The Cal-look Lounge

I know the function of the pressure relief valve, but what is the role for the pressure control valve?  More specifically, what would the behavior be in the even the spring for the pressure control valve is not strong enough?

Anyone?

Had you referenced the Bentley Official Manual you would know this:

The pressure relief valve is forced down when oil is cold and thick due to increased pressure. This allows oil to go directly to the bearings from the pump bypassing the oil cooler to protect it from possible bursting.
The oil pressure control valve is forced down onto spring tension when the oil pressure rises above the point necessary to supply lubrication to the bearings allowing oil to be returned directly to the crankcase sump. It ensures that oil pressure will remani constant at the bearings regardless of engine speed ...
At 20.20mm loaded length, the loaded tension should be 7-8 1/2 lbs.
 ;)

TxT

Can't reference the bible from work...lol.  ;D  I have read that part of the Bentley manual, but my question is what would the symptom be of a weak control valve? My new 2017 is putting out 25 to 30 PSI on the gauge cold, and warming up it's less than 10 PSI (idiot light on at idle by this time)...I'm hoping it's a simple fix of control and/or pressure relief valves and not some strange gremlin inside.

I failed to get a mechanical gauge connected to my engine tonight, primarily becase of cheap, shoddy hardware, but the fact is this: the electric gauge in the car reads 25 PSI dead cold at idle and drops down as the engine warms up.  Once it's up to operating temperature, it's down low enough to trigger the oil idiot light.  The VDO two-pole sending unit says that it triggers the light at 6 PSI plus or minus 2.

Would using the wrong oil pump gasket cause this kind of problem?  I've got two in the shop in my stash but they both measure in at .104" thick.  I watched that on assembly, so I highly doubt that's what's wrong, but I'm just trying to troubleshoot.

Are you using a new case or used?
Standard or line bored?

This can occur when the plunger seats on the case are worn or damaged or the channels /plungers are worn or damaged. Also if the tolerances are 'loose' on a used or remanufactured engine case and/or, as you questioned, the springs are weak & out of tolerance.
Perhaps your easiest test, outside of a mechanical gauge, would be to replace the control valve spring with a new or higher tension spring? Pretty easy swap to see if theres a difference ...

Unfortunately, there may be no quick and permanent fix if the case has been improperly machined, only bandaids.

Likely it is your gauge that's way out.
I use the same two post sensor feeding a VDO gauge.  My gauge reads ZERO at idle when it's warm, but the light is not on.
I suggest you remove the gauge and put a stock oil pressure switch.  If it doesn't turn the light on at a hot idle, you're ok.

So true ... and even simpler!

It's built on a used case, and it has been line bored (.060").  I'm well aware I started with a less than ideal base, but it was what I had, and I had it inspected by professionals who said it should be fine for what I planned to do with it.   Getting to that control valve is going to be tricky, as it's partially obstructed by the Scat 1.5 QT sump, but I'll do what I have to do to get this figured out.

Once my head cools off a bit, I'll likely try again to get a mechanical gauge hooked up...I just have a hard time buying that with such little run time this thing is having oil pressure issues already, but perhaps the case has issues inside that I'm not aware of.

My light eventually comes on once the engine gets warm enough, and guessing by the sending unit, that could be anywhere from 6 to 8 PSI, as that's the tolerance indicated on the side. 

And the verdict is in... mechanical gauge verifies the accuracy of the electric gauge.  25 PSI cold and/or having barely idled for a minute or two at most, and only going to drop from there as it warms up.  Switched out the pressure relief valve with a stock-sized spring and different plunger (apparently the one I had in there that came with the case when I bought it was a longer booster spring) to no avail.  Couldn't get to the pressure control valve as the sump is in the way...but I doubt that's my issue anyway, after having read through the Bentley manual.  Awesome.

I would bet the case is a lost cause.

sorry to hear that hope you get it fixed and  don't loose fate.
remember that it only is a hobby .

If your pressure control valve is stuck slightly open you can get the problems you are having.
There is no chance you have swapped the pistons and springs?

I agree with JHU. My low mile German FI case had a increase in "warmed up" idle pressure by resurfacing the seating surface of the plunger at the bottom of the bore during a tear down. It holds around 9-10 LBS at 700 rpms now and used to get pretty low. I would think it is worth checking before tearing it apart.

