanks for the inputs, hehe

lack of experience told me to asume the web110 is big enough to be mild..  i guess not hehe


from what ur saying.. that makes perfect sense, kinda strangling the motor up top and having too little dur. for anything to work down low.. specially with big valves,  interesting

no, I believe you were correct in your thinking..... except in my experience, it was TOO mild. The big motor had a laziness to it that I hated. Stomp it down low and you'd think the short duration would have made for an motor that could tie axles in knots. Nope. And the big flowing ports/runners/valves, you'd think the thing would bang off the 7500 limiter. Nope.
Same cam in a 88 x 69 sang like a canary from 4-7000rpm. So yes, like you said, displacement (especially stroke) makes all the difference in the world.
I wrote an article for a friend's website a while back on all this. It will bore you to tears, but if you want to read it , let me know.

if its regarding , cam timing, lift, displacement (stroke and rod length)  and overall cam stuff?

yes id like to get "bored"   hehehe


interesting points once again... again lack of experience in aircooled stuff's here so bare with me

but wouldnt wat u experienced, be the cause of the big head big valve stuff , flows well  , im sure pretty good
but prolly didnt flow any special below .300" lift ?  could be that , maybe efficiency wasnt that good down low
big valve big port (soggy air speed) prolly would have sang good if lift (more than .450) and more dur. was had 

luke u said to me way back, strokes can afford longer overlap cuz they got the torque... 

possibly the motor u mentioned could have had (below 4k rpm) too small of a cam for the head and (above 4krpm) too small of a cam for any efficient breathing for the displacement it had,  kinda like choking it when singing.. axle rose? HAHAHA

get out your blanket and pillow.
http://www.peninsulaautomotive.com/articles/camshafts_6_15_09.html

saved to favorites !!

im reading it right now... bye for now guys haha



Jim its 5:27am here its a tropical hot country.. whats a blanket? LOL

I had an FK10 in my 1776 with 40x35.5 heads and 1.54:1 rockers, great for motorway driving, round town and the odd RWYB ;D

My vote - Engle 125 - running a 1776 w/dual 40's - had a single 40 on it - run good - duals made the engine realy wake up over 3000 rpm - good crusing but when droping the hammer - pulls till i shift at 5500 ( stock crank and rods). Never had a wear problem.

oops, correction . MY fk46 cam card reads 271 duration, berg rockers where 1.45.(1.54 actual) i am sure the 88 stroke helped my big trq #'s down low. still pretty snappy though with short rod. 5.6.bill

FK8 hands down, used in my 2017 cc and 2332 cc and was very surprised at how smooth it drove around town with IDA's...plus a lot of fun at the track!

Web 86C is also a nice cam in the 2332 cc, but a bit higher idle.

.

I agree with what I think Doug is saying, move lobe center 2-4 forward. Motor builds cylinder pressure faster, throttle response screams.

Jim the link u gave was a good read,  very nice refresher/reminder for most (but for me it was a nice read to ensure i wasnt getting lost)   you guys should check it out,


now to lobe center isht's  ;D

the typical engle W grinds are 107*   right?


hmmmm

.

WHILE THE SHOP TRY'S TO PULL THIER HEADS OUT!!!!

                                                                                          LOOK'S LIKE ME !!!                              



                                                                                                  DOUG...

hahaha the Ratto Cal one ,  i like that, sounds uhm radical   ;D

you are right mr Doug, engle w is i think 108,

interesting info sharing Doug , my cam guy (the one who does cams for us on inline 4 application)
 knows i have an engle w110 and engle w120 on hand, and he wants me to try his , 110 revised version
having improved ramp (not too aggresive)  tad less duration, 243 @0.050"   and in " 107 "

he says its not overly far from an w110 , but just improved on it some,  more punch


is this the same as your suggestion?

Don't tell anybody, but the VZ15 is one of my favorite cams.....

