The Cal-look Lounge

I have decided to share the build of my 2285 type 4 engine, even though its featured at my homepage. Im doing all the machinework and assembling myself. If anybody need some work done, feel free to contact me, contact information is at my website www.gbot.dk

Here are some specs on the engine..

Type 4 case with sleeve inserts for type 1 lifters..
STD 66 crank carefully ballanced with flywheel and clutch..
Ultra light 200 mm flywheel.
Kennedy stage 2 pressure plate with superdisk.
Flywheel and crank is 5 dowelled along with BAS bolts for strenght.
Web 251 cam.
straight cut cam gears.
STD lightend rods with new bushings and ARP2000 rodbolts.

JE 105 mm lightweight pistons.
Deutz cylinders reworked to fit the application.
2.0 liter heads with new alubronze seats for 48/40 valves. Heads have been welded up in the spark plug holes and new thread cuts for the plugs 914 style. Chambers have been welded up to make 12,5:1 compression possible.
Manifolds have been shortend to reach the right puls.
Carbs will be 61 mm terminators.
Exhaust 1 7/8 header, homemade.

Im throwing up some pictures, feel free to ask questions and throw in some input.

More to follow as the progress gets along.

Regards, Jakob.

more pics

Pictures..

Pictures.

Thanks for sharing ! Looks like a nice project.

Very nice stuff going on here, keep up the good work and the photo's  ;D

Greetings mycha

awesome! :o aren't you also the builder of a 230 hp 2.4?

Holy crap Jakob ! This is going to be a very serious T4. Please keep the topic flowing. (and thanks for sharing).

Harry

that is awesome work there!!!

hope you dont mind me asking, but i got a flywheel for my type 4 motor, which had been drilled for the extra 5 dowels, but people put me off and said it weakens the end of the crank because of the holes drilled into it removing so much metal, as well as weakening the flywheel itself... so i sent it back and got an undrilled one...  :(   was i told wrong ? maybe i shouldve used it...

anyway, nice website too, i need to translate it though, looks real interesting. :)

Thanks for the kind words guys..

Got the deutz cylinders finished today, just need to have them bored now.. What a hell of a job makin them fit, goush..

I know of a guy pumpin out 300 hp on his 3.0 type 4, his flywheel is 5 dowelled as well, and he also uses the BAS bolts.

Merry christmas everybody..

Jakob

"awesome!  aren't you also the builder of a 230 hp 2.4?"

If this is the engine you're thinking of :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0IsZAJPlgg&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0IsZAJPlgg&feature=related)

Then no,-Thomas Kiel/JPM/Griebel...

Sorry for the interrupt,Spring...

Lookin' forward to see your creation come alive ! Nice work so far  8)

I thougt it was Jakob because he also had plans for a 105X66 ;)
the camshaft and valves are also the same as Jakob's, so your engine should pull well Jakob ;D

The Deutz cylinders look the business! Good thing they have more fins then the "originals".
How much cylinder wall thickness did you end up with at the head-side?

Tnx,
Walter

Yeah its a great cylinder  8)

I turned them down to 115 outside diameter at the head side, and 108 at the case side, I could had gone bigger on the case side I guess, but would like to be able to use "STD" 105 cylinders if I get problems finding deutz cylinders in the future..

Regards, Jakob

Jakob, i just checked your website. Awesome work !

The Deutz cylinders are very strong . I think they have over 120 mm on the top . We use them for Oxyboxer engines . But it is a lot of work ....

Udo

Where do you find the cylinders? Have been looking high and low for them... ???

Some used ones can be found on ebay . Here in Germany you can get them new in 95 and 100 bore . This is why i also use them on my 84x95 engine , so i have new 95 cylinders that are honed 100 % round and straight  :)
http://shop.ebay.de/?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=Deutz+Zylinder&_sacat=See-All-Categories
Udo

We used to go through the Deutz tractor dealers parts bin and take ditched ones ;D But that´s not easy anymore as even Deutz has gone watercooled now. So they are not as easy to come by now as previusly.

As said it´s a super strong cylinder, but it takes a lot of work to make them fit a type 4 or a WBX for that matter.

T

It is no problem to get them new and DEUTZ still makes new engines "aircooled" !!! And will build them for the next ??? years ! The need them for special application in some countries.
I think it is possible to get the cylinders without pistons , i try to find out next year if someones interested..