The weird thing is not too long ago, while the engine was still on the Zalex test stand, the oil pressure through a mechanical gauge read 40 PSI cold and settled down to 15 PSI at warm operating temperature.  The only thing I've changed since putting the engine in the car, in hindsight, is the oil lines; I had rubber lines on the stand, and installed stainless lines (they're not kinked) once the engine went into the car.  I don't know what factor this could play, but highly doubt the stainless lines are too small in diameter.

I have the relief plunger tool from aircooled.net, so I suppose I could try to ream the passageway and see if that makes difference, but the fact that it had oil pressure at one time and all of a sudden started dropping down would indicate that the relief valve was working fine at one time before.

Whoa. I know you don't want to hear this, but that's "ok" for a stocker, but not for something that's putting out 3x the power. Just my two cents, sorry :(

That was my first instinct, but VW Paradise inspected it and I talked to Jason about it... he said it should be fine, though confirmed the case was getting close to the end of its life.  I've got just a couple things left to check before I throw in the towel and walk away from this thing for awhile... I remembered earlier this morning that I had rubber oil lines on the engine when it was on the stand, and switched to stainless lines once the engine went in the car.  That's the ONLY thing that's changed since the engine was on the stand, and perhaps its' not a factor, I don't know... but I'm prepared for this engine to be a big paperweight at this stage.

Check to oil pump hole in relation to the crankcase. If they don't line up that could also be the problem. Also, what type of oil are you using? Cheers Clarkey

That looked good on assembly, plus I would think it would have shown up immediately rather than later.  I'm running 15W-40 Delo oil with Lucas Zinc/ZDDP additive.

For clarification, I am NOT by any stretch making any kind of complaint against VW Paradise, not by a long shot.  This is one of those things that can't be predicted until it's all together, ultimately.  I only wanted to point out that the initial inspection/prognosis was that it should be fine, just in case there's any misunderstandings.  If I decide to tear it down and build on another case, they will have my business again for the machine work.
My dad had his 'h' case in his '68 rebuilt again and again until the head studs finally started to pull on the most recent rebuild; not sure what the line bore was at on it at that point, though. 

do you have the thick oil pump gasket between cover and oil pump?

I'm 99 percent sure I don't, as I was consciously thinking about that during assembly... do you know the thickness of the two gaskets, by any chance, JIm?  I've got a couple gaskets sitting around leftover from my gasket kit that measure .104" in thickness... just curious what the difference in thickness is between the two different ones (case to pump and pump to cover).

dude- .104" thick is like a head washer. Check it, you should have the (very) thin gasket there. Check drive gear in pump while you're in there.


Did you plug pump and case too?

Will check again, I may have mismeasured when I checked the other night, or I may be thinking of something unrelated; its' a busy deadline day today, lol.  I'm fairly sure I have it correct, but will check it out. 

And yeah, both the case and pump were plugged for full flow.

Do you put that plug here?

(http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/408/oilpumpplug.jpg)

Yep!

I've also noticed that the fitting for the full flow on the case acts like a plug on the top of this oil galley (on my case, since I've shortened the case at this place for cleareance with the pulley and pulley tin).
Would you still plug on the pump side?

(https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/252654_2114049687847_1143828126_2605697_4234001_n.jpg)

Yes, sir, been there, done that! ;D

You must mean .004" for the pump gasket...

I think you are correct... I was pissy the other night and my eyes likely dilated...;D

.104mm = .004"
 ;)

Or there's that...lol.  That factor completely escaped me, so I was half right... just had the increment wrong.  Ha ha ;D

This reminds me of my first big motor ... 2110 with a cast crank and real porsche rods, W125, the first coming of my Fumio heads when they were 40X35 & nonwelded, and 40DCNFs.
Case was purchased used but rebuilt (and align bored) by a Major machine shop in the industry.
At operating temperature, which is most often much warmer than any test stand can induce (no load!), it suffered from low pressure ... light would flicker or just glow.
I "fixed" ( ;)) the problem by installing a Melling oil pump ... I think that thing could drain the great lakes in a short period of time given the proper intake hose!
This was at least 20 years ago ... make that 25 ...
Eventually and FINALLY when I replaced the case the symtoms disappeared ... along with the Melling.
Never had a problem since!
Live and learn ... turns out, some things you just can't get away from ... "Buy the best and cry once", heard that somewhere before ... hmmmmm

Oh I'm a firm believer in buying new whenever possible, but $700 for a new case wasn't viable for me two years ago when I started collecting parts, and it definitely isn't viable now.  I'm hoping at worst case I have to use another case I have in the shop that will have to be bored and stroked, full flowed, yada yada yada... and even there it's a stretch that I can afford to do that. 

