The Cal-look Lounge

well...after many years gone by the wayside i have been wondering if there is still a need or interest in bringing back an affordable 5 speed to the vw market. 1)...any interest//2) what would be affordable pricing//....I have been pondering this for quite some time and have talked to some old school people with great interest/knowledge/expertise to perhaps reintroduce an affodable 5 speed for street use driving. Im not into bashing or interested in transbuilder wars as this industry is already getting too small and enough people are frustrated with the economic situation/ just a thought that perhaps can happen if there is enough interest hence this posting. without getting into politics which i hate and cannot tolerate im just interested in those that have a desire for such an item. please give me your honest input without technical backlash. i have been dedicated to this industry that has been my family for over 40 years and would like all parties interested to chime in. thank you for your time and consideration//dyno don

Knowing that an overdrive has become almost manditory in the American Classic and Hot Rod world I think a 5 speed for the VW market would be stronger than ever as we are so used to the engine kicking down in our late models. I want to do some SERIOUS cross-country VW driving in the near future and feel that a 5-speed would make it SOOOO much more inviting. Hate hearing any engine scream for long periods any more- give me a 5th gear ANY day! This coming from a person driving his '67 EVERYDAY after a 15 year hiatus of driving air-cooled German engineering. I was just going to ask tonight if the high pitched gear noise in fouth gear with the power on (only) is normal? Runs fine, but tranny just gets a little louder in 4th at speed.

yep, I'm interested.  As it stands now, I am having a engine buit that will hopefully be completed by the end of summer, than I will put a 5 speed in it next spring due to current costs.  I'd much rather do it all at once.

I too am interested if it is able to hold a drag racing (street drag)! :P

that would be a nice thing to have. If it would be for example good for some saturday night action in the town/strip (lets say 1,2,3 4 eaven  gears close ratio and 5th for geting for A point to B point in "quite") that I'm interested. In Europe lots of people use heit AC VW's as a daylie drivers and it would make live easyer (more quite :D).
Go for it Mr. Don.
cheers
Tom.

Spooky Don..

I was just thinking the other day about this very subject and I agree totally that a 5-speed box would be high on my list of 'Wants'.

The probably has always been with this suggestion that the costs involved, put it beyond what most people can afford and thus however Good or Desirable a 5-Speed might be... the idea Commercially speaking is stuck in Neutral........ (Sorry about that one! ;D)

It all comes down to cost in the end and the only way I can see this being any more than an idea, is if some brave soul does the Maths and feels he can produce a certain number of boxes on a pre-order basis and manages to cover his outlay over a small run.

On a side point, I've owned several 'GT Beetles' over the years and these came with a higher Final Ratio as standard and I found these to be fine for long distance cruising and much easier than a Standard Box.

Perhaps even a 4-Speed with a more suitable Top End would be just as welcomed as well as significantly less Development/Modification costs?  

Having said that, it depends on what 'Everybody's' individual opinion of 'Affordable' is.. ;D




 

The only advantage of a five-speed in a VW is that it allows you to run four 'short' gears and a stock fifth to allow regular freeway cruising. There is no benefit at all in going the conventional 'overdrive' route as the VW trans is already effectively overdriven in fourth gear. A Bug motor in a typical Cal Looker will struggle to pull anything much higher than a 3.88 with a 0.82 and 205/70s for any distance - and that's a hell of a lot higher overall ratio than a regular 4.37/0.89 + 155/15 overall ratio… You may also need to start thinking about speeding the fan up to keep things cool if you run too a high gear for long periods… Just my 2c… :)

Depending on cost, it's something that I'd seriously consider. The Berg 5 is great, but expensive. AFAIK the Webster from the 70's hasn't been available for a long, long time, and Bears in the UK are releasing theirs soon according to the news piece in Volksworld. The Porsche five-speed is also proven but requires a change to IRS.

I'd like to drive to the track, run 12's and drive home again, keeping up with motorway traffic at 70mph without wringing the neck of the motor.

I think it's cheaper to just build a bigger engine so you don't need close ratios  ;D

hmm that's a idea :) 2276ccm EFI Turbo engine with 25PSI boost should be enough ;)
but yes as Mr. Kith wrote, nice box with close ratios and 5th like 0,82 should be nice to drive 70MPH without putting some cheese into earholes or frying the engine.