You can order cylinders only . no problem , i got my 95's 2 years ago and they are still avaliable

Udo

No shortage in Deutz cylinders...China and India will supply  ;)

Nice work Jakob, love the combo.
I've been toying with the idea of 66 x 105 using Deutz cyls as i have most of the parts, should be awesome to see how your engine performs, I'm sure it will be a blast.
Good on ya mate.

nice work.. but is i was you i would put some longer rods in. if you see on a modern bike engine you have big bore short stroke and long rods to slow the piston down so it have the time to suck fuel in.. if you use the standart rods you have a high piston speed and it has not got so lont time to suck in fuel..'

my idea for a screamer, some of the parts is on the shelf..

wbx/oxy case modyfied for type 1 lifters.

destroked dpr crank 66 mm
6,2" pauter alurods
4"cp pistons with high wrist pin.
jp ms230 heads wbx pattern
jp raptor cam
jenvey 45mm trottle bodys

Got the chambers finnished today.. Next up is fine stream lining the intake/exhaust runners.. Then new guides in and seats cut 3 angled.. Then I will be able to make a correct measurement on the chambers cc.. Shootin for around 38 cc in the chambers..

Regards, Jakob

Jakob, Any news ?

Got the intake/exhaust runners fine tuned, and put in new guides, the heads are out for having the seats cut now.. Il post more pictures as I get along with the project.

Regards, Jakob

Wow! Nice work.  You guys make me want to consider a type 4 motor in the future. Especially now that you can actually get a lot of parts for them.

Rick M

Hi Rick
No please no bus engine  ;)

Udo

Got the valveseats cut 3 angled and measured the combustionchambers, they turned out to be exactly 40cc, A little more than I expected, but I can live with that..

Have started to port the manifolds to match the 61 terminators, it takes time and my hand is still shaking ;D

Pic´s

Got the adaptor plates welded on along with wome extra material around the big end.. Also got them shaped and ported and spot faced on the surface that seals against the carburetor/head.

15 ours of work in these manifolds.

Regards, Jakob

Pictures..

Great project. I'm following this thread closely, as I'm working on fabing a set of motorcycle throttle bodies to a type-4 engine. I'm new to VWs and maching aluminum. If you don't mind me asking, what tools did you use to fab the adapters? they look like works of art. what will it take for a novice, working out of his home garage, to be able to fabricate something like that? Thanks.

I bought the adaptors along with the terminator carbs. But you need a mill to fab a set, or you can send me some worksheeds and I will make you a set.

Regards, Jakob

Got the time to make 8 shims with skirts for the valvespring to rest in. Cut off 0.5mm of the Gene berg ratainers aswell. This gives me 1,8 mm before coilbind at full lift 15,7mm. Hope this will last and not bread the springs.

BTW, have made an extra set of the shims with skirts if anybody needs.. They measure 0.9 mm thikness, 42mm OD, 17,1 ID, and they have a 3mm tall skirt to keep the spring in place at high revs..

Regards, jakob

Made myself some parts for my linkage today..

Also got the shortblock finnished.

Regards, Jakob

Hardcore work. What cooling system are you building Jakob ? T1? , DTM ?

Why don't you cut down the seat of the springs ? I do this everytime i use Type1 springs. so you have space for more travel and the springs fit into the head

Udo

I think there is only about a couple of mm from the spring seat to the induction channel, God forbit that I would cut into the channel, so decided to remove a bit of the retainer instead.

Got a little ekstra material welded on above the induction channels and faced them afterwards in the milll..

Im using an old style fanhousing with the generator precise in the middle of the engine..

Regards, Jakob

I like the ridge leading towards the valve guide! Not often you see that done to 4-bolt type 4 heads.
Nice job overall!

Type 1 springs are smaller and you can cut them down 2 mm with no breaking through

Udo

Thanks Udo.. Il keep that in mind..


A picture of the linkage im producing.

Regards..

Linkage under construction.

Very detailed work indeed. Let us know with the outcome!!

nice work.

Thanks.. Ill keep the thread going until the engine hits the dyno...

A little tinware fabrication going on.

Regards.

