The Cal-look Lounge

Okay, I'll admit that I'm now down to asking hypothetical questions because I haven't had time or work space for starting on my 2017 project, but please feel free to feed my imagination.  I'm curious as to what to expect performance wise transitioning from a mild 1776 (Engle 100 cam, 1.25 rockers, dual Kadrons, 7.8:1 semi hemi heads, yada yada yada) into a much larger beast (2017, dual 45 DRLA's, 42x37.5 valves, 8.5 or 9:1 comp, Engle 125 cam with 1.25 rockers).  I've gone for rides in stroker-equipped VWs, but never have had the pleasure to drive one for myself, so I'm just curious as to what to expect in terms of the car's behavior. It's going in a '70 Bug with (to begin with) a stock 4.12 IRS box.  Car has CB drop spindles and discs up front and stock drums out back.

Any feedback from those that have memories of your first stroker build would be great.  Thanks in advance!  ;D

YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!  :o ;D :o ;D :o ;D

I think my transistion was something like that.

^^^ pretty much it....

My first impression was DAYUM!!!

Almost exactly the spec on mine, other than I'm at 1904 with a 74mm crank and 90.5's.  I've got a slipping clutch cos it cant take the power and only a pair of 40IDFs strapped to it (45DRLAs soon though).  I cant wait til I get a chance to open it up after it's been run in and fettled a bit and is breathing a bit more freely  ;D

i've also got a slipping clutch, but 2-3strokes  (loose) on the butterfly nut at the clutchcable was enough! problem solved.

Good stuff to hear...;D  Would an engine like this be described as 'scary' fast compared to what I'm used to, or simply good and spry?  Just wondering.  I've got lots of time on my hands before I can even start working on it, so my curiosity is extreme.

I wouldn't say scary, but substantial for sure.  Keep an extra change of undies in the glove box, if ya know what I mean.   ;D

Gotcha, no meals or beverages two hours before going for a spirited drive, I'll remember that. ;D

From 1641 to 2054:

first open straightaway, stabbed it in second, car literally lunged forward, I said "holy fucking shit!!!" and let off and had to catch my breath.

The noise.  The biggest adjustment for me was the noise.  A hot VW has so much more to hear than a stocker that you feel highly conspicuous driving around.  But at the same time you want to keep hearing it.

I went from a 1776cc to a 78.4X90.5 E125 W/1.25 Auto-Craft rockers and Auto-Craft heads 40.35.5, this was back after I left Auto-Craft Machine, was in my 67', then lost the car in my divorce, another story, but talk about an adrenalin rush, from that day forward I never went backward always forward with a bigger motor or bigger cam or heads. Once it bites you that is it....an extrem rush! Bottom line! You'll love it!!   ;D

Ted

IMHO, build the biggest, most powerful engine you can afford. Then detune it (easily done  ;D) to suit your needs. It's a lot harder going the other way!
A mediocre motor will soon become "ho hum". Build it scary fast...then back it down, till you're ready (brakes, trans etc.)

I recall hearing something about "buying it once"  ;)

Still Waitin for my first experience with a beast ... :o!!!...I'm oh sooo close but not there yet.......Can't wait !..... ;D

This ;D

From driving mine around just getting used to it, there's definitely the whole iceberg principle going on, I'm using maybe a 10th of the engine driving it literally with the play in the roller pedal and there's another 9/10ths lurking hidden under the water that I've yet to see.

Matt

What kind of transmission mounts do you all recommend?  I'm thinking while the engine's out I should perhaps address this factor, as I have a few things to do that requrie no engine in place.  Just curious.  I've heard good things about the CB Performance Rhino mounts.

I run the Berg (heavy duty ones) mounts, but also use the Berg intermediate bar/mount and a Kafer bar. So it all depends on purpose. I also heard that the CB's are tough.

Ted

I have tried every mount combo available and I found the CB rhino mounts to be allright. What I didn't like about them was that there wasn't enough space on the nosecone mount to put any kind of washer behind the nuts that hold the mount to the pan. The setup I ended up sticking with is the Berg "harder than stock" rubber mounts and a Berg intermediate mount with rubber bushings. I also have a set of solid aluminum bushings made for drag racing. A good traction bar is also a must I have a CSP kafer bar as well but I'm not sure that I needed it.

When I went from a mild 1776 to a pretty healthy 2165, the thing I remember most was how different the powerband was. Off the line it didn't seem much different than my 1776 but above 4500 rpm's or so, where the small motor started to run out of breath, the stroke just kept of on pulling and pulling. It was awesome!

After drinving my 68 with a basically stock 1600 and going to my 2110 - with Ida's, K10 cam etc......After I drove it with the 2110 my face hurt from smiling so hard.   