I like having both.

I've had a Berg 5 for 10 years and i'll never go back to a 4 speed. The close gears make driving it a pleasure and matching it to a torquey engine means I can shift into 5th as low as 40mph and as high as 110mph.

I would absolutely love to have a 5 speed in my car.  I agree with Mr. Seume above - Having a 5 speed doesn't change the "overdrive" that is already in a stock 4 speed VW transaxle.  So mostly I'd really like to have a 5 speed so that I could have the first four gears closer to improve drivability in traffic as well as at the track as well as improve highway drivability with less engine noise.  This is a great subject!
 
As far as speeding the fan up if you use a lower (numerically) gear ratio in your "overdrive" gear - This may not be a good idea as it takes a certain amount of horsepower to drive the fan and push the car.  This may cause overheating of the engine. Just my $0.02

To reply the original question, yes, I´d love to have an affordable 5 speed.

Yup, has to be good for at least 200hp

Just don't revive the "Mikey" 5 speed it's a poor design......I actually ordered a Berg 2 weeks ago for my Puma......

good luck with that

Yes I would be interested.

I was thinking the same thing.  CB tried to make it work, with no success.

Me Too!

As soon as I rebuild/hot rod the motor in the GTV, that's the next step. I might drag race it a few times to see what it's got in it, but it will be primarily for street and highway use. I don't want a close 1-4 with a stock 5th, I want the gears to be spread out like a "factory" 5 speed. 4.12 r+p with a .77 5th, and 165 tires.

There may in fact, be an alternative to the modified VW gearbox + fifth gear setup coming soon. Mendeola is working on a new, small, compact gearbox that will be a six speed, design to fit around the VW torsion bar/frame horn setup. It could use either IRS or swingaxle parts.... and take the horsepower.

Very interesting dean, Keep us posted

deffenetly a needed item there DON it would deffenetly be a seller i think a 6 speed perhaps if doible for thoses nice big CI T1 ;D engines. HEY don eat any PIC UP STIK,S LATELY great to see ya that night  ;). UD . 

That would be awesome, but SPENDEOLA I'm guessing...

So, a ground-up Berg 5 speed ready to fly isn't?

No need to guess... Mendeola is some top shelf stuff.
I'm sure it would be nice but price would no doubt limit the market... my guess it would FAR exceed the price of a Berg unit.

 

If someone is going to all this trouble, maybe someone will do a sequential gearbox.  I always thought you could get a sequential 6 speed into a stock VW housing.  Maybe we will see.

I believe that is also in the works.... knowing Mike!

Not cheap, no. But it is within what I would consider a justifiable expense.

I remember Gary Peloquin telling me back in 1988 that he was working on a six-speed trans, using the original case. Wonder what ever came of that?

think he got side tracked building my 4 speed  8)

But he probably spent most of his time with LSD and water pumpers

"Yes",  I would be interested in a 5 speed for my car. I think a 5 or 6 speed gearbox would be sweet, but I'd like to have (Ideally) a cool shifter that allowed the use of a reverse lockout feature, a 5th/6th lock out feature (for racing), and also a feature to lock the car in reverse (like the factory had for convertables). And with all those features, it couldn't possibly be cheap (or at least affordable) considering the needed Research and development alone.

If someone provided a modification (of some sort) that would allow the use of a standard (existing) 4 speed shifter (Hurst, berg, flat 4, CSP, etc), offered a "kit" for "do-it-yourself" guys that came with simple instructions, all the needed parts, and (maybe?) even offered assembly services or "pre-built" units that would bolt up with ease ,there would be a large market for this sort of thing. But in reality, there is probably a reason that only the "cool guys" can have their cake and eat it too: they spent the extra money and got 5th gear!

It's really too bad that there isn't a factory built 5 or 6 speed that is relatively inexpensive, easy to get parts for, and fairly straight forward to install. The closest thing we have to work with is a Porsche transaxle. Certainly not a cheap or easy modification for most.