.

wow so, that means, my cam guy is correct? or should i say, close to what you're suggesting Doug?

yeah its on the mild side,  he always tells me.. worry not juz the cam (though it is important)   he says, no sense in geting a daddy cam and running every other component like it was stolen from a truck in china LOL! 


your father has touched alot of people, even today im sure still in the future

you have a big step to fill haha kidding Doug,


The other one -  the vz15 , is another one im looking to have soon, stashed in the garage, for the future what if sweep the floor stuffs     

lovin the topic btw

Ralf'

.

one funny note.. in some of the (i think all) of the tech manuals of GeneBerg

he suggest 7ish comp ,  (have to reread the book)   most say its too low, specially for todays stuff etc

i wonder,  cuz  a cam done right or big enough can have an engine run 9.2:1 static yet still have 7ish dynamic comp down low?

i dont think it was ever mentioned if the 7ish comp was static or dynamic by Gene,

very interesting tidbit though..  he has a way of making people think fo themselves and improve..

Doug, it would be funnier if you mention the first letter of the name of (as u call it)  NEWB

LOL

cheers,   

Ralf

.

lol hahaha so i guess i had a misconception  , thanks for clarifying Doug!


to keep it off topic some more  ;D

will the "vented" sump be availble for us masses?

me likey!

.

hahaha well i do hope i dont lack in common sense Doug!

yeah we wer talkin dynamics fo sho!

i can call the shop (even though i live half way across the world, asia LOL)   but its sunday.. il call monday
will you be there?  hehehe

i agree with richie,  the K8 is a great street cam with carb, but i think a K87 would be great for the street with full fuel injection (fuel and spark), with more top end.

.

10-4 , roger that  ;D

if im not mistaken, this is "the" point where efficiency has a chance or can go beyond 100VE ?  aka supercharging effect

when if,  the head and intake manifold and carb is tuned and designed well,  could overcome the pistons "push out" and overfill the chamber/cylinder more than it can actually  "suck in"  ?

very cool,  we try to push for this on our engines (4cylinder inline4 watercooled motors) but my experience in aircooled flat 4's is severely limited, hence im trying to cram as much knowledge as i can in my head LOL

nice enlightenment Doug , much apriciate it!!

.

guys pick cams because "somebody told them" it will "run good", and since, like Doug says, they have no reference to measure what "runs goods" against, they do claim "____ cam" is best.
If you make a "cam mistake", there is little masking it you can do, more than likely, you're going to have to live with it or take drastic measures. I know, because I erred on the side of stupid more than a few times, making dumb assumptions and "convincing myself" that variable "x" or Y" or "Z" will make up for my overeager brain diarreha. I can think of four cams that I never should've allowed in my engine(s).
The VZ15 has never been in my personal car, but that cam has proven itself (only once on dyno, admittedly) in more engines as far as throttle response and all around "right now" power, than most other's I've used/tried.

                        .

so true! when it comes to tests and proving data etc,   even more true when somebody has to make "sales"  LOL and do research for it...


id like to think : that im not coming in a position to "prove" anything hehe,  i actually wanna  "play" and "try" things to see what happens , same why i really wanted and will push thru with the current motor projects 1 - 88x69 mild motor , 2 - 88x74 lil less mild motor 

i wana try and climb a fence,  fall and scratch my knees , just like the old timers did back in the days , 
maybe then i will learn, which fence not to climb hahahaha

thanks Doug and Jim for the inputs...  gettin excited by the day (while waiting on shipments of parts LOL!!)

Doug,

You are cracking me up!  I knew this thread would pull out all the cammer experts.  I'm sure glad I read all the posts. I did not know that a 90 degree V8 and an opposed 4 were different!!!  ;D :o ;D

Funny when I mentioned using big block guides (big displacement, big valves and mild cam) that someone thought they had to teach me what difference there was between a 90 degree V8 and a Wasserboxer flat four. I am used to hearing from experts on all the forums. 

I have always stayed away from too much cam on a street engine. Most street driving is between stop light to stop light and on the freeway.  Going from a 1000rpms to 4,000 rpms is mild street driving.  My motors have been geared to run at about 70 mph at 3400 rpms.  Since I could careless about being the fastest guy on the block but I do want to do 500, 1000, even 2500 mile road trips, I like building big displacement with a driveable combination.  Even with 48's on top.