Jakob, can you post the pictures in 800 x 600 resolution ? Youre work is far to beautiful to post them like this !!!

Awesome work g bot ;D ;)

Got my last parts for my engine today.. 105 mm JE pistons, pauter 1.48 roller rockers.

Checked the deckheight and it was a bit too tight, 0.5 mm, so I cut off 0.5 mm of the pistons to accomplish 1 mm deck. Also had to cut 6 mm deep valvepockets int the pistons.

Another couple of days of work and im ready to put it all together  8)

Regards..

Also finnished my home made linkage..

sweet.. looks like you will need my race gearbox for the summer..

Jakob, you have PM.

engine assembled and put in my car.. Just need the header now and a few other things, and im ready for start up :)

PM back to you Harry.

Regards, Jakob

Jakob, wich fan are you going to be using...T1 ?? I have a plan for a modified T3 fanring to T1 hub in my head. Do you breathe the case on #1 and #3 to "equilize" the breathing in the case #2 and #4 "chambers" ??

Regards, Harry

PS, i like the old style Fanshroud.

Im using a welded and ballanced type 1 fan.

The only breathing on the motor I have is the 1" at the flywheel end and a 3/8" at the crank pulley end.. Have done it that way on a few motors, seems to work fine.

Regards, Jakob

Hi Jakob, any news ? Are going dry-sump system ?

Jakob, great work.
I'm following this thread with much interest.

ben

Smart stuff, whats the centre mount fan shroud like cooling wise?

Hey guys..

Project is standing still at the moment.. waiting for a header, decided to buy one instead of building it myself..

Im going drysump on the engine yes..

The center fan shroud isnt the best cooling wise, but the car is not build for left lane cruising anyway... I use the car on the strip and for breaking up a bit of detroit iron every now and then :)

The center fan shroud is compact and gives a lot of room on each side of the carburetors.

Hoping to have my header soon so I can crank that thing and hear what she has to say to me :o

By the way, I need some distributor wires with some sort of bend.. I cant fit my msd wires in cause of the huge weldings around the manifolds.. Anybody know if msd or somebody else sells wires with a bend?
Regards, Jakob

Jakob, do you mean the sparkplug caps to be bend ? I think i'll have those. Their straight but you can bend them within reason.

Hey Harry.. I allready have the msd wires, they can be slightly bend, but cant make them click firmly around the spark plugs.. Which ones do you refer to?

Regards, Jakob

Now i understand, i will see what i have and get back to you.

Harry

Hi Jakob,

I know that Mallory makes wires with straight, 45° and 90° ends. Maybe they have the right wire for your application.

Bye,

Tobi

Like this...

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MAA-947/?rtype=10

or try JEGS, # 121-3301 MSD Multi-Angle Boots and Terminals. (Sorry, i don't have those in my shop).

Jakob, any news ? (PS. PM to your private mail)

Hey Harry.. Still waiting for header and spark plug wires..

I cant see your PM by the way, have you send me one?

Regards, Jakob

I just did one again,
Regards,
Harry

PS. What happened to your website ?
PS. Let me know please ?

PM .

Please Turbo Thomas, could you get Harry and GetBackOnTrack exhaust systems done please ? Mock-up time ...

Did a break in on the engine a couple of days ago, I have a small video of it, but dont really know how to upload it in here, if anybody have an idea feel free to come with hints.

Up-load it to youtube, and then make a link ;)

Jakob, any updates on your T4 screamer ? (I received my exhaust system as well).

Regards,
Harry

UPDATE...

Have taken the engine apart cause it was leaking between cylinder and head.. Found out that the exhaust valves had hit the pistons..

Have had the valve sunken 0.8 mm into the seat to clear up some space between valve and piston and to make 2,2 mm clearence at full lift before coilbind. And have now installed titanium valves  8) Around 50 grams lighter than the steal valves I had before.

Have machined the cylinders for a ring to be put in there in an attempt to try to make it not leak, and it WORKS so far.. Have had the engine started up again today and it runs with no mis sounds, very nice..

It eats rpm out of this world so need to install a switch that makes it rev no higher than 8700 rpm, or I will blow it up..

It needs fine tuning now.. It will not fall down in rpm when I let off the gas.. think it needs more fuel..


