The Cal-look Lounge

Well guys as always as the title says - Berg5 speed conversions for swing axle cars  - I would like to hear some REAL LIFE EXPERIENCE please from people who have used/driven/built gearboxes with this conversion  :)

I want to try and get as much usefull information for future reference as I hope to use one of these in PROJECT 66 using a  215/60 rear and 175/70 front tire combo,

I have a just a few little questions I have  ;)

- Can they be used with the old skool ZF LSD Diff ?
- what kinda of "set ups" do you have ?
- what kind of ratios would you suggest for this tire set up on a "street car" 175/70 front & 215/60 rear ?
- who have you used to build these conversions for you ?
- what type of mounts do you use for street use ?
- what are the body/chassis mods needed to fit the built box (if any) ?

I am sure there are a few others on hear that would also like to hear this kind of info on this conversion so thanks in advance  :)

I've never owned one but I did put a few miles, and a LOT of seat time in my old roomates Berg 5, so here's my two cents for what it's worth...
Yes on the ZF (the diff doesn't care how many gears you have)
As far as ratios go, do you want a evenly spaced "factory" 5 speed, or a close 1-4 for racing and a "stock" 4th in the 5th gear location? If racing is your bag, then you need to know your powerband before you choose your gears so you can optimize your engine's power. Your tires will be pretty close to stock height, so that isn't much of an issue.
I would say there's no one better than Gary Berg to build it.
My roommate tried solid intermediate mounts once, and it made the car miserable.
If racing is your primary concern, I'd stick with a 4 speed. 5 speeds cost a lot more to fix. If sporty driving along with an occasional race is what you'll be doing, a 5 speed is perfect.

I plan on getting one built for the GTV someday (with "factory" ratios) it wouldn't be "GT" without it :)

MB,

Yes, I second most all of Zach's input.
I have 3 or 4 sets of wheels/tires and really all work out without any concern.
Currently and interestingly, I have 215/60s and 185/60s; my ratios are 3.88 r&p, 4.11, 2.47. 1.65. 1.21 & 0.93 5th.
I can cruize on the highway at an easy 75-85 mph with no overheating and that's on 10.5:1 compression. I did research my ratios and consult experts beforehand though.
Would I change anything? Yes, with a different powerband, 1st & 2nd for sure, also 5th doesn't need to be other than the 0.89 stock ... it won't break!
I will be experimenting with a higher r&p soon as well,  when the new engine is done ...

I also would highly recommend GB for the build, after all he did help design and create it! Although, I know there are others skilled in this area too.

Really, from a driving standpoint, it's FANTASTIC! Everything you think it could be and more.

As for mods, only a relatively small cutout or dimple to the torsion housing ... I run rubber mounts on the street (nice & quiet) and insert solids to the intermediate for the track, works great!

If and when you make the decision, you won't look back.
TxT

Cool thanks guys this is exactly the kin of info I was hoping for  :) I kinda figured that about the ZF but I just wanted to check  ;)

I am not planning on doing alot of racing I really want more of a "evenly spaced "factory" 5 speed" so what kind of ratio would you suggest  ??? I plan on USING the car as much as possible  ;)

I am think it might be best to use the Grey HD stock VW mounts - best for all round use  :)

how about choosing between mike billings's ratios : 4.37 - 3.78; 2.06; 1.48; 1.14; 0.89
or the berglar's : 4.37 - 3.78; 2.25; 1.58; 1,14; 0.89
those ratios are off the top of my head, so i might be wrong on the 3rd and 4th. they used a similar height rear tyre, respectively 215/60 and 185/70
plus you always change the r&p and keep the space but make the whole taller.
it's important to know what you wanna spend too, both of the above use mostly stock-ish gears, whereas the 5-speed of TxT uses at least 3 gears that will cost you a bit more.

I have a page doug berg made with my specs and rpm/mph graphed. trans is 4.12 klink with zf. 3.78 , 2.31 , 1.58 , 1.17 , .89 . With 25.78" talll tire at 7500 . mph is .. 1st 37.04, 2nd 60.61 , 3rd 88.61, 4th 119.67, 5th 157.32 .... 69.22 mph at 3300 rpm's. Will take pic of page. Current rims and tires 205/65 x 15 rear 155 x 15 front..Pics of gusset and adj braces that tie into brace bolted to rear roll bar mounts . bill

Damn Bill, helluva set up you've got there!

