The Cal-look Lounge

has anybody used a cam sensor as an input to there ECU? i have a DTA s60 pro and it has cam sensor inputs so i can use a coil per cylinder i was thinking of using a something like this

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/95-96-97-98-99-00-01-02-Millenia-Cam-Sensor-Distributor-_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQhashZitem1c0c3b1becQQitemZ120464284652QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

unless there is already somthing else i can use

cheers andy

maybe you can modify an old dizzy to take a camsensor? an 009 shouldn't be to hard to modify

I did it like this. Mounted a square headed screw on the camgear.

/Håkan

good idea got to better than making that ebay on fit

cheers andy

thats neat :)

cheers andy

get rid of the distrubutor while you are at it. The ignition varies by as much as 2 degrees because of slack in the distributor drive and the fact that the crank moves back/forth because of Your end play. So go for some kind of cam sensor on the flywheel or crank pulley. it will give you more consistency and better tuning.

ive got a flywheel sensor but i cant use that if i want to use a coil per cylinder, i dont want to split the block yet to fit the cam sensor in the engine as its only covered 1500 miles any other ideas?

cheers andy

Andy,
I have used a vanagon dizzy from a 2,1 for cam sensor purposes to be able to use sequential injection. Its the dizzy with no advance mechanism in it and already has the wiring and so. It works stock with a hall effect sensor and as DTA can read both types, it was rather easy. Shielding the wire is vital though.
The sequential injection only gave me a little better exhaust gas quality at idle with a largish cam n/a though, but that was all I needed it for anyways. Not with the mild-ish turbo cams, idle quality is not a problem anymore and I just run batch. Less wires, less miss fires from shielding problems.

Good luck!
Walter

cool thanks walter :) just got one from ebay

cheers andy

Just don;t forget to carefully weld up the 3 other openings of the hall-effect ring in the dizzy  ;)

I even found some old pics:

Before:
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/51767.jpg)

After:
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/51768.jpg)

 

couldn't you just grind of three of them.

What type of pickup can you use, magnetic or hall effect? We sell a magnetic cam sensor that takes the place of the distributor. Cost is $97.95 I will post a pic later today.
Pat Downs/CB Performance

Ignition timing is based off of the trigger wheel and VR sensor, All the cam sensor does is phase the ecu to #1 cylinder. Having the cam sensor run off of the distributor drive pinion has no effect at all on ignition timing and tuning. For example, Eric Calabrese has his cam synch on his pauter oil pump, imagine how much play he gets between the cam and oil pump drive gear.

This is how I installed cam sensor in a WBX case. I suppose it could work for T1 case also. It is possible to adjust or change the sensor form the oil pump hole.

http://ub-52.blogspot.com/2010/01/blog-post.html

Hi Pat!

Can you post a picture of your sensor?

Thanks,
Basti

hi i can use both have you got a picture and part number so i can order one

cheers andy

Sorry for the delay. Been really busy at the shop. I will get a part number next week. If you want one soon, you can email or call me.
Pat

Just use a 009 without the advance mechanism and install a petronics pick up in there, you have to remove 3 of the magnets form the plastic center ring.
But really unless you want the best fuel economy , there's is no difference in power between the two. And less to go wrong without it .

If you price a 009 with a pertronix, our cam pickup is less exspensive.

Pat
this looks like a nice idea , and easy to install :-)

Udo

ok forget the 009 and the pertronics cos thats all too expencive for people ;D ,
 Get yourself an old second hand dissy take it apart and grind 3 of the bumps that make the points open and close weld the advance mecinism up and put it all together with some new points the points will out put a negitive intill the one bump opens the points, set this up in your ecu and you will have a cam signal  :D

but as i said no need to, it wont make a differance that you realy notice.
but you could do it to say "i have a cam sensor and i run fully sequential fuel injection" just to feel good  :o

you do need a cam sensor to do coil on plug ignition

You don't NEED a cam sensor to run coil on plug ignition , you can run it two ways, wasted spark(yes coil on plug) and sequentialy, I have run them both ways and there is apslutly NO difference what so ever. Maybe there would be a benefit when running a 1000hp methanol 4 cylinder when you need every last bit of coil recovery time, but then I would use a proper digital CDI system.

I'm interested in knowing how you ran sequential ignition without a cam sensor? Being able to trim fuel and spark at individual cylinders can give you a definate gain in power. I have seen as much as 150 degrees difference in cylinder egt's. I agree that sequential efi will not give you any more power all things being equal but the adjustability of it has the possability to do so.

Some engines respond well to changing the injection timing, I normally hold it at at a RPM on the dyno, watch the power and adjust the injection timing, find the best spot by watching the power and call it done. Normally you end up having to take fuel out once you have found the sweet spot, due to more fuel getting to where it needs to go.