I use the Berg heavy duty rubber mounts and intermediate mount with rubber bushings.  I need to get and install a traction bar or kafer brace as I cannot launch the car very hard without getting scary amounts of wheel hop. 

Hmm i think i went from a 1641 to a 2165 to a 2276 but honestly the 2165 was far more wild and I totaly shat myself. Took the car out on my first trip and just came back drenched in sweat...Sitting at lights trying not to just boot it was soo damm hard.

Just cant wait to get behind my very own dub soon enough

Adult diapers needed, check.  Will keep that in mind.

Something like that  ;D


Wuss  :D

 ;D ;D

A post i wrote minutes after my first driving experience in my mota.........

"Huge grin on my face, that first run out was just an amazing experience. Adrenalin, nerves, fits of laughter all at once"
"it was like sensory overload"

... Sorry, I will be more descriptive and less explicit, this was 1988-90
In 2 years I went from 1641 stock cam, stock heads, 32/36 Weber 2bbl to 1641, VZ25, 044 ported heads, dual 36DRLAs to 94 x 74, Engle 125, same 044's Weber 44's.
I went from a motor that would lose most street races to almost anything, and would labor and gasp at just the sight of a hill to a pretty visceral (compared to stock 1641), little motor that was hard-edged, nervous idle and not so much a weakling when throwing down @ stoplight grand prix. The cammed 1641 was a different animal altogether than the stocker. Where the stocker would slouch and protest when called to duty, the VZ25 motor was punchy, cammy, and pissed off, especially after 4000. Both motors ran the same exhaust back then, the S&S Rally (remember those, with 4 big megaphones?), but the sound from the cammed motor was so much more serious and business like. And now I had carbs that gurgled and growled and barked, instead of a wheezy whispering pile of crap progressive.
But then the 2054 transformed the car into something altogether different again. You could hear it the minute it fired up. More like you could feel it in your chest.... the rumpa rumpa rumpa thrumming of the idle as it warm up and spat and coughed out the merged dual quiets. The valvetrain was more pronounced in its sound too. The 44's had a crisper, harder sound as you cracked them too, not so sweet and innocent sounding as the 36DRLAs were.
I remember the first drive, never forget it. I was super gentle on the thing, just coming off closed throttle so slightly because it was the first big motor I had ever built or driven. I was afraid it was going to wad up in a big pile of broken springs, twisted rods and swiss cheesed case. After getting it out and around town, I was still careful not to get too demanding, basically out of fear of the "unknown" (shifting no higher than 2500-2700.... "wuss" is right). I took the car home, religiously let it cool, ran through valves, searched for oil leaks and called it a day. Yeah right. I went to bed later that night still on my big motor high, and no way was I going to sleep. I sat there going back and forth, knowing my asshole neighbor would hit the roof if I fired the thing up @ midnight (we'd had words before)...but common sense and good judgment prevailed and I said "screw it" and backed the car out of the garage @ about 1am, fired it up and took off into the October night. I knew Sheep would wake up if I went by his place, so I ran the car over to his dad's place. Sure enough, after I pulled up @ his place his bedroom light clicked on and I saw his scarecrow-like silhouette stand up in the window behind the shade. Soon he was outside, bleary eyed and disshoveled. "Man it sounds good" he said as he climbed into the passenger seat.  We took off down the long straight private drive that led to his ranch and I geared down from 3rd to 2nd and let the thing just roll along at 1800rpm or so, and Sheep said "well?" and I shoved the pedal down to the mat and we both were thrown back like rag dolls in a big slingshot. You asked the thing to go and it responded like it was angry with you for asking, but then that W125 cam came in and it was even more rushed and vicious, it just PULLED. We ended up driving around until sunup, all around backwards, up and down hills, through town, and no matter what we threw at it, it just roared and growled, taking whatever we gave it and chewing it up and spitting it out and asked for more.  I remember we came into a 15mph left hander on Vineyard Ave in Pleasanton, I stomped the throttle in 2nd and got the car really sideways in a scream of motor and tire protests. that was a first.

First experience on my OWN stroker was a blast!
Mid 80's, built this 78.4X94, W-130, ported 40X35.5, straight cuts, 45mm dual Dells, close ratio gearbox powered MANX!
From the moment I got it running, I drove it like I stole it!! Just got the car running, 10:00pm, raining outside, no top on the Manx but I have to drive it!
I swear I had that car pitched sideways for a quarter mile at a time that night! TOTALLY unsafe, TOTAL rush better than any drug!! The car hauled a**!! Problem is, EVERY time I drove it I was looking for a race! HA! Rayburn remembers this one!!