For a "factory" 5 speed, I think every gear change should have a little less rpm drop than the last. I plan on using a 4.12 r+p (I like the "eagerness" of a 4.12, not as lazy off the line as a 3.88 or as aggressive as a 4.37), a 3.78, 2.25 (or was it 2.21?) main shaft, 1.48 3rd, 1.04 4th, and a .77 5th. The 4.12 x .77 comes out to the same final drive as a 3.88 x .82, and with the little 165's I'll be using (along with driving the fan faster) highway cooling shouldn't be a problem. I think it's something like 3250rpm @ 75mph. I've done a lot of math figuring these ratios out, and on paper everything looks fantastic. I've talked to Gary Berg and Steve Hollingsworth about it, and they both think it will be a great set of gears (although 5th was a bit low for their tastes, which I figured). The 1.04 4th also gives me decent speed, need I ever change down to pull a big hill (or do some aggressive passing!) I wont get run over in the slow lane. I think 3500rpm is right around 65mph.

Wow looks like you have ever type of "extra mount" possible  :-\ is this all on a street car ???

Thanks for all the idea's/info/PM's guys - I still wanna know more about the body mods needed for the nose cone area  :-\

This is how The Paintbox guys sorted that problem on my Oval:

(http://i868.photobucket.com/albums/ab243/matt_dainty/IMG_0040.jpg)

HTH

Matt

Mine is a IRS built by Gary Berg.

3.78/2.06/1.58/1.21/0.82 with a 3.875 r/p and ZF Tires are 205/60-15

I can cruise all day at 80mph with the engine turning 3500rpm.

Here's a Excel spreadsheet you can download and it will graph your ratios.

http://www.glenn-ring.com/tech/tranny_calc.xls

(http://www.glenn-ring.com/temp/gear_ratio.jpg)

Interesting thread. Can someone explain how they manage to build it as strong as a ordinary 4 speed? I would suspect that the longer main shaft would make it weaker.

The ERCO one piece shaft is plenty strong... and not cheap.

So you need to cut your car and make sure you're Berg 5 has a Erco main shaft just to have a original 4th gear ratio for the 5th gear? Sorry, I just don't get it.

You don't get the advantages of closer gears ???

I have closer gears than stock and a taller 5th so I can cruise ad highway speeds.

BTW... I get 28mpg on the interstate with 48 IDAs. 

I have 3.78/2.35/1.58/1.21/0.89 with a 3.88 – a 1.21 4th would be a pain in the neck with a four-speed, cruising at 50mph, ears ringing, head aching etc etc. The extra gear certainly makes driving a car with a close-ratio trans a lot more pleasurable. Honestly, I never believed how much better life is with a five-speed until I tried it.

The one thing I will point out is that the shift into fifth gear isn't the slickest, so don't expect to 'bang gears' all the way up through the ’box.

I've done it ... those 'ricers' like to go top end
I gave up @ 6100 in 5th ... running out of road and foresaw the impending doom of 145s and drum brakes.
Of course, he stayed in it and blew past me after I hit the brakes ... he was 2 car lengths behind, prior ...

I throw 5th at 105mph and it's still pulling. (front disc and 195/55-15 front tires ;) )

I have a ZF in my 5 speed- feels great. But they are not as strong as a Quaiffe. ;D

Engine mods covered above- although I did see a takeaway box used once rather than sheet metal to cover the "hump" ???

To protect mine while I have some strip fun it is in the garage and I run a close ratio 4 speed which is cheaper to replace if I choose to run sticker rubber and launch harder.

Cant wait to get the 5 speed back in next year though and can see why a large number of DKP cars run 5 speeds.

Enjoy it when you get it.

It's because you haven't looked at the 5 speed's internals.  The 5 speed shafts are supported in exactly the same position as a 4.  A stock 4 has all 4 gears between the supporting bearings.  The 5 uses these same positions, placing 5th on the other side of the forward bearings.  Thus, the deflection of the two shafts is exactly the same between the two gearboxes.

The shafts are the same as a 4, except that they are extended.  If you built a 4 using a stock 3.78 and you broke it, you'd break that same stock 3.78 in a 5, if you went that way.  Buy an ERCO mainshaft for your 4, it's the same as the mainshaft for the 5.  
You don't have to use an ERCO mainshaft.  You can use the stock one, extending it is part of the kit.

