The Cal-look Lounge

How much HP & Nm can Berg 5-speed trans safely handle, if i put all weddle gears including their r&p and mainshaft to  SSC late model case? All ready have quaife and donor transaxle. I know that there is no specific answer, but estimate. Little dragracing, but mostly street and some track driving in a distant future. 


250-260hp and 260+nm torque from 2600+cc N/A engine.

I have just had this gearbox built. weddle mainshaft, weddle 3.88 R&P extended by Bergs, Weddle gears (Weddle gears and R&P are actually Albins), SSC Zig Zag box and a quaife (bus splines) Weddle billet cover, M300 input shaft. This is on the back of a 2387 engine, 170 hp NA and 270 hp NOS. My builder, Dave Butler, says it should stand up to slicks in my Ghia. I'll let you know in a few months when the car is all back together. Dave also put a tapered roller to control forward movement of the pinion, and you should choose coarse gears, things to consider.

Okay, wery nice to know :)  Your car is probably for street and strip use? I planning to make car good on corners and maybe littlebit dragracing with semislick tires.

I think that SSC "zic zac" case is better than mag rhino case, only one big hole should make it a lot of stronger. I have quaife too with bus splines. I do have now bus coarse gears at this donor transmission, bought from udo. But i will put all weddle gears. To me, this feels better choice than buying 901 trans.

Bus 5 speed.

Bus transmission, not really option, because have allready donor and new quaife, also easiest to fit existing pan. With turbo engine 5-speed bus trans or better yet 915 would be good, but more work/money.

Im putting together a 2789cc Pauter street motor, It will be turbo'ed running low boost, 1 bar.  I am runing a 4 speed bus box, I think the wide spread of torque from the big cc engine + turbo, the 4 speed will be fine. The bus box gives me some piece of mind in the strength department. 

Yes, turbo cars really dont need close ratio boxes. Before 1989, if i remember correctly, 911 turbo did have 4-speed transaxle.  Boost should build up wery well if long ratios are used, aaoohh that pulling power then ;D

How much will the car weigh & do you plan on hooking it up on the dragstrip ?

Car will weigh about 850kg and some dragstrip testing, with 225/50R16" dragradials or semislicks perhaps. Mostly street and track

As many as you want as long as you take care of your clutch management as well.

If you drag race it, Make sure the suspension is loose & the clutch has a bit of give. You will break it if it hooks up dead... Ask Tim Sholl [58 vw] about t1 trannys with that much weight & power. He does'nt break them...he breaks them in half.   Re the response with 270 hp NOS motor.  When the clutch comes out in 1st it would probably be on the motor & would only be the 170 hp. Its sounds like this would be making 260hp at the hit & would be much harder on it.

Bill, correct 170 in first then the NOS controller brings it in gradually from 2nd on.

bill is right...broke it in half..almost killed me..anyway around 250hp asperated engine with alot of tourqe in a 1950lb car. if your not racing it you might be ok...but if you do plan on it you better just walk it out of the hole and not drop the hammer down..my two cents  ;D

If you just drive away at the start line it will be fine. If you put sticky tires and launch it in anger it will break. Might be 1 pass ,might be 20 passes, but its not a matter of if, but when. The 5spd is just as strong as the 4spd, the problem is when you break it ,the 5spd is much more expensive to fix. Both in money & waiting on parts from GBE. My car w/ 1900lbs & 214hp. is right on the edge of reliability of a t1 trans. After 2 or 3 5spd r/p's & totally destroying a ZF LSD, that pretty much cured me of wanting to drag race a 5spd.Your results may vary..

Bill nailed it. The t1 ring gear is just too small/weak to take that kind of abuse.

Part of the answer will be whether a Weddle (Albins) 3.88 will be tuffer than a German Klink or Gleason (I'm hoping so), and keeping them meshed.

This guy has also zig zag cased transaxle with all weddle gears and quaife, but engine over 450whp. So far it did last with street tires, uh, but then at strip  with slicks the case broke  ;D


http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=122882&start=45

(http://inlinethumb07.webshots.com/47046/2438463980053827958S500x500Q85.jpg)

If the weddle ring and pinion is made out of modern stronger metal alloy, it should be stronger.

ya looks familiar...mine did that and a little more...if your gonna cruise you should be ok...NO RACING!! ;D

Still, this case should be a lot stronger than old swingaxle cases :D

I have usually dropped the clutch at 3500-4000rpm. New clutch is kep 2 with copperhead dual friction plate.

How would work semislicks meant for street and track on a dragstrip? On  these sidewalls don't flex, and they have threads, but you can get soft compunds

Qualify using it all you want, if I use this or I do that, then it will be ok................it won't. If you drag race it you WILL BREAK IT!

X2 ... I've been lucky in the past but will likely get a 'spare' 4 speed for racing now.
TxT

Yeah, probably 915 transaxle would be better if NM & HP is over 260, if 5 speed is wanted.

To me this shows how incredibly STRONG this case is.
When a case splits, the crack almost always goes through the drain.  Here's proof VW fixed that weakness.
The gap on the sidecover side shows how strong the starter side of the case is.  It almost looks like it's still connected on that side.

What size ring gear T1 trans has? I have two sources, one says 6" and other 8".  

Whatever the size is, it's not in inches.