Another evening of work confirming things that did no good... pump gasket was correct, installed a new one.  Oil pressure relief valve definitely not sticking and the bore/mating surface up in there looked good.  unbolted the filter from the fenderwell to see if maybe one of the stainless hoses is kinked (its not, just made sure).  No changes whatsoever.

My thought is leaning toward trying a larger oil pump.  Yes, I know it's a bandaid fix, but this isn't exactly an engine I expect to get even 50,000 miles out of let alone 100,000 (I'll go bigger well before either of those figures, I'm guessing, lol), so I'm wondering if this would be a temporary fix until I can get another case prepared?

This thread has got me thinking of line boring.
I know that the general consensus and Gene Berg says not to do it. My question now is why? Say you had a brand new case, but the was a issue with the main bearing saddles, if you "fixed" this by going to first oversize, would this case have problems? Or if you wanted to use a type4 main bearing in the middle, would that compromise a new case? Low oil pressure?

Or could it be that old heavily used cases (beat up) have a lot of hidden issues, that the line boring couldn't fix. Meaning it's not the line boring that is the bad guy here... I mean how could it possibly be? With the correct size and the right amount of bearing crush... where do the VW magic escape?  :)

Just raising a question...

 

I bet a bigger pump will get you farther than you think, probably until you have the funds to upgrade.

JHU- Last year, when Gary Berg was living here, I asked him those questions. Back in the day there were a lot of guys doing their own align boring with poor equipment and techniques, this was to avoid that. Also he said, new cases were very CHEAP, and they were trying to sell more. There is nothing wrong with a properly done align bore job, but a new case is always going to be better.

Bigger pump? Got me down the road for several years, until I had the funds & made the choice to buy new.
I don't see anything wrong with working with what you have on hand.

Good to know... this case, I have no idea of its history.  Its last use was a 1776 in a sandrail or Baja (something sand oriented) and the engine came apart after a rocker arm shaft clip came off and went through the motor.  The case itself itsn't cracked or visibly damaged in any way, just been gone through a number of times on the align boring, apparently.  I think for now I'm going to take the bigger (30mm) pump route as a temporary measure so I can get some resources in order to get another case prepped.  I have a case in the shop right now, a 1600 out of a Type 3, that I plan to tear down and take a look at.  It came out of a buddy's baja as the flywheel was fouled up (came loose, dowel pin holes elongated) but looks fine.  No external cracks that I can see, but a good thorough inspection is needed, of course.
Just out of curiosity, how do you measure oil pump gear sizes? is it the width of the gear looking at it from the rear of the car or is it the depth of the gear as it sits inside the pump housing (tooth overall length)?

Depth into the pump housing ...

Gotcha, something I've always wanted to know, thanks! ;D

Just for a try... Unnconect the stainless lines and make a small rubber hose pump OUT to case IN.Or maybe the one you were using on the stand?
And what do you mean by too small in diameter?

If the lines are long & thin, and you have other flow restricted elements in our "car oil system", that will affect pressure in the case.
Remeber the pump does not make a pressure, the pressure is an affect of the restrict in the case.
But if the flow is restricted at the way to the case, the pressure is higher near the pump and lower in the case.

Always blue print the axial play of every oil pump. If you don`t want to drive at -20° make the axial play tight.
For me the easiest way to do that is to mount the pump together outside the case with the gasket and cover you want to use.
Grind down the pumpcase on a flat glass (mount,check,disassemble---again...) until you can feel just a minimal axial play of the driveshaft.
Remember that the pumpcase (aluminum) grows way more under heat that the pump gear (sinter-steel) so that the axial play grows when the case/pump heat goes up.
Too much axial play affects the oil flow highly. Then you have an internal leckage in the pump...Same thing with to much head play of the gear to the pumpcase.

