The Cal-look Lounge

Since I've last had my Bug on the road & track some 10 yrs ago,it seems to have become imperative that additives are required in oils for our valvetrain style. I use to run ELF 20/50 oil and had no issues.

I see lucas, Redline and others.

What are Preferred brands & experiences?? Also is there a certain percentage of Zinc & phosphorous that I should look for?


regards


Craig ???

You want over 1200 ppm. I run the Brad Penn 20/50, it has around 15-1600 ppm. Another important factor is the film strength. I've never seen anything quite like this oil's film strength. If you run this, you won't need an additive. There are a few other oils that meet our zinc phosphorous needs. Valvoline's NON street legal VR1 , Amsoil Racing oils. Be sure to avoid the SM rated oils, they are not sufficient.

I use Valvoline 4-stroke 20W50 cycle oil w/ 1 bottle STP "red" for every 4 qt

The oil I'm looking at using has the qualities listed below:

Density at 15deg C, kg/L               0.8790
Viscosity, Kinematic, cSt
                          at 40deg C        285
                          at 100deg C      29.3
Viscosity Index                             141
Viscosity, Cold Cranking @-10deg C 4.662
Zinc, Mass %                               0.176
Sulfated Ash, mass %                   0.88
Base number                               6.2


Nowhere does it mention PPM..Whatever that is? Is this above oil stats good enough? Maybe I need to investigate B/Penn & Valvoline oil here in Australia.

Craig

PPM means parts per million. The info you seek is not always readily available. You sometimes have to dig further. You might inquire with the manufacturer. What is the brand and type oil you're looking at?

Hi John


Penrite HPR 50 is the oil with the att details. They state they do NOT recommend any additives though! I've just had a look at B/Penn's info and Penrite seems to be as good in some area's.

Craig

Take a look at Torco oils - all have MPZ - I'm about to switch to Tr-1 10 X 40 - thisis a petroleum based oil, not synthetic.  Torco does ofer synthetics as well.  They also ofer a Zinc additive - magnetic friction reducer.....great product.

                                             You should be good with the Penrite in Australia, as their ratings differ from what they are calling out in the U.S. Most of the Penrite there has upwards of 1700 ppm of zinc/ phosphorous, and more in the turbo diesel variety. Contact one of their reps there, and talk to him, reps are usually pretty forthcoming with this stuff. Even in the U.S. the reps I've talked to have been pretty blunt about there own products. The Castrol rep told me that every oil, except the Syntec, was completely inadequate for flat tappet use, and he really wouldn't recomend the Syntec either. The Valvoline rep said the same for all their oils , but said the " non street legal" VR1 oil was more than adequate.

Any opinions on Mobil 1 Racing 0-50w ?   

(Please check their website first)  :)

It's not an over the counter SM oil, thank God. It should work well, depending on film strength. I'd like to see test data on it. I'm also assuming it's a low detergent oil, which would be another plus.

I like what I read about the high heat capability, as well as it's use in Nascar Cup series. 500 miles at 9 grand plus is good enough for me. 

John's 100% right, avoid the off the shelf "SM" oils.
up until about year and a half ago, you could buy Mobil 1 "turbo diesel" 5W40 that was not under the SM rating, yet. I bought the last of it for my turbo Subaru, when I could find it.
In the Bug I was running Valvoline 15W40 diesel oil, before it went SM too. The old SL rated was like 1500ppm ZN. Now, I've found the 20W50 cycle oil has around 1300ppm, isn't SM (it's the old SJ).
Charles Navarro has some excellent write ups on oil for air cooled older motors.

Could some explain the difference between SM & SL Ratings??

Also, what so I look for as far as film strength goes? Is there anything in oil specifications I look for?


Craig

The SL oils still had fairly normal zinc levels, while the new SM rated oils have a maximum 900 ppm of zinc. Most of the SM oils in actuality have in the neighborhood of 600 ppm. The SM's are also higher in detergent, usually labeled, extended interval, or something along those lines. High detergent is not good for our engines, as the detergent can't tell the difference between the sacrificial zinc layer on your parts, and dirt. It treats them equally, and removes them from the vital surfaces. This is why break in oils are non detergent, and racing oils get dirty quickly. Racing oils have low detergency, and have to be changed out sooner. Film strength is more of a research project of looking through test data, or just experiencing the different oils. If you ever try to brake clean a part full of Brad Penn, you'll see what I mean. It's really hard to get the oil off the part. It's the clingiest stuff I've ever encountered.