Are you thinking 6 or 8 BOLTS holding the ring gear to the diff carrier?

One option would be 915 box, i have one available, with magnesiumcase, its from 1974 model 911 with 2.4 or 2.7 engine. Should be a lot stronger than beetle transaxle.

It has wery similar ratios as the berg-5 what i was planning with 3,88 R&P  and  0,82 5th gear.  Also with bug@5-speed kit you ease installation a lot, which includes nosecone, mounts, etc.

The ratios are:

R&P: 4,43

1st 3,18

2nd 1,83

3rd 1,26

4th 0,96

5th 0,72

First gear is pretty tall...

If he's making the power & torque he claims, it'll push it ...

But the R&P makes it almost as same as beetle box with 3,88 R&P and 3,78 first gear. Engine doesnt make that power yet, its not assembled yet, only parts have been collected. What do you mean, it will push it? Can't 915 handle that power?

This topic is about a Berg 5 in a late SSC case.

Not about 915 transmissions.

Like I said before, you drag race it you WILL BREAK it! Ask ANY qualified transaxle builder, type 1 cases are not strong enough for a lot of HP with slicks on a tacky track. Gussets, girdles, whatever....the case is not strong enough period. Better yet, ask ANY FAST drag racer, and I'm sure he will show you a stack of broken type 1 cases and R/P's

It's his thread... ;)


It's a ways off from a 3.875 & 3.78- which is already tall. You would need to change out the 3.18 for a 3.64 with the 4.43 r&p to match the 3.88/3.78... And then that would of course mess with the rest of the gear ratios, you'd have to change them as well.

He means that you should be making enough power to overcome the tall first gear.

Yeah, it is my thread, so stop whining :D    And its not exactly about what R&P or 1th gear what is there inside, more means the  final ratio. 1st 3.18 gear  +  4.43 R&P is very close to 1st 3.78 + 3.88 R&P, where did you get the 3,64 first gear to match? I calculated the speeds with Glenn Rings calculator and with this calculator:

http://www.et-studios.com/motorsports/gears/gears.html

Calculate again and you see that early 915 box has very similar ratios as this planned berg-5, here are also speeds at  mph@4000rpm


Berg-5


R&P: 3,88

1st 3,78    20

2nd 2,06   39

3rd 1,48    52

4th 1,08   72

5th 0,82   95





Porsche 915/43


R&P: 4,43

1st 3,18    21

2nd 1,83   37

3rd 1,26   54

4th 0,96  71

5th 0,72  94



I have seen broken type 1 cases and R&P, thats not new to me  ;D  

3.875 x 3.78 = 14.6475

4.43 x 3.18 = 14.0874

4.43 x 3.31 = 14.6475

I made a slip on my math earlier. You'd need a 3.31 first with the 4.43 r&p to match the 3.875 x 3.78

Yeah, but it is pretty close overall.  Just too bad that 915 is not the fastest shifting transaxle, or as good as T1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHQ7oMOEj6M

Since this topic is in the street car section, your drag racing experience doesn't apply.

Besides, the pic posted above of the busted case shows it took 450hp to break it.  If you've got less hp than that........

Wonder how well would survive todays OEM transmissions with amount the torque that they are rated for by using SLICKS?    :) 

I chose and bought Berg-5 speed kit for bus box, Rancho is going to build me it.

I want quick acceleration through gears, but there is no point to make supershort 1-4 gears and then long 5 gear.

There isnt so much gears to choose for berg 5, so these three ratios i have been thinking:


Choice 1

R+P 4.13

1. 3.11= 28.28 km/h

2. 1.93 = 45.57 km/h

3. 1.3 = 67.66 km/h

4. 0.93 = 94.58 km/h

5. 0.77 = 114.23 km/h



Choice 2

R+P 4.13

1. 3.11 = 28.28 km/h

2. 1.93 = 45.57 km/h

3. 1.35 = 65.15 km/h

4. 1.04 = 84.57 km/h

5. 0.77 = 114.23 km/h



Choice 3

R+P 4.13

1. 2.90 = 30.33 km/h

2. 1.86 = 47.29 km/

3. 1.26 = 69.81 km/

4. 0.93 = 94.58 km/h

5. 0.77 = 114.23 km/h

With those ratios there will be no drag racing, just tire spin or bogging with your 300 hp. I wouldn't call that quick acceleration. Even with 4.57 final ratio the 3.11 1st is really tall, so why 4.13? For circuit racing I suppose you need even closer gears and probably much shorter 5th to get there. With so much effort thrown into your car, please do not make it a compromise.

Rancho recommended these ratios for my usage, which is mostly compromise between street and track and high topspeed. For dragracing these ratios are too long, i know.

But with 3.11 1st gear and 4.57 rp, its quite close to 3.78 1st gear  and 3.88 combination.  I have chosen now 3.11-1.86 mainshaft but the rest of the gears are not yet decided, they will be no superlow, but lower than stock 1303s 3-4 gear ratios and evenly spaced including 5th gear.


I could put 3-4-5 gears tightly together, like 1.48 - 1.14 - 0.89   but then would autobahn performance hurt. Or possibly leaving 5th as a long overdrive like Glenn Ring (3.88rp 3.78-2.06-1.58-1.21-0.82).