Andy

I vote "yes" too, with a correct price, and cool shifters.

The only thing that deters me from the 901 box is the need to use a Porsche shifter. But I love that dogleg first gear ;)

The best would be to use Berg shifters.

Or a Hurst...What about a stock shifter for that "sleeper" look?  ;) I always though that it would be cool to have a more "positive" feeling shifter with the reverse lockout and short throw that appeared stock looking. The stock unit with a "short throw kit" just doesn't cut it for me, plus it wouldn't work for a 5 speed application. Hurst would be my first choice though.

Andy

The only thing that deters me from the 901 box is.....the weak first gear. Other than that I love smooth "hot knife thru butter"
feel. Especially with  "airport gears" or the vowel gearset (AEIOU).

I would definitely be interested too, all depends on what is "affordable"... ??? My idea would be to run close 1-2-3 gears and rearrange the two other ones. If I'm not mistaken Hewland from the UK used Beetle gearboxes? What's available from them?

VERY expensive and noisy!

I´f I´m not mistaken, Hewland competition gearboxes use straight cut gears for all gears?

I'd be interested if it could be done at a reasonable cost.

The Key word that keep popping up is 'affordable'........... ;)

Well the Berg 5 is the benchmark. It's a nice unit but like all of the Berg stuff priced a little on the high side.

With today's 80mph traffic flow, every time I hit the Freeway, I'm looking for that 5th gear!

Just FYI..... The new Rhino transaxle cases now coming out of Brazil are aluminum....

Can it be done so there is no body or pan "clearancing" needed to be done ?
 ???

Wow, the rumor mill in full swing lately.....I would be in for a few...Jim

X2 Dyno.

Ted

If thats the case !!....Beer is on Me ...!!!! ;D

As I said higher up this thread, everybody has their own thoughts on what is and isn't affordable.

Some will think $2000 is cheap, while others will have needed the smelling salts at $1000.......  :D

 

I would love one! The only reason I don't have one yet is the cost involved. Someday...

I always like 5 speed for todays traffic, also good for weekend racing. I made my own 5 speed shifter and 5 speed shift knob. I still have some knob, if any body need them.

Yes for the interest.
 And yes for a slight overdrive.
BUT. Most type 1 engines would struggle with a 3,88 R/P and 0,82 5th. unless they use small dia. tyres. Then there is the heat issue. Anything over what´s equivallent to 3,88 R/P and 0,89 final gear w. stock dia tyres, and the engine begins to have heat issues at normal street driving (50 mph) , but they live great at 70 mph. Type 4´s are another game. They can handle more gearing.

But it would be a great way to exploit the highest reasonable ratio for the vehichle, without getting high rpm drops when shifting.
T

Nice products !

quite right, torben! it seems quite a few people are looking forward to a looong freeway 5th, but you can't go any longer than 4.12 and .82 or 3.88 and .89 with our 26" tractor tyres out back. the trick you'll have some fun gears for them twisty backroads or traffic light acceleration and retain that .89 5th so that the 1.04 is now 4th.
but any longer than 3.88 and 0.89 and you'll be running less than 3,000rpm for a long period time on the motorway, which would create the need for an additional fan in the engine compartment or something alike. a 356 generator pulley could be an option but then spinning up to 7,000 or so sounds less attractive if you'd imagine how many rpm your fan is making.
but yes! an affordable 5 speed which allows us to play around with the 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear ratios sounds pretty damn cool!! :)

For street use (no slick), I think 2000USD is very good price.

How about an affordable LSD to go with it?

--louis

There are complains about the Berg-5 being pricy, but remember that for the most part, you are using used parts to make the complete assembly. If a (new) aftermarket transaxle comes into the market, it would be 100% new parts - stronger yet, and surely be more expensive.

I like my Berg 5.  I find it hard to believe that a reliable 5 speed can enter the market costing much less in today's world.  Like Louis said a quality LSD would be nice for an affordable price.  I can't afford a Quaife...

You don't know the Chinese.  ;) Oh wait, you said reliable.

--louis

I'd be intererested in a box that would give me close 3rd & 4th, but I would keep my 4.37 and .89 4th as 5th. The drop from stock 2nd to stock 3rd can be murder with big cam/heads/carbs and a steep hill.