Loved your story about the hey day of your looker was the car that also had to get you to and from work.  These cam discussions always bring out the Friday night warrior engine combos, or the cruise to the burger joint/strip discussions.  In 1970 my weekend warrior was my driver.  It was a 92 x 74 motor with a Norris cam, Sig Erson rockers, Fortuned exhaust, 010 Distributor, stock valve ported heads and originally a Holley Bugspray.  Later it got its first pair of duals, Solex 40Plls.  I beat the tar out of it on Friday nights but still drove it as my main transportation. And yes, I did have one of those "go to the bottom of the page cam grinds" that I hated. I did not realize at the time that my Porsche mechanic friend had put a cam in my motor for drag racing.  The first time we tore down the motor, I detuned it to make it more driveable.

Keep your posts a coming. The discussion becomes more informative and more hilarious by the thread! It is interesting hearing all the opinions.

I think I am on about my 40th motor combo, for my personal street cars, since 1970. I have learned something from every one of them.  My most favorite was my 2110cc motor that was in my Teal 67 I drove on the 1997 BERG Cruise to Detroit. It was the most docile, detuned, fun motor I have ever owned. It had a PAUTER BP6HS cam with ratio rockers. It was not a killer cam but a completely driveable, fun motor that got 24mpg hwy and had no problem cruising at 70mph all day at 190 degrees. It went up the Park City Grade, just east of Salt Lake City, in 4th gear and never missed a lick doing so.

Long live the detuned street engines for every day driving. That motor had 8.3 static compression.

Rick M

very nice, looks like u got it toned out and planned,

now if i wasnt half way across the world, id beg u for a shotgun ride on that machine! hehehehhe

i think now i get ur "chevy theory"   not the mechanical aspect, and or design

but just the sheer size + tame characteristics of the whole ride? 

hope i got it correct,, im a screamingly obvious newb.. and the 88x69 motor im doing with the .430" and 243* dur@0.050" is gona be my first ever cammed vw hahaha imagine that? 

but on a sidenote,  on Honda's (gosh yes, thats where my stuff's originate, i port heads for that platform)

we have engine swaps, from a typical 1.5-1.6L single overhead cam, swap it to a dohc 1.6L or 1.8L  even a 2.0L 

the 2.0L swap, even in stock form.. is i think what ur talkin about? sorta like a tamed hauler,  purrs nicely, but will keep pulling and pulling and pulling some more, under normal street driving conditions?

gosh.. can u let me ride on ur beetle when its done?  :D haha

cheers

Ralf,

                                                                             .

Ralf,

You caught my thoughts on displacement/size.  The bigger crank and motor creates a lot of torque for all around driving.  The cam really determines where it will be most driveable.  I wish there were 4 valve heads for the AC VW.  Imagine what we could create in HP with really tame cam grinds.

SUBARU really got it right with their motors. The early ones all looked like a watercooled copy of the flat 4 VW. They just kept refining it and making it better. The good old "Continuous Improvement" philosophy.

These discussions always stir up a lot of opinions.  Now that I am nearing 60, I have a lot of ideas on what makes a fun and driveable combination. Then again, I am not interested in all out quartermile assault power. I just like fooling with street cars and having fun cruisin. 

The right cam combo is the one you want for what you are doing.

Rick M

4valve heads or not... it would be awesome if we had dual over head cams

LOL imagine having engle 120s  that u can adjust the intake camgear and exhaust camgear separately? 


the displacement/size  for a given vehicle/car  was juz sumthing thats always in my head, with regards to honda's
cuz "engine swaps" are most common there,

and at 26 , i dream of  reaching you're level, or anybody's here  at that age

(i welcome the numerous engines, cams ,rods,cranks,and beers i have to go thru)

it should be fun!!!!  hehehe

DougBerg ,    not my fault (The ratto cal one ,started it) hahaha kidding man!