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Cal-look/High Performance => Cal-look => Topic started by: Jesse/DVK on March 13, 2011, 22:11:16 pm



Title: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Jesse/DVK on March 13, 2011, 22:11:16 pm
I'm currently upgrading my 1915cc tot a 2178cc. These are the parts I have.

2175cc / AS41 case / 78.4mm DPR counterweighted Crankshaft / Scat 5.4” I-Beam rods / Mahle 94mm pistons and cylinders / Engle FK-8 with CB Straight cut gears / CB lightweight lifters / Lightweight HD aluminium pushrods / 1.4 rockers / Steve Tims Stage 2 Plus 043 welded heads with 42×37.5 / Weber 48IDA carbs on CB Big Beef manifolds and Gene Berg linkage / Magnaspark 2 Ignition / A1 1 3/4” merged header with A1 turbo muffler / Lightened 200mm flywheel with Kennedy stage 2 pressure plate and Daiken clutch / Schadek 26mm oilpump with Gene Berg cover / Gene Berg 4Qt sump / Gene Berg Traction bar

The cam is from my 1915cc engine and I planned to use it again but also looking at a web 86c and maybe even a raptor cam.

How would a 86c differ from a FK-8 powerwise and how it handles on the street? And also compared to the raptor cam?

It's a street/strip 64 beetle with a 4.12 - 3.78, 2.08, 1.44 1.04 gearbox.


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Jim Ratto on March 13, 2011, 23:30:20 pm
what compression ratio will you run?


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: TexasTom on March 14, 2011, 01:17:30 am
You really should consult Johannes for the Raptor recommendation. He will taylor the cam choice to your desired use/power preferences AND engine combination. It's the best choice available.
Not to mention, you'd likely be able to use near all your existing components, maybe change to his spring retainers ... !

As for the FK8 to 86C jump, it will be a huge difference, especially in top end performance ... will pull hard from 4000 to 8K plus. You will need different pushrods and valve springs, most likely.
You can drive it easy or HARD, but there will be some loss down low. The more compression you use, the more snap it will have.
I think it'd work great with your gearbox.

Just got back from a store/fuel run ... nothing like melting them down in 2nd and pulling 3rd gear rubber merging on the highway! WHEW!
I mean, ummm ... it performed admirably during the errand and was an enjoyable experience, Officer. Ahem! ;)


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Jim Ratto on March 14, 2011, 03:56:53 am
I have run the 86C in my own car twice now, once in the 2276 from 1998 that went 12.66 @ Carlsbad with 40mm chokes and pump gas, and now with my 94 x 78, 9.8:1, 40mm chokes, pump gas.
My impressions of the cam in both motors are much like Texas Tom mentioned, you can drive it like a "normal" car or you can rip the seat rails off the pan (quote from my ex boss when he drove my 86C 2276 in 1998). It's a very hard cam, that you can drive. Every motor I have built with it (for others) has given same results and when I drove Bill S.' car, same thing, you could ease around like an old lady without any sluggishness or protest under 3000rpm. With gears it will work that much better. What I love about the 86C is either coming into a 2nd gear corner, getting car around and through and then opening it up. Or getting on the freeway here in So Cal, you begin off ramp in 2nd gear, stomp it, 7200, shift, into third up to 6800, then BRAKE so you don't run over the traffic in slower lanes, click it into fourth and let it sit @ 4200, right were it goes from being a lamb and becoming a lion. Want to pass 3 or 4 cars @ 85mph? Just tip into the throttles and you're gone.
In my 22 years of trying cams in VW's I've only run 2 cams that were "undriveable" on the street: VZ35 and Clay Smith 320. Even the FK87 did fine in my 74mm thing.
The K8 in the 1915cc is a hard characteristic to duplicate, to me it's kind of a match made in heaven. In order to get same powerband characteristics once you stroke a VW, you need to dial in more overlap. No way around that.
Pauter R6E8 runs well too with 1.25's


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: fredy66 on March 14, 2011, 04:14:41 am
any more info on the 78 94 enggine ?


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Jesse/DVK on March 14, 2011, 07:27:27 am
what compression ratio will you run?

Chambers are 53cc and I planned on running zero deck with a 1mm copperhead shim. Should be around 9.7:1.

Thanks for all the replies! 86c sounds like a really nice cam! Also contacted JPM for their advice.

What springs are recommended for the 86c? Is notching of the pistons required? And are CB lightweight lifters ok to use with webcam?