Then there's the pinion.  It's the same as a 4, neither stronger nor weaker.

If you have a late car, you don't cut anything on the body.  It's only the really early cars that require cutting and welding to the package tray.

The only disadvantage with a 5 is that IMO it's kinda foolish to drag race with one.  Not because of the strength, it's the cost when you break things.  If you break the R&P, not only do you have to get another R&P, but you have to send it to Berg to be lengthened.  Last time I checked (4 yrs ago) it was around $200.  Then you have to wait until they do a batch of them.
Oh ya, they're quite a bit heavier too.

True... I only had to whack the right torsion tube a few times for it to fit. No cutting needed.

Hmmmm thanks for all the input guys BUT I do have to agree with Kalle/beetlebug  :-\

You HAVE to modify your car even if it is just some trimming of the framehorns etc (more on an early car)  - its cost ALOT - its NO stronger than a standard 4 speed - and worst of all you still only get a STANDARD 4th ratio as your new 5th  :(

Can someone please tell me why there is not a longer 5th gear used  ??? Because at the moment I would be spending ALOT of money and I would still be cruzing at the same speed/RPM as my old manx with a stock 4speed :-\
(3250rpm = 75/80mph)

You can put any gear at 5th, i have a bus 4th (0.82) in my 5th gear for highway cruising.

Ok but again 0.89 or 0.82 are the only ones you hear of people using  :-\

what gear would you need to come down to say 2500rpm at 75mph (sorry I didn't pass maths :D) this would be a much better rpm and if needed you always drop down a gear for big hill's and over taking  :)

Not advisable with an air cooled engine. Remember, you need to keep that fan turning to cool the engine. You can get a 3.44 r&p to lower the final drive even more, but unless an aggressively geared mainshaft is used, it will feel like a dog off the line.

yeah yeah yeah I know  ::) ;) :)

I am sure we have talked about this before BUT I would really like to see a 5th gear that could at least bring the rpm under 3000 at 75mph - surely this would be ok with a properly set-up and correct tuned aircooled bug motor  :-\

This is called Cal-Look.  Modifying our cars is what we do.  If you don't want to modify your car, then you're free to leave.
So does a full tilt 2332 engine, a set of real BRMs or early Fuchs.  What's your point?
It's also no weaker than a standard 4 speed, yet there are thousands of guys on this forum using a VW 4 speed.  What does that tell you?
 As Glenn stated, you can pick any ratio you want for 5th.  The reason most gearboxes get built with a .89 or a .82 is because that's what works.  Taller doesn't work in a Beetle because it slows down the cooling fan too much.
Here are some ratios you can put in 5th gear:
1.65
1.59
1.56
1.50
1.47
1.44
1.42
1.40
1.37
1.35
1.30
1.22
1.21
1.19
1.17
1.13
1.09
1.04
1.00
0.96
0.93
0.89
0.85
0.82
0.77
0.70

Take your pick.  
The Berg 5 is so flexible you can swap the position of 4th and 5th!

A 5 speed's biggest attribute isn't a taller final drive, you can do that with a normal 4 speed. The biggest advantage is it makes it easier to keep the engine in its power band no matter what your road speed is.

Hey bruce - Thanks for the info especially the ratio list  :)

I think you have taking my points a little out of context though  :-\ I wasn't really "having a go" at the berg5 its just when you sit there and try to explain this to a non -vw guy (ie my girlfriends dad) you start to realise that even after alll the effort/expence of getting a Berg5 speed you still only have a Standard 4th gear as your "top gear"  :-\ I understand that the "idea" of this conversion is to have a closer set of 1-4 gears and still have a cruzing gear (as zach also mentioned) BUT......... I am really looking for that Longer 5th/top gear/final drive

I am fully aware of the "cooling issues" etc (I am not new to all this ;)) but I am only talking about losing 500 more rpm so that when you cruzing on the highway at 75/80mph you would be doing under 3000rpm (something like 2800rpm) surely this would be ok  :-\ ???

I am thinking the 0.77 might be a good 5th :-\ ???

Any thoughts  ??? :)

you can change your cruising rpm by changing the size of rear tire.!!!

Now that you understand you can pick virtually any 5th gear you want, you must now stop parroting that "5th is the same as stock 4th".
What R&P?