Regards, Jakob

What material did you use for the rings on the cylinders Jakob ? Stainless ?

Regards,
Harry

Hey all.

I finally got this engine to work after a lot of experimentation.

Just came home from the dyno yesterday. The engine has been changed to 71 stroke instead of 66 as well as carbs has gone from 62 terminators to 51,5 Idas. Else from that the engine is like described and pictured in the thread.

The engine volume is now 2460cc and it pulled 254 HP and 265 NM WITHOUT fanbelt (Engine was HOT at this final last reading). And 245 HP with the belt on. As you can see from the dyno result the engine responded well when we took of the belt and made a final run (Grey line), There might be a few more ponies in it if we had put in even a bigger main jet. Jetting is 220 main and 195 air.

A video of the engine in action aswell as flow tests of the heads can be seen on my facebook site. Just type in GetBackOnTrack in the search field on facebook and you will find it.


If you need any engine work done, please feel free to contact me. I do everything from headwork to complete engines in my own machine shop.

Best regards, Jakob spring (GetBackOnTrack)

Did you do all of this at the wheel. You also said that you had to cut a ring in the liner to seal the head and the sleeve together was any matching ring cut in the head for sealing. Would you build another of these engine wit a bigger crank say a 80mm or 84mm.

Whats the piston skirt to liner clearance on this engine.

hi Bad bug.

Power is on engine, not wheels.

Noting special was done to the heads to make them seal up, just the ring in the cylinder.

Drop me a mail if you are serius about having an engine build.

Regards, Jakob

Getbackontrack i wrote you the other day and didn't get any response.

Hmm you must have enteret a wrong address..

Please try again, my mail is gbot@live.dk

Best Regards, Jakob

Looks like good power. original heads can make power, this is what we found out too . all the aftermaket heads offered for typ4 engines are not made for power... only pauter's work nice

Udo

Yes Udo i am looking at this and i am impressed.

Sent email again using same email address.

I have some 2,7 with 250 and 260 hp on the circuit track and street. all with original heads  :)

Udo

Udo do you do twin plug heads. What i would like is a 2.7ltr t4 engine that gives 200ft/lbs to 220ft/lbs of torque with 260 to 270 wheel horsepower all in at 6500 RPM.

Wondering is this possible. If i am not building a 2.7ltr engine then i will build a 2.4ltr with twin plug heads as i have 2 71mm cranks.

No,i never did 2 spark plugs. 260 wheel horse power at 6500 is impossible.

Udo

O.k. i have been playing around with a formula i saw on the web about horsepower and based on this formula if i have 210 ft/lbs of torque to the wheels at 6500 RPM i should be able to make 260 WHP. I want to use the deutz liners to achieve this and hypereutectic pistons with dual plug coil near plug technology running at 10.5 : 1 compression on 90 octane gas, car will be a daily driver.

I know some of you might say that this is a bit too lofty of an idea but i still think it can be done. Roller cams i think could make this happen.   

Hi Jacob,

 congratulations on the numbers!
 In particular, the 265nm. Quite good for an engine with that cam and 71mm. stroke ....!  8)
 And that is indeed what makes your car kick ass ..... For it does! :o Thanks for a great ride.  ;D

 See you,  magic.

It's a bit odd. but most tend to focus only on hp. But it is perhaps a relic from the time when VWs were built with smaller engines? Now it is NOT to be smart! :) :) :) Only as a question.!!! you said yourself that it's  for the street. And as Udo writes, The figures do not match... If you need 260 WHP. You will have to use a cam in the neighborhood of a fk. 98, and a agresivt Lift, and we'll talk a comp. of 11.5 or 12.5: 1.          max hp. at 8500rpm. or more ... (feel free to comment, "bad bug", Udo and Jakob!) ;)

 You MIGHT have a 271nm.(6500rpm.)   260whp. (8500rpm.) 2.7 liter engine?????....
 But you CAN have a 328nm. (4900rpm.) 245 hp. (5900rpm.) 2.7 liter engine!!!!

 ok, mine is a type 1 with JPM heads, but I'm sure jakob can create a type 4 for you coming very close ....! ;D ;D ;D
  only difference will be the type 4 will be even better on the street :) (cooling) And I run my own in heavy traffic, or on the highway all summer!