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: wolfswest on March 14, 2011, 09:11:14 am
you got pb...  ;)


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Jesse/DVK on March 16, 2011, 13:07:26 pm
What springs are recommended for the 86c? Is notching of the pistons required? And are CB lightweight lifters ok to use with webcam?

Anyone?


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: TexasTom on March 16, 2011, 14:06:40 pm
Piston to valve clearance should be OK, but I'd definitely measure it just to make sure. Take nothing for granted.

I'd call Webcam (or CB) to ask about lifter compatability.

I run Berg dual springs. The 86C is right on the ragged edge of Chevy springs, but I've had good luck over the years with high quality duals.
Yet another question Webcam could answer for you.
TxT


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Jim Ratto on March 16, 2011, 16:13:50 pm
Jesse, I am running CB lightweights in my motor, and ran them last time too with Pauter cam (19K miles on that with no pitting). I run Bugpack 4046 springs, each one is shimmed to +.100" bind on each individual lift figure. Came out to 300# open and 165# on seat. I limit rpm to 7K though.
To do over I might look @ those CB 650 springs, but I've used 4046's since 1994 and like them.


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Jesse/DVK on March 16, 2011, 17:31:32 pm
Thanks Jim, Tom,

I will ask webcam what they recommend.

Any how-to's on shimmings valve springs?


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Jim Ratto on March 16, 2011, 18:07:02 pm
http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,6122.0.html

 :)


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Torben Alstrup on March 17, 2011, 19:33:36 pm
CR is on the low side. At 10,3 it really begins to wake up. At 11-1 its a warrior.

T


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Jesse/DVK on March 17, 2011, 19:42:11 pm
With my heads a 53cc it's 10.08:1 Is 11:1 possible with 98 octane? As it's kinda hard to get that at the pump nowadays here in the Netherlands.


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Diederick/DVK on March 17, 2011, 20:40:05 pm
won't you have more overlap with an 86C and thus a lower dynamic CR, allowing you to raise the static CR?


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: TexasTom on March 17, 2011, 21:58:49 pm
I raised mine to 10.55:1, which calculated to 7.54:1 dynamic; 48cc chambers.
Torben's right, power increase and response is CRAZY.
Runs on 93 octane pump gas with 30*BTDC total no problem, & cool, ;)


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Zach Gomulka on March 17, 2011, 22:31:14 pm
How do you calculate dynamic CR?


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: TexasTom on March 17, 2011, 22:47:57 pm
This is the one I use:

http://www.kb-silvolite.com/calc.php?action=comp

pretty straight forward ...


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Torben Alstrup on March 18, 2011, 01:22:28 am
At 11 - 1 it runs very well on 98 octane. At 10,3 it´ll run on 95. I thought that you had Shell and Aral stations with 98 octane in the Netherlands ?

T


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Jesse/DVK on March 18, 2011, 10:36:07 am
Shell only provides Shell VW-power which is just regular 95 octane with additives.

Aral is hard to find in my neighbourhood.

Thanks!

Jim, when reffering to 4046 springs from bugpack do you mean the chevy style ones? What thickness do the coils have?


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Diederick/DVK on March 18, 2011, 10:54:06 am
chevy style = 4046-10, vwparts sell the 4046 but they're not listed on the website.
i'm pretty sure jim was referring to the 4046 VW style.


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: ianmac on March 18, 2011, 21:27:24 pm

JPM cams / parts look awesome, I have switched from FK-87 (which went flat  ::)) to JPM raptor with 11:1 on a 2276cc street motor, not quite finished I can't wait to drive it ;D speak to Johannes


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: neil68 on March 18, 2011, 23:29:14 pm
From my personal experience, both the FK8 and 86C are good camshafts for street driven Beetles and also weekend drag racing.  Certainly the 86C is preferred, if you're more concerned with 1/4-mile ET, whereas the FK8 would be a better choice if street driving was your main priority.

For 1/4-mile racing, switching from the FK8 to 86C got my heavy stock Beetle from the high 13's into the high 12's, higher rpm range, etc.

On the street, wiith IDA's I didn't notice too much difference between the cams, perhaps just a touch rougher idle/low rpm with the 86C, but not enough to annoy me.

I agree, those JPM Raptor cam setups look nice!!


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Jesse/DVK on March 18, 2011, 23:32:20 pm
Thanks for all the replies guys!

I ordered a 86C and some Thorsten Pieper tool steel lifters :).

Any thought on vents for 48 IDA's?? 40mm? 42mm?