The RPMs you propose won't work. In a stock late 4 speed (3.88 x .93), you're doing about 3800 rpm at 80mph.  If you're thinking of a 3.88 x .77, you will be at 3200 rpm at 80mph..

Back when I used to run a 22.5" rear tyre, I built a 3.88x.82.  The result was 3600 rpm on the freeway.  When I upped to a 215/60/15 tyre (24.5"), I instantly noticed a 20ºF increase in cruising temps (still with the 3.88 x .82 = 3400rpm).  When I built my 5 speed, I picked a 4.12 and mated it with a .82 for 5th.  Now 80mph is 3600 rpm.  This is made possible with a larger 36hp lower pulley to speed up the fan.

MB,

What engine are you planning to use with this 5 speed?
Sounds to me, rather than spend the extra cash on a 5th gear, you should convert to a built Bus 4speed and go 4 INCH BORE.
All the torque you'll ever need ...  ;)

Yes, as mentioned before, the reason I installed one was to have a trans that would compliment my engine and it's powerband while tearing it up on the street, then still be able to take the car on extended cruises in comfort. There's nothing fun about driving down the highway @ 55 MAX ... at least not here in Texas. ;)
I run different size tires from time to time, but always target around 3500 rpm for my cruising speed which is always plenty with 5th.

I wish you good luck with your decision!
TxT

Hey Tom - Sorry I have been meaning to reply to your PM  ::)  Thanks for the info/input and by the way your Blue Bug is F¤&KIN AWESOME  ;D

Anyway back to the 5 speed - I am planning on using this box with my 2180cc SPG motor that Gary Holznect is putting together for me, its gonna be a "Street motor" and I am hoping for somewhere around 160/170bhp at the rear wheels but we'll have to wait and see - As  also mentioned before I want to run 215/60/R15 rear tires too,

I am liking the idea of the 3.88 R&P and  0.77 5th (apparently giving around 3200rpm according to bruce) This sounds more acceptable to me - I just don't like the idea of all the time/money/effort and then dropping into 5th and still cruzing at the same RPM as I have in the past with a stock 4speed,
 
I am starting to think it might be better to build a slightly more "evenly spaced" STRONG 4 speed  :-\ but then I keep thinking about that 5th gear  ;) :)

Any more thoughts ???

A couple of observations: first, unless your motor produces a 'useful' amount of torque, you'll find yourself dropping down out of a very high 'top' gear (be it fourth in a four-speed, or fifth in a five-speed) as soon as you come to any incline. Bear in mind that a roller-crank motor must not be 'lugged' at all – ie, put under load at low rpm, such as relying on torque to pull your high-geared car up a hill. While pinning the crank will have cured a roller-crank's twisting problems, there will still be the underlying weakness shared by all roller-crank motors in that they do not like this low-rpm loading. It hammers the hell out of the rollers. Porsche was very emphatic about this regarding its Carrera four-cam motors.

Now, you're talking about building a wide-spaced four-speed – maybe you don't really need a five-speed? As repeatedly written, the only real advantage of a five-speed is to close up the lower ratios to allow you to make use of a narrow power/torque band, yet retain the ability to cruise with a stock-ish top gear. VWs are highly geared anyway. What sort of power/torque characteristics does your roller-crank motor have? Is it a 'peaky' rev-happy cammer of a motor, or a lazy torque monster?

TBH, the simplest way to raise your gearing is, as Tom has said, play around with tyre sizes. It's far less hassle to swap tyres than it is to rebuild gearboxes! :D

I have had one for a few years. It doesn't matter what is written here. The only way to understand it fully is to experience a 5 speed (with the right ratios) in the flesh so to speak.
Matched to the right engine  ;) its a dream. Fly though the gears hitting a 100 mph in 4th then putting it in 5th is like taking a pain killer that works instantly.

IMHO its the best mod you can make when your getting old and weary.

I have also been thinking to get berg 5-speed for my 75 irs trans.  I remember that berg's saying that their 5-speed has same type of design as 901 porsche or vw 5-speed 091 trans.
To me, one piece mainshaft is only option. Did i understand correctly, than pinionshaft must also be extended?

Most guys fear the extended mainshaft for no valid reason.  The shafts almost never come apart.  There are one piece mainshafts, but they only come in limited ratios with limited availability.  For other ratios, you need to get a 4 speed shaft and have it extended.