Anyway, NOTHING quite like a good running stroker!! I miss that car and those times but I hope to have some fun with my "new" project soon...

Good luck and DO IT!!

~DR
 

I really gotta try and find some space to work on this thing in my garage... really looking forward to building this thing! ;D   At the very least I should get my carbs cleaned and assembled, that's something I can do with a minimum of space.

I built a 2276 for my '67 in my one bedroom A-frame shack in Quincy CA one time. You just have to want it bad enough.  8)


Crank in the freezer and crank gears on top of wood stove to warm.

That's a good tip!  I'll give that a whirl.

First motor I built I heated the oily old crank gears on my Mom's kitchen stove while she was away... smoked up the house real good ;D
 

                                                       We drove the crap out of that Manx! We should have gone to jail for 20 years EVERY time we took it out. I would always volunteer to pick up lunch IF, I could take the Manx. The answer was always yes, but there always had to be a time alottment built in to whenever people wanted their food, because there was always a long way to get there and back. Usually an extra half hour or more had to be built in.

Good times, eh John?? ;D
Yep, no prob asking John to pick up lunch ;)
Sorry-- one more story (until I think of more :D)
Drove the "stroker" Manx down to the local plumbing supply house one Saturday morning... I pull out of the driveway safely in front of a Turbo Supra and this guy changes lanes to pass me (he's now on it!) I stand on it, grab second gear exactly as I cross the railroad tracks (these tracks are known to be rough) and proceeded to pull the front wheels up an easy foot or so through second gear ! Honest! I could not believe it! Neither could the Supra owner!!
Ha!
So... Bugnut... Stroker= more smiles per mile!

 
 

No apologies needed...;D  Keep 'em coming.  I'm seriously hoping to have this engine together before the end of the year.  About the only external parts needed  for the engine itself are a sump and muffler, though I do have a baffled stinger in the garage.  Still need to have my cylinders honed and the rotating mass balanced; for that I still need a new pressure plate, figured I'd go with a KEP Stage I, unless someone suggests otherwise.

I figure I'll be going to Eugene (my old hometown) Oregon this summer on vacation for a week so I can likely get my parts honed and balanced while I'm up there. 

thanks boys now i don't want a stroker  ;D

my friends old turbo bug

yes  me giggling in the back seat

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Haha. The first motor I built (we) heated the crank gears in a Costco size tin coffee can and later the dog came and drank it all up! She looked like a greaser from the 60's with her fur, ears, feet, and chest hair "slicked" back. There had to have been over half a quart of veggie oil in the can! ;D

As for the performance of a stroker, it should surprise you to say the least. The first time I took my 2276 out, I only ran it out to 4,000 RPM in 2nd while going through town and the car lunged forward like a puppy on a leash! The most surprising part of driving a car with 170 hp is how easily the tires break loose (even in 3rd gear at 45 mph!). You have to "watch it" and not get carried away...until you get used to the power! Enjoy!

Andy

As an update, I'm getting close to firing this thing for the first time.  Hoping to be ready for cam break in this weekend.  Fingers crossed!

Fire-up a no go.. fighting the Zalex test stand at the moment... starter is binding up and won't turn the engine over fast enough to even build oil pressure.

Bugnut,

I am going to date myself with my comments.  My first VW, a 66 sedan (purchased in 1970), had the stock 1300cc motor that I managed to kill within a couple months.  I had added an extractor exhaust and an 010 distributor which really livened it up.  Unfortunately I believe it ran lean after I fooled with the timing and I ended up twisting it too hard and sucked the exhaust valve on the #3 cylinder. Not having funds to do a complete rebuild, I let the car sit for awhile and decided to do a complete overhaul, paint, interior, motor, wheels, etc.

Later that year I traveled to Southern, California, to attend one of the early Bug-Ins.  My first dash plaque was from #5. After seeing the crazy things DDS, EMPI and others were doing with VWs, I soon had to do the same. The car sat for a few months after that first Bug-In until I ran into a guy that was a VW/Porsche mechanic at a local shop.  Mike Laurmann (obviously of German descent) turned me on to the ability to enlarge a VW.