It may not sound very much compared to your 260whp. But I tell you, it pulls like a freight train!!!! :o :o :o :o :o
 And the nm. makes it SO easy and fun to drive on the street ....

Magic

 P.S. sorry Jacob, that I make a sale ad without talking to you, in your own thread .... ::)  ::) ::)

.

Don't want a rever just want something that has torque and move well, also it wouldn't hurt if i could demolish evo's and subbies when i feel like it.

Car must be daily driven. Magic that's 241 ft/lbs of torque, god that's a lot.

    




















[Don't want a rever just want something that has torque and move well, also it wouldn't hurt if i could demolish evo's and subbies when i feel like it.

Car must be daily driven. Magic that's 241 ft/lbs of torque, god that's a lot.]


 ;D ;D ;D yearr ... that's what you get if you go for the nm. (or ft/lbs... ::) ;D.) in a 2.7 (or bigger) 4 cyl. motor ... Think about it, the engine gets 686ccm. per cylinder and 84mm. in stroke!!!
 (a type 1 that is)
But hey, Jakob can make you a 86 * 105 type 4 if you now think that 2.7 is too little....  :D :D :D....  Is'ent it a little strange, that there ain't more people who try this route?

Jiharrr.... ´just bring them EVO's....... :-* :-* :-* (what is subbies?  :-\)  i have set my rev. limiter at 7200, and practicaly never hit it.. ;)
 When I'm not just out fore heated driving, then i can actually run it like a large modern disel engine, it is that easy, and it is quite indifferent which gear you put it in....
 it can run at idle.... ok, 1100rpm then... ;D (idle is 800rpm.) up small slopes.....(hmm, how do you say this? ..... increases ???)... and yet, it rev  SOO fast if you floor the laud pedal :o

Magic

 

A subbie is a subaru impreza. I am also a fan of the diesel effect with these engines but doesn't the 86mm crank have too much flex. With an 86mm crank you will need expensive rods such as pauter rods to clear the cam lobe.

If you do not want to spent money for pauter rods stop your thoughts. An engine like this is very expensive

Udo

I know they are expensive that's why i want to do an 80mm stroke engine if my 2 71mm cranks aren't good.

Hey Bad Bug.

 Thanks for the explanation about the Subaru im.....! :)
 Now I'm not so tough when it comes to type 4... But is it not 82mm. stroke, you can go up to, before you have to step up to the expensive rods?!
 About flex in the crank, then you are of course somewhat protected, if you build an engine which should not take more than 7500rpm.!
 and now, If you use Deutz cyl.... And( For type 4) the now new (and quite ordinary) H-beam connecting rods..... maybe 105mm. Pistons from a v8 ..... Hmmmmm....!!!
And I know it can be done .... Jacob has already built such an engine!

Magic

Yes you are right 82mm crank with 5.5 h beam rods. I wonder if jakob used 105mm forged units all the time when he is building these big engines or does he use cast ( hypereutectic units ).

Fired up this freshly build type 4 engine a couple of days ago.

Here are some specs:

2366 Type 4, 71x103
Wiseco pistons/deutz cylinders.
318 euro race cam.
44/38 valves.
comp 11:1.
48 idf webers.

should be in the 200 hp range.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUzxp-O560Y&feature=youtu.be

Regards, Jakob.

Jakob did you have any piston rock on the 105mm pistons also did the 105mm use .927 inch piston pins.

Pauters are not expensive, carillo and cunninhams are ..

Hi Jakob,

New engine sounds and looks good.

I am collecting parts for a similar engine, 4inch (with 101.6 JE pistons) type 4 engine,
already have a set off 100mm deutz cylinders.
But does the csp kit clear the Deutz cylinders? (on the picture it looks like it).

Keep pictures coming very interesting.

Regards Edgar

Hi.

the pistons use 22,16 mm pins.

The csp kit clears the cylinders pretty good, a little craftmanship is needed though.

Regards, Jakob.

Just finished the conversion of this water case into air, today.

The case got new lifterbores for type 1 lifters aswell.

Nice Jakob
see you Friday 6July.

Magne

Nice work jakob.

Just installed new alubronze seats for 48/38 valves, in a nice set of porsche 914 heads today.

Regards, Jakob

Jakob, your work is second to none...I love it.

ben