Thanks John. Wonderful info there!  8)


Years ago, does anyone have specs on the old oils?

John/Jim could you clear up for me which valvoline you recommend ?

http://www.valvoline.com/products/consumer-products/motor-oil/racing-motor-oil/

the site doesn't call the "non street legal" oil VR-1 at all.
 the regular VR-1 (mineral 20/50) is the SM one you guys are saying NOT to use, correct ?
can't see if the synthetic is SM or SL though.
i'm guessing it's the non street legal (synthetic as well)

judging by other posts i'm thinking you don't believe valvoline's claims of very close levels of zinc between the vr-1 and the non street legal (1%)
the FAQ says you can use additives...good if you already have some in your motor  ::)

thanks guys

                                                             The regular VR1 should NOT be used. The synthetic has or had a rating of SL that would make it OK, but I bet this is an older ad that has not been upgraded. It's approved for street, so it has probably been switched to SM. It will say on the bottle if you look at it in the store. The non street legal oils generally won't have a rating because they are not street legal and don't need to conform. The difference between the street legal and non street legal VR1 are not even close. They claim high zinc in the street legal, yet it holds an SM rating. You cannot have both. If you exceed 900 PPM, you cannot be rated at an SM. You can dick around with additives, but you can throw off the balance of things they have in the oil to make it function. It's best to have the right oil that you don't need to add anything to.

John, do you have any experience or knowledge of the Lucas Zinc oil additive? It's called 'break-in' oil ZB and is designed for flat tappet  cams. Woul be interested to know its zinc content in ppm and suitability for air cooled motors.

Hello.
The Elf 20/w50 is - supposidly - rather good. A bunch of the local vintage car owners have switched to that from Castrol.
1. Because its cheaper, and 2, because  the HTHS @ 150C. cP is lower, and the index is only 119. meaning that it flows better than the Castrol.
 I have not tested it on Aircooled VW´s, as I fell into the trap of trying Brad Penn. Shouldnt have done that ;D Now there is no way back. The engines even SOUND different (less mechanical noise)
T

thanks John. i checked a bottle of regular VR-1 one today and it said SL not SM. that's over here in the UK.

Talking to a customer up north that gets me my Canton filter stuff, about oils. He carries Redline race oil. You might find this interesting.... 2400ppm of zinc!  :o

http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=15&pcid=1

This is the only additive and oil products I use and recommend!

http://www.lubeatech.com/index.html

interesting...i wonder what mileage these oils are good for ? joe gibbs XP4 has 2800 ppm but only about 500 miles usable life !  :o

With reference to Redline specs below, is there a point where there can be too much Zinc & phospherous? Is there anything about these specs raises concerns?

I don't care if I need to spend $$$ on oil that needs to be chanced regularly if it provoids the protection and excellent lubrication to my new engine. After all, I'm spending $50-$100 per week on fuel (Shell Optimax) in my daily driver!


ABOUT RED LINE MOTOR OIL FOR RACING
 
Reformulated for improved frictional properties
Special detergents for improved lubricity and less detonation
Polyol ester base stocks provide more stability and film strength when exposed to excess fuel dilution
Each of these products has no less than 2200ppm of zinc and phosphorus for antiwear
Each race oil product is a multi-grade, offering 2-4% more power than oil of a similar viscosity - 20WT is a 5W20, 30WT is a 10W30, 40WT is a 15W40, 50WT is a 15W50
Improved protection at startup, lower oil temp, cleanliness
Remember to change these oils more frequently than regular motor oils
 
 ALSO AVAILABLE FROM OUR DEALERS
 
10504 - 50WT Race Oil (15W50) - quart
10505 - 50WT Race Oil (15W50) - gallon
10506 - 50WT Race Oil (15W50) - 5 gallon
10507 - 50WT Race Oil (15W50) - 16 gallon
10508 - 50WT Race Oil (15W50) - 55 gallon
 
 
 
 
TYPICAL PROPERTIES
 

Phosphorus, avg PPM 2500
Zinc, avg PPM 2400
Viscosity Grade N/A
SAE Viscosity Grade 15W50
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 16.8
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 116
Viscosity Index 158
CCS Viscosity, Poise, @*C 34@-15°C
Pour Point, °C -45
Pour Point, °F -49
Flash Point, °C 272
Flash Point, °F 522
NOACK Evaporation Loss,1hr @ 482°F (250°C), % 6
 
 
 

Hi Torben

I found your comments very interesting on B. Penn.