My first stroker was nothing compared to today's standards but going from 1300cc to 1968cc (92x74) was an incredible rush.  Especially when the first motor only had a Holley Bugspray on it. I had no idea what a pair of dual carbs would soon do to the motor later on.  The only word I can use to describe the transition from 1300cc to almost a 2 liter motor is that it put a huge smile on my face the first time I got in and let out the clutch.  Motor specs were:

- 92mm NPRs
- Stock VW clearanced rods
- BUD WHITFIELD Circular counterweight 74mm stroker crank
- Norris Cam
- Dual Springs and Aluminum retainers
- Merged 1 1/2 exhaust
- Stock lifters
- 010 Bosch Distributor
- Home ported dual port heads
- Rapid Cool remote cooler and filter
- Holley Bugspray carb and plenum manifold

It was pretty fast compared to the 1300cc motor, but did not really come alive until the dual carb motor was done. Attached is a shot of the car. It was not a CAL LOOK. The cal look had not officially been defined in 1970-71.  The car had flared fiberglass fenders, hood, American 5 spoke mags, Bridgestone racing tires, HD Sway Bars and was primarily built for handling/auto-cross type driving. I'm the lean tall guy on the left. My friend, Earl Bair, is on the right. Earl had a 67 with a similar look (flared fenders, etc). 

Rick Mortensen

That's pretty good stuff, Rick, it helps keep me motivated as I'm on the cusp of having this thing running but currently on hiatus due to issues with this engine test stand.  BTW, I purchased a set of stock-valved, semi-hemi 90.5-bore heads from you probably seven or eight years ago for a 1776 I built when I still lived in Eugene, Oregon; still running great on the same engine that has since changed hands! :-)

Right now I'm in a position of having to send back the adapter ring for this stand (www.zalexindustries.com) for hopefully an exchange of one that functions... there seems to be an issue of alignment for the starter, which is dragging and not disengaging/engaging properly on the flywheel.  At this point I'm almost tempted to send the whole thing back and get my money back and just shove the engine into the car and do things the "old fashioned" way...lol.  At least in the car I have oil gauges (temp and pressure).

Bugnut, i would like to build a proper engine stand for testing etc. What are the problems with the www.zalexindustries.com stand ?

Regards,
Harry

Well, I'm thinking my issues are likely just a fluke, and I'd really prefer to wait and list all my grievances until I've had a chance to actually use the stand.  By all purposes and intents, it's a very well made unit... and I can see the engine will run on the stand without wobbling all over the place, as it's very substantial.

That being said, my current problem is that my starter will not freely operate and/or engage/disengage.  The gear tends to stick and not retract when you let go of the starter button and it's a perfectly functional starter that came out of my '70.  It worked fine for thousands of miles with my last 1776 and to even confirm the possibility of a tired starter my buddy and I took it apart, cleaned everything and reassembled it only to have the same problems.  It's laboring to turn over the engine with no plugs in and the rockers/pushrods out, and the engine turns relatively easily by hand (wrench on the pulley bolt) so I know the engine itself is not binding.

It appears to be some sort of minor alignment issue with the adapter ring that bolts to the engine case whcih then bolts the engine to the stand itself.  I'm only frustrated because I hate sending things back and being further delayed.  I bought this stand with the anticipation of using it on future engine projects, and thought it would be a convenient thing to have in the garage.  Hopefully this will prove to be the case!

How little things change, eh Rick?! :D

Screw the stand and stab it into the car --- don't need no stinking stand -- take you about 3 months to get use to the big motor and you'll be wanting a turbo to go on top of it -- then you'll be wanting a 3 liter with a turbo, with EFI, with innercooler -- of course I'm just using myself as an example

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I'm impressed  ;D I've got plenty of future desires in the back of my head, but right now this 2017 will have to do... I remember when my last mild 1776 was the biggest engine I'd had to date, can't wait to see what this one will do. :-)  Dollars and time are two things (especially the first one!) that I lack more than anything...lol.  But who doesn't?

Zach....that was funny.  I cannot seem to leave anything alone too long.  Still, I hope to make it to the CE open house, even if my decklid and rear apron are still in primer.  I have little time to do everything that needs to be completed.  Will have it in paint by Bug-In. Are you cruising over for it with Chris?

Rick M

I know bugnut68 got his engine running and is in the process of fine tuning his engine on our stand.  That is the most important part!
    
We inspect the gear backlash of every starter adapter ring using the custom fixture below on an actual engine.  An identical fixture is used during the welding process, so our success rate is very high.  Nevertheless, strange things happen and we sent Ryan a replacement starter adapter ring.


It turns out that the issues bugnut68 wrote about above were all due to a faulty battery.  If anyone has any concerns or questions about our products at www.Zalexindustries.com, I would be happy to help.
Thank You,
Tom Perazzo
Zalex Ind.
858-243-0476

All true!  I apologize for not updating this thread, Tom, I had like three therads going about my engine build, I think, and lost track!  Tom is correct, my battery was the issue... and I discovered this after buying a new starter as well.  The battery was functional when I last had it in the car and operational, but at this time the battery has been out of commission for the last year plus, and is now about eight years old.  So that was that!

The engine has since gone through cam break-in on the stand, and everything works great.  No wobbling, no rocking around or anything like that.  Great stand for working on an engine outside the car!