My ratios seem to work pretty well: 3.78, 2.21, 1.58, 1.21, 0.89 with a 4.12 R&P.  I love it...., but what do I know....

If you had a 5 gear, you could stretch out 5th by using a .82, then fill the gap between 2nd with gears tighter than what you have now.

Why offer a cheap one ? The Berg 5-speed works well ... Most "affordable" parts end up comming form china and have bad quality. I vote for the Berg 5..

Udo

I like Udo.  Oh, and I like his lifters too...!

Better and cheaper is good, but for now i'm happy with my Berg 5. It was one day of pain and 12 years of enjoyment.

Don, are you searching for a cheaper alternative to the Berg 5? Or is the Berg 5 not available anymore? What's the reason for this post, exactly? ??? Of course everyone wants a 5 speed...


Your engine must hate you ;)

Zach, I am not searching for a cheaper alternative to the Berg-5.  I am just commenting on what is being said.  My comments about a sequential gearbox is what I have been saying all along.  I like my Berg-5 and the ratios work well for me.  It is paid for so I am off the hook.  It wasn't cheap, but it was a lot cheaper back then.  The kit sold for $749 when I bought it in 1996.  I've had it a few years... 

Oops, that wasn't directed towards you Donny. It was to Dyno Don ;)

Okay fine...

Really Zach? Why do you think my engine hates me?

Just messing with you ;) It does seem that you like to keep the engine up in the revs. More than anyone on this board, I think you need an early 911S! 8)

Hey Dyno,
 I am with you ......The Five speed is a big asset to the vw community.....the ones that have been fortunate to
have one would agree. If it could be more affordable than the current model available that may allow more vw owners to 
drive there cars more often, which may increase the interest of others to follow.....just a thought
Some of the limiting issues with the exisiting kit or 5 speed are:
basic kit gets you started, but really does not take building a stronger tranny to the next level.
options would be a stronger gear-gear width and alloy, (I have one mainshaft for a five speed with 091 gear width, stronger?)
aftermarket ratios  cost is just like building any other box-not an issue (recently changed the ratios of my five spd in my comuter....I went from a real close ratio box
to a more wide ratio-more spread inbetween gears, and a .82 fifth which made it more streetable with a small motor, so there are many options here)
the diff is a costly addition, here one decides on an out dated super diff or goes with a new lsd or quafie design unit, costs vary from 175.00 to 2,500!
If your going with a swing unit, one must search for some decent axles or with the irs upgrade the cv flanges.
so once one decides on what they want, even if the kit price is more reasonable the trans final bill still can be 4,500!
Dyno, I am in on any new ones, I will sell off my daily driver box for a new one.
Keep me posted!!!!!!
Lunch next week!!!

So...what is the timeframe for this project? Can you release some technical info?

I think that realistically you cannot bring the costs down. Even if you went for the Renault UN1 by the time you put all the additional extras on top your still talking strong money.
When people ask for reasonable pricing that normally means cheap, you get what you pay for in life it works the same in every industry! Take into accout that metal pricing is high, currencies here in europe are weak and everybody is feeling the pinch I think it would be a hard thing to get off the ground, but I am all for more interesting and new products in the VW scene so good luck if you go for it.

this could be an option in the future?

http://www.subarugears.com/

the bears 5 speed should be available soon, this will be interesting, cable operated, one piece main shaft, own design of LSD as well, (think its similar to ZF rather than quaife), gearing designed to suit your engine spec.  I have no idea if it will be cheap, but as I have just got off the phone from one of the guys helping to get it together it should be good.  And hopefully it will be available off the shelf unlike bergs.

I am curious if the mainshaft may be similar to a Webster or Hewland? If so, gears can be stacked for custom ratios. IIRC, Porsche did this with their 904 transaxles.

BTW, if this new gearbox is scratch built, it would be awesome if the 002/091 (or larger) R/P was incorporated.

Please keep us informed as more information becomes available.

Chris Andrews - The Mailman

How about a T25/Vanagon 5-speed? I know they're side shift, not nose-cone, but is there scope for modification there? ???