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Title: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: JIMP on June 22, 2010, 09:11:04 am Hello all
my engine has just been dynoed in Johannese;s dyno, 253HP at 7500 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOR7HNWofE0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOR7HNWofE0) more or less best of everything scat billet flanged crank, carrillo rods, je pistons, Ln engineering nicasils, arp studs, ms230 heads with 5 stud rockers, titanium valves, ceramic lifters, aluminum JPM pushrods, JPM roller throttle bodies, Motec M400 on sequential mode. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtzR15OpV1w (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtzR15OpV1w) Just note the snapping response of the engine through all the rpm's -relatively with the carburated ones when they struggle to change circuits especially in the midrange- and taking into consideration that is a "heavy" engine, big 86 flanged crank and std flanged flywheel, no extra lightening I Just cant wait to get it into the car to start working with it the rest of the systems, dry sumping, efi loom etc, a big big thanks to Johannes for this "all day round" engine, maybe I'm already seing it's future, after I get used to it a light turbo wouldn't be a bad idea! Friendly Dimitrios Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: Martin on June 22, 2010, 09:46:09 am Awesome
Sounds fantastic! Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: Gunter on June 22, 2010, 12:08:41 pm hey Dimitrios, when are you coming to race it here ;) ?
Gunter Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: volkskris on June 22, 2010, 12:58:34 pm nice! is it a street&strip engine or only strip?
Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: JIMP on June 22, 2010, 15:03:41 pm Hello
Martin thanks for the kind words, actually thanks to Johannes about it Gunter, I'm struggling to make it to Norway for next year with the drag car, not this one, but anyway I'm temted to make a trip to your shop with my 1303, we'll see how I can arrange that volkskris, actually was made for my 1303 street car, well I actually see it in some black races in the nearby. And this is the absolute true, if you let aside the quality of parts -which contribute a little or not at all- to the max horsepower, the initial discussion with Johannes was to see what we can do with performance parts as they are, so the power comes directly from the MS230 heads which are absolutely of the shelf, no porting, no fancy tricks, just the heads, valve and seats and there you go! To be honest I wasn't expecting to be that powerful but hey.. it's welcome Friendly Dimitrios Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: Frallan on June 23, 2010, 01:58:27 am Congratulations Dimitrios and Johannes!
I had opportunity to see your engine few weeks ago and hearing it today was fantastic. Thanks for sharing. Frallan Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: Basti on June 23, 2010, 07:04:05 am Hi Dimitrios,
do you have a picture of the complete engine? Who did all the mapping for the Motec? Johannes? How did you solve the cylinder 1 recognition? Thanks, Sebastian Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: Jon on June 23, 2010, 07:29:58 am Congratulations Dimitrios!
That sounds awesome! Hard to imagine driving everyday with something that powerful, hang on to your driving license! Basti: Usually Johannes uses a modified distributor for that, with a "four wing" ford pickup with three wings cut of, if that makes any sense to you. Dimitrios, we would LOVE to see you at the SCC! Car or no car :) Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: mymedusa on June 23, 2010, 07:37:52 am beautiful engine and sounds amazing.
you really will have alot of fun with it. some questions: if it is for the street what about cooling? how du you cool it without fan? wishes from germany Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: JIMP on June 23, 2010, 13:44:14 pm Hello
thanks Frallan, as I said already congratulations goes to Johannes, I personally took care of the financing.. Basti, here you're with some photos of the engine (http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/9539/spracingt12387ccvalveno.jpg) (http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/8548/spracingt12387ccjpmhead.jpg) (http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/7069/spracingt12387ccdrysump.jpg) (http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/5121/spracingt12387ccrollert.jpg) about the nr1 cylinder, exactly what JHU said with the modified distributor and yes Johannes did all the mapping, if I'm not mistaking -regret tha was not present to that- every 250rpm's up to the 4000rpm and then every 500rpm's to 8000rpm's JHU please don't tease me, you know for good how much I want to come to SCC but I struggle about that every year..really hope that next year will be true.. mymedusa I'm not sure about cooling, maybe I will go with a std 30HP shroud and a fan from rs-motor from Austria, or a DTM or a Porsche?? I have all of them available but I'm not decided yet, anyway for each of those systems I'll have to fabricate the cylinder tins for the comp. eliminator intakes so anyway I'll have job to do, I would really like to hear your recomendations, the climate is very hot (three days ago was 40oC below shadow) so I need the most eficcient one Friendly Dimitrios Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: Harry/FDK on June 23, 2010, 16:38:59 pm Holy shit Dimitrios, this stuff gives motivation to pick the passion up again. (homebrewn).
Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: JIMP on June 23, 2010, 17:11:58 pm Hello Hurry
exactly as you describe it, motivation to put hands on the car, this is really my last chance, mean to get hands on the engine and then start building the rest of the car only to be possible to test the engine on it, If I don't make it this time with this kind of motivation I'm afraid I'm never will get it done, so deep breath and hands on the car.. Friendly Dimitrios Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: mymedusa on June 23, 2010, 23:13:40 pm that is really hot. my question about that is more the...why is it dynoed without fan when you need one in your way of use the engine.
so do you will dyno it again with the coolung system you need to have the real hp of it? i thing this engine with the nickies and johannes heads will be run good with whe most of the common coolings. these are some high end parts! i hope you will have alot of fun with it! wishes Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: Harry/FDK on June 24, 2010, 18:51:32 pm Hello Hurry exactly as you describe it, motivation to put hands on the car, this is really my last chance, mean to get hands on the engine and then start building the rest of the car only to be possible to test the engine on it, If I don't make it this time with this kind of motivation I'm afraid I'm never will get it done, so deep breath and hands on the car.. Friendly Dimitrios Good Luck and may the Gods Of Speed be with you, Dimitrios Harry Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: JIMP on June 26, 2010, 07:53:16 am Hello
mymedusa, well the dyno pull was made just for reference, I don't care actually how much Hp it will have in the end because as I mentioned it goes to a street car. I will adapt cooling system, air conditioning -it's really needed here to us-, I have big wheels 265mm in the rear etc, so anyway lot of power will be lost to subsystems, but I have plenty also to spare. Harry thanks for the wishes man Friendly Dimitrios Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: JS on June 26, 2010, 22:41:28 pm On all dyno sessions iīve attended the stock 1600 T1 cooling fan/alternator has made a 12-14hp difference.
And the power the cooling fan requires is the same no matter engine size etc. as far as I can tell. Awesome performance Dimitrios!!! Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: Torben Alstrup on June 27, 2010, 00:28:50 am Dimitros, if you want the best possible cooling system for it, choose a DTM shroud then. Far superior to most anything. With the Nikasils you wohnt need much extra oil cooling either not even in that kind of climate.
T Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: JIMP on June 27, 2010, 08:15:07 am Hello
well, what I know for sure is that the cooling system it will be a pain to select it and to mount it also, because I'll have to fabricate the upper cylinder tins -or fiberglass in the case of DTM- and also match the width of the engine to those systems, it's pretty match close to the stock but not exactly the same I suppose, anyway as I said already I'm open to ideas. Torben as you suggested, I'll gother more information about the dtm, I think there is a dealer located in UK, cheers Friendly Dimitrios Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: bang on June 28, 2010, 17:28:54 pm torben is a dealer here in denmark who sell the dtm cooling.. the best on the market..
www. morepower.dk Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: Udo on June 28, 2010, 20:00:13 pm I would use a Porsche fan . I have a customer with nearly the same engine , but CB heads and Deutz iron cylinders, works good. But not for high speed driving on the Autobahn :D !!!
Udo Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: JIMP on June 28, 2010, 23:02:18 pm Hello
Peter thanks for the tip, if I decide on dtm I'll give him a call Udo, I will not use it on the highway too, just short trips in the nearby..I also like the Porsche and I already have fans, but I have to use a shroud that distributes air correctly and also I'll have to modificate it for the inlets. The shrouds that seem to me to work are from Klaus and Remmelle but both for T4 so..I don't know Friendly Dimitrios Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: Torben Alstrup on June 29, 2010, 00:08:59 am Your spot on with the porsche systems. It is a challenge to make them work properly on a type 1 engine, because of the simple fact that there is not enough surface and room for the vast amount of air to get out again. If SF/CE and the like heads are used, its a different matter.