Is your oil pressure good or a little high? I've heard B.Penn 20-50 makes engines run hotter..Here in Toowoomba Australia, temperatures reach 44 dec C in summer and go as low as -3degC in winter! I've heard BPenn 20-50 referred to as tar!

Any further info and comments would be appreciated.


Craig

    I use the Lucas engine break-in oil additive with 20w50 Castrol in all my VW engines including all V12 Lincoln Zephyr.

    Thanks
    Frenchy

For what it's worth I've used Torco oils on and off for 45 years. Currently have Torco TR1 in my motor, no complaints as of yet. I'll probably
step up to one of their synthetic racing oils when the car/motor is more streetable.

http://www.torco-oil.com/index.html

Any thoughts on  "Cam Shield"?  (It's available @ CB Perf.)

phil...on the mobil 1...my experience as a line mechanic in the early 70's i was introduced to mobil 1 and after changing over to mobil 1 from conventional oils in several v8 cusomer cars they each came back one at a time to have me readjust their idle as the mobil 1  had so much less friction.  in ALL of my personal vw's however  I have been using valvoline racing oil with not one engine failure..!! the zinc i believe is quite sufficient in the valvoline racing oil for just about any vw application... but it is my 'personal preference'. Ive seen it all from the early days of VW drag racing the many different oils. when the big dogs came racing and could only manage a few races before teardown with 14:1 compression and then changing over to  the 'new blends' of oil they went another two events before teardown so the testament is there but all depends on preference and experience. assembly is also a factor/blueprinting will always ensure some added reliability especially with bearings and bearing contact surfaces. I believe also that many other factors should be considered for engine failure such as too much fuel bypassing the rings and diluting the oil/too much compression leading to detonation/improper timing/bad driving habits/etc.....  oil shmoil,pass me a cold beer..!!

Hello,

I use in my 2.6 liter typ4 engine Kendall red line oil 20W60.

ZDDP = 2000 PPM

Regards from the Netherlands,
Maurice

So when was it that they took zinc out? Or was it over a period of years

So ...It looks like we all have our own preference's for a "premium cost no object" racing oil......Perfect!
Lets keep them all in business!     Any thoughts on adding a little de-gummed Castor oil (Blendzall 501) to the fuel....
kinda of a eau de cologne for purist's.

Hello. One thing you have to keep in mind is, that super high levels of ZZDP may be/is good for dragrace and the likes engines. But is NOT NESCESSARILY the answer for street engines. Last year when I did some extensive testing on 4 different brands of oil, I also tested one brand with Zink levels around 2000 ppm. This oil has shown very good results on the dyno with very little resistance hence more power. HOWEVER, the same oil was absolutely awfull on the street at higher speeds. At 85 - 90 mph. (4300 - 4500 rpm) the oil temps rose to very unacceptable levels almost 15 degrees higher than a cheap fleet oil.  I must admit I did not test it beyond that. I simply swopped back to a known oil. But judging from what I hear from other enthusiasts with other types of vehichles there seems to be a pattern. too much ZZDP is about as bad as not enough.
T

Hello

does anybody has any info on the Motul V300 20W60 as far as the ZDDP content concerns? The agent that sells this to me claims that it has plenty of it but no idea really how much that plenty is, also is perfect as viscosity to our very hot weather, cheers

Friendly

Dimitrios

I was told the same at Motul agent. But must say 300V competition 15W50 works really nice in a street/strip motor. On the hiway temp is between 180-200F and the oil PSI at this temp with 3000-4000RPM is 50PSI so grate in my opinion.
At the moment I've got Shell Helix 15 W40 in my shiter and when oil is cold lets say up to 150-170F the presure @ 700RPM is 25PSI and @ 3000RPM is almost 50 PSI but when oil gets warmer-hotter upto 190-200F the pressure dropps dramatically upto 12,5PSI  @ 650-700RPM and 37,5 PSI @ 3000-3500RPM (100-120km/h).