Pinion shafts require extending.  Nobody makes a new R&P set with a longer pinion shaft.

I've had my Berg 5 since '97 and have around 60K miles on it now.  When I switched engines from 1776 to 2007 I changed my 4th gear.  I am now running 4.12 R&P with 3.78, 2.21,1.58,1.21,0.89 ratios from 1st to 5th.  I'm with Bruce and Keith on this one.  Don't gear it too tall or you will be sorry.  I remember showing a friend my oil temp at 3200 RPM and at 3600 RPM it dropped over 10 degrees.  You really need that fan speed to cool the engine.  They didn't have 1 piece main shafts when I had mine built so I bought a FTC main shaft and the Bergs lengthened it.  I have had no issues with that.  I run VW bus rubber motor mounts on the midmount and they are very solid and also very hard to find.  The only thing I have broke is a hockey stick and was earlier this year.  I am currently running a 2165 with about 150 HP at the crank.  I can drive around at 35MPH and drive off to over 100 without downshifting or hesitating.  It doesn't blast off from that speed, but it pulls smoothly.  By the way I have a 1.26 4th gear for sale as well as a Berg locking 5-speed shifter.  Oh yeah I love my Berg 5.

Hello everyone. I have one since a few years now. The goal was to use the car on the strip and on the street. R&P is G3.88, mostly because it is the strongest one. Gears are 3.78/2.36/1.65/1.31/0.89. The mainshaft is one piece from Weedle. Here is a picture:
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5104/5783714884_3df4dbb243.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/63543227@N04/5783714884/)
Main Shaft GB5 (http://www.flickr.com/photos/63543227@N04/5783714884/) par bmxandtoys (http://www.flickr.com/people/63543227@N04/), sur Flickr
The R&P was modified by Berg:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2322/5783755348_b370b92812.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/63543227@N04/5783755348/)
R&P GB (http://www.flickr.com/photos/63543227@N04/5783755348/) par bmxandtoys (http://www.flickr.com/people/63543227@N04/), sur Flickr
So you can see the 5 gears on the two sahfts:
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2596/5783207255_79be03322d.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/63543227@N04/5783207255/)
GB5 gears (http://www.flickr.com/photos/63543227@N04/5783207255/) par bmxandtoys (http://www.flickr.com/people/63543227@N04/), sur Flickr

I have been thinking either berg 5 with all weddle gears or 915 5-speed, which has these ratios on some versions:

RP. 3,86

1. 3,18

2. 1.83

3. 1.26

4. 1.0

5. 0.82



If i build instead of berg 5, i would choose these ratios:

RP 3,875

1. 3,78

2. 2,06

3. 1,48

4. 1,14 or 1.04

5. 0,82

915 box seems to have quite long first three gears.

Oh, my car will not be cal-looker with 135R15 tires and drums, but more germanlooker with 2600+cc nickies engine ;D

If this is for a street car, consider a closer 2nd while you're at it.  That's because what you listed is the perfect spread between 1st and 2nd for a 4 speed.  The ideal spread for a 5 speed would have a lower 2nd.

Right now I have a 1.48/1.13 3rd/4th. in mine (with a .82 5th).  I hate the 4th.  Next time it's out, I'm putting in a 1.04.

old thread, figure it is better to continue here than to start a new one.

Does anyone know if any body or chassis cutting/knocking work is needed to fit the Berg 5 to a 67 Bug?

Though I wouldn't consider 67 to be very early as I read here that some early cars need some work. 

Yes thats needed , also had a berg 5 in my blue 67

I put a Berg 5 in my '63 notchback, unfortunately the project still isn't done thanks to having to purchase an new daily driver.  The instal was pretty simple and Gary Berg was a huge help as he was gracious enough to send me pictures of where he had to clearance torsion housings, body's etc. on his previous instals.  I thought this was awesome as he was not the builder of the gear box, Kevin of KCR was.  Another thing that helped me significantly was that Kevin sent me my empty center section with the 5 speed intermediate housing and nose cone so I could mock every thing up and not have to deal with the weight of an assembled trans and axles in my way.  If this can be an option for you from your builder I would highly recommend it.

Mike

I m in the progress installing 5 speed on notchback. Unfortunately I dont have any luxury of the gearbox dummy.
If you could post .  email / WA +62.812.2869664 pictures of your torsion housing and body clearance it would be big help.