But I do see the problem with having to alter the shroud for the larger heads. I have no easy fix for that at this time. t T Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: Russell on June 29, 2010, 00:09:13 am what make of dyno did he use ?
Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: ugly duckling on June 29, 2010, 04:39:24 am definitely one SEXY looking piece. great job guys .UD
Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: JS on June 29, 2010, 07:21:01 am Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: K-Roc on June 29, 2010, 23:37:37 pm Beautifull engine and nice power, I notice in the picture of your piston top that the pistons are notched for valve clearance, is this due to a high valve lift, or is the compression high as well.
Also what oil pump are you running there? Cheers, Darren Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: JIMP on June 30, 2010, 06:35:29 am Hello, sorry for the delay
Torben thanks for the tips, If I make up my mind to use a DTM definately I'll give you a call to get one Russell as JS said it's a Bosch dyno, don't know exact model though UD thank you also for the kind words Darren as you suggested cam is in the range of FK89-87 and the compression is also high but don't recall exactly how much, I'll have to dig the data out from my notes..the oil pump if you mean the dry sump one is from Europe, I can send you details with a pm if you're interested Friendly Dimitrios Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: JS on June 30, 2010, 20:03:52 pm Russell as JS said it's a Bosch dyno, don't know exact model though Itīs the FLA 203. :) Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: Torben Alstrup on July 01, 2010, 20:16:30 pm K-roc.
Its for the high valve lift, so the valve clears the piston. T Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: JIMP on July 24, 2010, 20:48:53 pm Well after a small chat with Jake Raby on his forums, it seems that the DTM maybe isn't the best for my application
Quote Quote: I have currently completed my T1 2387efi engine and I'm seriously considering a DTM shroud for cooling -live in Greece and have very high temps- but I have some general questions OK. Quote: -the width of the engine is about the stock one as I use very low compr. height pistons, it's about 5mm overall wider than the 1,6engine, so not issues here but the heads are with comp. eliminator inlets, is there any photos or template of how can I modificate the shroud to fit? The shrouds are shipped to fit stock heads with some small mods.. To use comp eliminators requires a lot of work and a compromise of the shroud's effectiveness. Quote: -I don't have a std oilcooler and don't want one in the engine bay, can I just drop all the doghouse parts or I have also to block something eventually if air escapes from somewhere? The biggest benefit of the T1 DTMN is the TIV cooler that it uses in the stock location and how it delivers 20% more air volume to that cavity. Blocking this off will compromise the shroud greatly. It should never be blocked off. - Quote: I understood that I can't just block the hose for the oilcooler as it will provoce imbalance of the cooling, so can I just keep it and throw the air out of the engine compartment or should I expect a V2 version of the T1 DTM? There isn't a V2 version of the T1 shroud, creating one is an impossibility using the existing airfoils and internal partitioning. Quote: -as far as the heating concerns, the best option should be to get a gas heater or there is another option? Yes, gas heat. The shroud can't be modified for heater outlets without more compromise of internal air distribution. Quote: -Also are there ready available the tins for the sealing of the engine or we can get some templates to fabricate them ourselves? The T1 shroud uses all stock pulley, bellhouse and breast tins. Quote: Any info really appreciated Sure. It seems the t1 DTM may not be the best choice for you and your engine, too many mods that would take it away from it's original design would be required... Those changes could make the shroud just a huge waste of money for you Thats my opinion, because I only sell people what they NEED. So it seems that I have to stick with the std 30PS shroud, so what you use for head tins on the JPM heads? You modificate stock ones or you use something eventually ready for this application? Any photo of such head tins are welcome! Friendly Dimitrios Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: JS on July 24, 2010, 21:48:26 pm I modified stock tins for my friends engine with JPMīs heads.
Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: bang on July 24, 2010, 21:53:05 pm here is my 2779 oxy boxer with jp ms230 heads.. you have to modify stock tin..
Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: JIMP on July 25, 2010, 00:21:03 am O.K. so now we have a target and some job to do, thanks for the inputs
Friendly Dimitrios Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: JIMP on August 19, 2012, 15:52:34 pm Hello
as time passes by and no-one seems to want to get an engine, and my personal car is way far from being ready, I decided that I can see no more the engine standing on the self and put it on a 1302 car that I prepared for my shop. So point is, as it remained from the last post, the cooling system. I decided to go on the easy and efficient way of std vw shroud. I made some pics from the first cuttings and I'm amazed, everything fits like stock! so the questions to come for you experts on cooling systems -is it O.k to go with this std shroud or it is better to go with a 30HP version? is it more efficient or not? -If I retain the std I'll have to block off the doghouse somehow, is it better to close it as a box at the doghouse area or is it better to try to block it in the shroud before it start to create the cavity for the doghouse? -Do I have to use also the internal flaps of the termostat? They will have no function but do they add something to the distribution of air or they should be discarded completely? -Do I have to go with std bottom cylinder tins? Now the engine has on them the t3 tins, can I keep them or replace them with the originals? -I will be using an uprated fan from a t4 2lit -the aluminum one- should I keep the big "venturi" in the entry of the air or I should discard it? Hope to hear from you some opinions to get the thing going, thanks for looking Friendly Dimitrios (http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/619/dscn1593j.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/542/dscn1593j.jpg/) (http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/8712/dscn1592d.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/857/dscn1592d.jpg/) (http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/7153/dscn1594t.th.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/515/dscn1594t.jpg/) Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: JS on August 19, 2012, 21:57:38 pm Dimitrios, itīs great the engine will finally be driven! :)
My friends engine is not as powerful as yours, maybe 15hp less. It uses an aftermarket 30hp fan housing and all other tinware is modified stock. No flaps or thermostat. It seems to be working fine with no heat issues. But remember, this is in Norway - NOT Greece... ;) Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: neil68 on August 20, 2012, 02:35:28 am Hello Dimitrios,
I have been running a 2332 cc with JPM MS230 heads for two years now. I use an OEM German doghouse FI cooling system complete with directional flaps (with the venturi ring) from a late-70's Beetle and have been very happy with this combo. My JPM heads have been flycut (by K-Roc) to produce 50cc chambers and Mahle pistons have been notched (by Rimco). I run zero deck height plus 1.0 mm copper head gaskets for clearance. This creates 10.7:1 CR, as the valve pockets are ~3 cc. Currently I have been using a high lift JPM camshaft. Cam has 274 degrees (at 1.27 mm) and 10.8 mm lift at the lobe. With 1.4 Scat rockers the valve lift measures out to 15.2 mm (rockers actually measure out to 1.41). Also, have IDA's, 1.75" header, etc and 91 octane CLC (670 m. elevation), and 94 octane when I'm at sea level racing. I use OEM German top cylinder tins, but trimmed them for the CB manifolds and MSD spark plugs leads. I also use the two small stock rear tin pieces on the sides of the cylinders, in other words ALL OEM German Type 1 tin. This Beetle is used for street driving (but is not a long distance driver due to the close-ratio gearbox), and I also drag race almost every Friday night and it consistently runs low 13's and even a few 12.9's and one 12.8 ET. It is a stock weight Beetle, so with me driving, total weight is 920 kg. As of yet, I do not have any external oil coolers, but then living in Canada, we only get two or three months of warm weather. Here's some photographs: (http://i48.tinypic.com/2m4zxqx.jpg) (http://i50.tinypic.com/2dsvgx.jpg) Title: Re: Well..it's been dynoed Post by: ibg on August 20, 2012, 11:08:08 am I would try to use the flaps as they direct the air to the correct parts of the heads and barrels after the vanes in the shroud have done their work.
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