I have not seen temperature increases with B. Penn. - more like the opposite.  But I also tested the 15w/40 blend. In your warm climate I would definitely run the 20w/50 blend.
T

Stumbled across this site...interesting reading  :D

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

The Valvoline 20W50 4-stroke has been keeping things alive for me....
http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,12889.msg195564.html#msg195564

   Might be something to the theory of more zinc is not always good on street.  I recently started using a LAT additive which probably brings me realistically somewhere in the neighborhood of 1200 to 1500 ppm I think, as opposed to the probably 800 to 900 I was running and I noticed a highway temp rise probably give or take almost 10 degrees.   

                                                 Jason, this is why you don't want to add additives to your oil. The full package has to work together. Just adding it can throw the balance of the oil's " recepie" off. Go with an oil that has the proper balance from the start.

  I agree with you John.  I spoke to Shawns counterpart over at LAT before doing it and he said it would be good. I just was being cheap and didn't want to fork over the big bucks for something else.  Awhile back after initially reading this thread mostly your words I also was looking into some Lucas products and talked to them as well. I had been running Mobil1 in this engine all along untill recently with no apparent issues. The Mobil1 may have even been as low as 600 to 700 ppm maybe right? Do you really think levels that low are of serious concern?

                                                     Mobil1 does have low levels, as do any SM rated oil. Those low levels are a big concern, and the reps I talked to at Castrol and Valvoline said the SM oils are totally inadequate for our use, especially for higher spring pressures that we're used to.

Are their any non SM rated oils in weights lower than 20w-50? Do you have a recommended oil if I want to run 5w-20 or 5w30?


Thanks in advance,

Jeremy

                                                             Joe Gibbs, and Brad Penn have 30 and 40 weights in straight and multi viscosity.

Just run a stock pump and straight 30w  ;)

I don't even use SM oil in my 2006 Subaru Jason. Check out motorcycle oils, they have not had to comply to the SM rating. Several off the shelf brands offer 1300ppm+ at a reasonable price. I will shoot you a pic of my cam and lifters that went 19,000 miles on "nothing fancy oil" in my '67, if you want.
I know somebody that's running Castrol 30 HD (which is not SM) and puts the miles on and has a clean cow magnet.
I tried Mobil 1 too a few years back, and lost a Web cam and all 8 lifters. Not saying it was for sure the oil, but everything else in build and parts were the same as I always do.
If you want you can send a UO (used oil) sample off for analysis. I've used Blackstone and with their help, landed on what I'm using now.

Great. I just looked at the Brad Penn website and found a dealer right near my home.

My next question is how long should I use the break in oil for? Assume I start the car for the first time with break in oil, run it for 15 minutes with the rps varying but above 2k. After this I change the oil and adjust the valves and take it for a road test. At this point am I using break in oil still? I assume so because I have read that the synthetic will lubricate so well that it will be harder to seat the rings.

Thanks again,

Jeremy

Kick to this topic :).

Found a dealer here in the Netherlands which sells Brad Penn. He has both 20W50 and straight 40. Which should I choose for my street/strip 1915? Also no problems to swap from Sunoco 20W50 to any of those oils?

Just for further information, they are Brad Penn HiPo "The Green" oils.

Years back, when everyone was saying our VW cam manufacturers were making poorer quality cams, all my V8 buddies who ran flat tappet (solid lifter) cams told me to wake up.  It was the changes in oil composition (like John Rayburn mentioned) that were the culprit.  We were running KENDALL GT (the green stuff) at the time and had absolutely no issues with all the ENGLE cam grinds we were running.  It was high in ZINC and something my V8 friends recommended I run. I have not had a cam go flat in 20 years, and the one that did go flat was my fault for floating the valves in the waterbox all the time! :-)

Like John stated,  it is an issue of running flat tappet cams and the need for 1400-1500PPM ZINC.  If you think oil composition is an issue, you should research what is done to gas you buy at the pump.  Fuels make a difference on the way your air cooled motor runs and cools as well.

This is all stuff you have to stay on top of and these forums are great when guys share everything they've learned for the benefit of others.

Rick M

Today's fuels... And Kendall is now a Conoco/Phillips Brand. Means no more zinc... I still have my "green" half filled barrel. But when it's gone i will switch over to 20W50 HiPo Brad Penn. D&S Muscle in Schiedam (NL) are our importers with reasonable pricing.

Thanks Harry, already have been in contact with them. They have both the 20W50 and SAE40 available.

Anyone who could give me an answer on why to choose 20W50 of SAE40? Both have more zinc.