Also using Jaycee stacks.


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: TexasTom on March 19, 2011, 01:09:34 am
I'd experiment with 40mm venturies if maximum performance is your goal ... with street driving in between.
 ;)


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: ED2.4 on March 19, 2011, 10:42:53 am
Hi,
just for sharing my experience too,
i've a 86C with 1.4 rockers on my 2332cc with Brothers VW 043 welded heads in 44X38 valves and Bugpack 4047 springs ,carbs are 48 Drla with 42 mm vents,
push hard 4000 to 6500rpm,and very smooth street driven at low rpm,205hp@5600rpm and 195lbs/ft@5100rpm,
a great cam for sure


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: neil68 on March 19, 2011, 22:44:29 pm
Thanks for all the replies guys!

I ordered a 86C and some Thorsten Pieper tool steel lifters :).

Any thought on vents for 48 IDA's?? 40mm? 42mm?

Also using Jaycee stacks.

My engine with 86C had IDA's with 42 venturies, 44 x 37 K-Roc heads, Udo Becker tool steel lifters and Jaycee stacks (0lder version).  180.4 HP at the wheels and best ET 12.9 seconds at 104 MPH.  Very smooth on the street as well...


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Jim Ratto on March 20, 2011, 19:12:59 pm
40mm chokes in my 2276 with Denham sideways wedgeport "Lonnie Reed" heads and 86C and 9.3:1 went 12.66 @ 104 full weight car on pump gas.
40mm will make good power to 7800 with your cc, provided your heads and springs will get you there.

I tried 42mm in my current motor (but with Pauter R6E8) and it really lost it's torque and response almost across the board.


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Jesse/DVK on April 20, 2011, 14:03:35 pm
How much benefit is there from using 1.5 rockers vs 1.4 rockers on the 86C cam? As i'm about to buy a set of Pauter rockers and they cost the same. Is it expected that the pistons need notching with .050 deckheight? And thinking of Bugpack 4046 or GB 273a springs.

Thanks!


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Udo on April 20, 2011, 18:21:23 pm
40mm chokes in my 2276 with Denham sideways wedgeport "Lonnie Reed" heads and 86C and 9.3:1 went 12.66 @ 104 full weight car on pump gas.
40mm will make good power to 7800 with your cc, provided your heads and springs will get you there.

I tried 42mm in my current motor (but with Pauter R6E8) and it really lost it's torque and response almost across the board.

Jim
The R6 is a little small for that engine , i would use a bigger pauter cam with 1,4 rockers . so you do not stress the springs too much

Udo


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Jesse/DVK on April 21, 2011, 10:04:20 am
How much benefit is there from using 1.5 rockers vs 1.4 rockers on the 86C cam? As i'm about to buy a set of Pauter rockers and they cost the same. Is it expected that the pistons need notching with .050 deckheight? And thinking of Bugpack 4046 or GB 273a springs.

Thanks!

Anyone? Would like to order asap :D


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: K-Roc on April 21, 2011, 16:07:13 pm
With either of those 2 springs you may encounter coil bind with a 1.5 Rocker, it all depends on how things work out, you have to trial assemble and measure/Check. Same with Notching, it depends on how much the head is flycut for compression.

But for a bolt together combo, an 86C with 1.4's and a non flycut head ie ( say a 55-60cc Chamber) you would be OK most likely.


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Torben Alstrup on April 21, 2011, 16:11:33 pm
Also, I doubt that you will be able to measure any difference in power when you are at 42 mm intake. They are on the upper side of effective with 1,4´s. - Going 44 mm valves they would make a difference if the port is good.

T


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Jesse/DVK on April 21, 2011, 18:30:47 pm
So 1.4 it will be :)


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Udo on April 21, 2011, 20:14:25 pm
This is what i said , your springs and installed height will not handel the 1,5 rockers .

Udo


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Jesse/DVK on April 21, 2011, 20:21:08 pm
This is what i said , your springs and installed height will not handel the 1,5 rockers .

Udo

Sorry thought you were referring to Jim.


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Jesse/DVK on May 23, 2011, 08:57:02 am
Another question, I now have a set of Pauter 1.4 rockers but which valve covers can I use with them? Do bolt on's work to with way the pauter rockers are bolted on the head?


Title: Re: Other cam? 2175cc
Post by: Type1/DVK on May 23, 2011, 09:14:03 am
Paulus has also those pauters, and he orderd the orange style CSP bolt on covers.