Ryan, I have an extra brand new Berg blueprinted 30mm Shadek. It's hard anodized, o-ringed and plugged for full flow. I mocked it up on my 2165 but went to a 26mm pump. I'll give you a good deal on it.

Same as this one:
http://www.geneberg.com/product_info.php?cPath=5_121_2738&products_id=405

I have a line on a pump already, but I'll let you know, John!  Thanks for thinking of me!  I've got one more little thing to check requiring my sump be removed before I delve into a bigger pump, but will keep you posted.

Well, went through both relief valves today... removed the sump so I could get to the flywheel oil pressure control valve, actually resurfaced the seating surface for the valve with the reamer I got from aircooled.net a few years ago, cleaned up the sump, put everything back together, filled it with oil, fired her up and... zero change.

I'm taking a break to get a bite to eat and let the car cool before trying to bypass the oil filter, but I have serious doubts that will make a lick of difference.  I hedged my bets on the oil pressure control valve either sticking open or the spring being too weak, but nothing's changed.

Can it change something if you replace the springs?  ???
Do you have an oil pump cover with pressure relief valve?

I have no idea... I just came from the shop, bypassing the filter did nothing to affect oil pressure, either.

As for the oil pump cover, it's a bugpack billet aluminum one, no pressure relief valve.  I had one on my last engine and while I had no issues with it per say, I also didn't see any particular benefits from it to make it a worthwhile investment (I never drive this car when it's extremely cold out, only in warmer weather). 

Other points to make: PSI still at 25 at dead cold, warming up.  Steadily dropped down to 5 to 10 PSI as the engine got warmer, and at last check it was right on 5 PSI at the gauge before I shut the engine off.  Revving the engine, oil pressure rose to 35 to 40 PSI, but never went any higher as I increased revs.  Don't have a functional tach, so I can't report on what max RPMs I brought the engine to.

Oil is 15W-40 Delo with Lucas ZDDP additive.

what's the tension @ loaded height on flywheel side sping in your motor?

Why don't you just use the tried and tested 20W50 oil with the right amount of ZDDP already in it? (there are several choices today for oils with the correct amount)
Or even better: 15W50 if yu can find that near you.
Definately will keep better oil pressure hot.

I went with what I did because of availability.. .I live in the middle of BFE where anything even remotely specialty (like Brad Penn oil, for instance, among others) isn't heard of, let alone available. I had to special order the Lucas additive as it was at $14 per bottle.

Jim, I have no idea what the loaded tension on the spring is, I don't have a spring tester available to me... again, largely due to where I live.

Ryan let me see if I have a good known front spring and I will send one to you. If yours is "soft" it can affect oil pressure.

I know the installed length is correct, from what measurements i took, but that's about all I know. I did notice that the plug installed without a whole lot of tension versus the rear plug? It was that way with two different springs I tried, though.

Mine was the same way. Using all original parts.

as you bypassed the filter did you still use the stainless lines?

Pull the oil pump and see what`s going on in there, maybe the gear is loose on the shaft or the gears melted into the pump housing.

You are using the orig. regulator piston,or?
The aftermarket one`s are scrap as they are way to little in diameter...

I did not use the stainless line for the bypass, I used one of the rubber lines that was on the engine when it was on the test stand.  OIl lines are not going to make a difference at this point, I have determined this from my tests thus far.  I did check the gears when I changed out the pump cover gasket, all looked fine in there.
Yes, original pressure relief pistons.

30mm oil pump and oil booster kit have been ordered, should arrive sometime this week... will try these things one at a time to see if a change is made. I'm pretty sure my pump's not sucking air on the suction side, as it was a nice snug fit in the case, not loosey goosey... though I haven't made a formal measurement as of yet.

If it can suck air, it will only suck air... in my experience.

I am having the same problem on my motor...
the oil pressure in the previous form of my motor was about 0.5 bar hot idle ant went to 3 bar max when rpms increased...
All parts looked OK during teardown, so i didnt think it could be a problem... but then i hear about pressures of 3 to 6 bars....
Now i installed a turbo so an oil pressure of 0.5 bar or less isnt really good for the turbo...
I installed a adjustable booster kit, but when increasing spring pressure, oil pressure dropped! (i installed the adjuster beneath the long spring, pulley side)
I used aftermarket plunjers, and original springs from the beginning. Original plunjers are too big for the holes in the case, so they dont fit...
I will try to use the springs from the booster kit next (stiffer springs)

What puzzles me is how can the pressure drop when you increase tension of the big spring?
I also swapped the grooved plunjer for a non grooved (is this OK??)