Thats not what is discussed here though... Its about changing timing and fuel on individual cylinders which is what sequential offers...
I'am with Marco on this one though: No offense, but I think 99% of the people here won't be able to get the benefits from that tuning ability full sequential offers, even if the system did ran perfect on their cars.
Pat is probably right though that it could give a benefit. However, the more the benefit you see, the more unequal your engine ran...so you need to ask yourself what is wrong with your engine (parts) if full sequential individuel tuning gave you substantial hp gains... ::)
I also ran it and i did give better mixture quality at idle, so I passed inspection (its a street car) without adjusting the maps at all, unlike the year before when I had to strangle fuel for CO-gas to pass.
Like Marco said: more things to go wrong and the hall-effect pick-up is very critical to plug wires, even when shielded, so now and then I did get a misfire from the cam-sensor and that was enough for me to return to (semi-)batch fire. No problems since  ;)

I agrree that an engine "should" not need sequential to run correctly. But, there are situations where the engine is tuned perfectly and you have differences in EGT's. For example, cylinder 1 and 3 typicly do not get the airflow in a car that 2 and 4 get. This will be noticed at WOT when using egt's at each cylinder.  My car uses a pressure box with ducted air into it. I always have two cylinders running cooler than the other two. With sequential, I can tune some of this problem out of the engine. Sure, in a perfect world this should not have to be done but it is rarely ever a perfect world. Another benefeit of sequential is injector size. There are turbo engines now using 140lb + size injectors. Running batch, you are never going to control that size of an injector at idle and at very light cruise. For the record, My race car has never ran sequential but my plans are to do so this year. I need another tenth in my E.T to set a Pro Stock record. Hopefully having control of fuel at each cylinder will give it to me.

I think your probably that 1% who can run their car for multiple dyno sessions tuning it. Most nobody even has 4 EGT sensors on their engine, let alone one  ;)
But I fully agree with the above  ;D aint it the truth.
Did you ever experience the new style Bosch injectors Pat? Those from Injector Dynamics or Fuel Injector Clinic will redefine what you can or can't run at idle.
I now run the ID1000's and they idle better then the already great Siemens 630cc (60lbs) I had before (!)
The new Bosch style also comes in 1680 and 2200 cc,  which is great for E85 users.
Guys now even run ID2200's (thats 200 lbs...) with high-Z on 4-cylinders engines and those idle great!
Nothing like the old Bosch 160 lbs injectors anymore. This new technology is quite amazing imo alas not cheap..

I have seen most of the injectors on the market. Even the best high impediance injector will only function down to 1-1.2 ms. Low impediance can get down to .7 ms. No problem using E85 or meth but a gas engine using 140lb or higher injectors will have an issue controling the injector at idle running batch. My asperated engine uses 60psi injectors running at 80% duty cycle. I can barely get the injector to pulse at idle, around 1.3ms. Would you guys like to have 4 egt inputs in a ecu? I can do it but the cost of the ecu will go up by about $75.00. This doesn't include the egt sensors.

True, but it doesn't need to go that low, ie. under 1,3 ms: The flow has a linear decline towards those small pulse widths. Only as off 8 or 9ms do they flow steady state at the given lbs-rating of the injector, so you almost have a small and a big injector at once!
You sure you have also already used these late bosch-derived injectors? as you must have noticed this also?

You probably meant 60lbs/min injector? What make/model is it?
I run high restistance ID1000cc's (also new style bosch) on a 2,2 engine with low static compression and even lower dynamic compression at 60psi fuel pressure at idle...and it idles super stable on pump gas at a decent AFR. I am also pretty sure I could use the FIC 1680cc's (the new style bosch) and have a stable idle on gas as well. Its just that they are so damn costly.

I deff would! EGT tuning is usually telling a vital story when your tuning at the edge, maybe sometimes even more so then lambda imo.
Now I would have to buy an auxilary controlbox to log egt's. The ecu would then also have the ability to log the egt's, with a menu to choose logging parameters as you can't log and display everything of course (memory).

I run the Seimens 60lb per hour injector in my car. You are correct, egt's at each cylinder are IMO more important than Lambda. I will post some H-P numbers when I switch the ecu out to sequential. Being able to tune out a 100 degree difference in egt's hopefully will show a little more power.

The new HIGH impedance injectors can now go down to 0.50 ms!!!! They are unreal, the control is on another planet!!! But that another story, for 99.999% of people a cam signal is not needed, I would recommend them to concentrate on tuning the engine better for cold start, getting the correct ignition timing, ect, ect than to mess with a cam sensor.

Never Had issue with rf with honeywell gt101 hall effect sensors on my autronic, they run close to spark plug leads without sheilding, .
Yes your right I was talking about injector firing angle and not individual cylinder triming of injection timing. You will see gains in getting your injection timing in the sweet spot, Its just part of tunning a sequentialy injected engine.

all very interesting stuff,

I tried both when i was running DTA, block fire and sequentially. only noticeable gains i found was around the idle.

But now I'm running AEM, it has to have a cam sync, otherwise it wont work. I got the signal from the end of the oil pump drive on my motor, as i may need to use the dizzy for somthing else.

You have to cam sync when your running Pectel / Life racing ecu's and the likes, as they treat each cylinder as an individual motor. mainly on the timing side, Unfortunately our motors are far too mechanically noisy to run such systems.


Think its going to be down to personal choice and the motor combo you want to run and its application and also the budget!

Tomi,

I Like your set up. But how did you locate the 5mm bolt on the cam gear?
I am new to EFI set up. but right now I am building Turbo EFI and looking for sequensial set up.

Its a sensor that tells the ECU when the motor is at TDC on number 1.  If it were me doing the same mod I would first drill the hole where I wanted the sensor to go. put a long bolt in the hole, degree the motor to TDC on number 1 and run the bolt down to mark the cam gear.  Then drill the gear

I did it exactly as Taylor described. You can adjust the position with the ecu to some degree, but I suppose it is better to get it mechanically as correct as possible. You should also find a position where it does not overlap with the rpm signal, I know some ECU's do not like that.

Taylor, Tomi,

Now  i am with you.. ;D. a better set up other than having a modified dist.
I will do that way..cheers