And Also: Isnt the big spring and plunjer only effective for a hot motor? I would guess its better to mount the adjuster beneath the short spring (flywheel side), because this side is ultimately responsible for oil pressure , correct?

A few other items to think about..

The adjuster is suppose to go at the flywheel end on a dual relief case.  I know because I have one.  Be careful.  I adjusted mine and extra turn or so and blew out an oil cooler.

thanks donny ;)
maybe you can install one too, bugnut?
i ll report the changes ;)

I'll see where I'm at once I get my parts this week... I may try the pump first, see what that does, and, if necessary, install the booster springs. We'll see what happens, I guess!

Any news?

Not really, aside from I got the oil pressure booster spring kit from Vee Dubs Parts last week... time-sert tool arrived from aircooled.net today so I can fix my oil pressure sending unit hole threads, and I'm still awaiting the oil pump, which should be here in the next day or two.

Aside from that, I haven't touched the car in over a week, and I could not be happier.  We'll see what happens this week.  If I have unsuitable results after installing the aforementioned parts (I'll likely do the pump first), then it's time to walk away from this project until I feel like (and have resources available $$$) going any further.  The past week has been a lovely and very relaxing break from oil streaming down my arms and my mouth spewing every curse word known to man...;D

Oil pump arrived today... should know sometime this week if my problems are abated for the moment or if a fire sale of VW parts is forthcoming...;D  Only kidding, of course, but getting away from the car/engine project for the last week has been very relaxing and pleasant... evenings on the front lawn with a cold Coke or beer and reading Jack Kerouac's "On the Road."  Good times.

Hope you'll have even more good times driving your car with a hot engine!

Yeah, me too!  I've driven the car down the road out of the shop just a smidge, but it really didn't count, as I didn't getout of second gear and the gas pedal kept hanging up...had some throttle linkage issues as well.  All that is resolved now, so hopefully soon we'll see how things will go. ;D

Brand new 30mm Schadeck oil pump got me a whopping 5 extra PSI of pressure.  25 PSI cold.  Sweet.  That was certainly $40 well spent.

i tried with the boost adjuster in the correct place now (at flywheel end) with original spring...
screw completely turned in, but almost 0 pressure when oil is hot...
might try with 20w50 and see if it makes a difference..and install the stiffer spring from the aftermarket kit..
I noticed that the aftermarket plungers are sitting a bit loose in the case, but originals are to big...
maybe these are causing some problems as well?

This should be your problem. Why not sand the originals down carefully?
Did you have this issue last season as well?

Yeah,
i might try that...
at the time also quite low pressure (0.5 bar hot idle and 3 bar max at higher rpm), but now i have the turbo ...

At this stage, I'm going to have to just accept the fact that this engine has major issues and has to come apart. I absolutely have no desire to put one more cent into what I have (even for motor oil) out of utter and complete frustration.  Until I have the desire and motivation to further pursue this (most likely with another/better case), I'm walking away for the time being.

I figure why bother wasting time helicoiling the pump stud threads and time-serting the pressure sending unit threads in the case when I'm going to likely need another/better case anyway.  If I have to tear it down again, I'm going to just start over with a better foundation.

Think I may have located a problem... anybody know how much clearance/room there should be between the sump extension tube for a 1.5 deep sump (Scat is my brand) and the drain plate?  It appears I have a mighty tight bit of space here, which leads me to believe I could have an inlet restriction as a result.

Is the pick up tube not cut at an angle on the bottom?

An absolute minimum would be one diameter.  1.5 diameters would be better.

Then I need to shorten it for sure... it's simply way too close to the drain plate from my eye.  Can't believe I didn't account for this earlier.  It may not change anything, but then again, who knows?  Anything's worth a shot at this point. 

No change whatsoever.  The pressure rises fine with RPMs, but still isn't where it should be at idle.  25 PSI dead cold, and the cheap mechanical gauge I have had it dropping down to 10 PSI on the scale as it got warmed up/hotter... looked like the needle was resting on the peg when I came back from a drive up and down the entrance road to my buddy's shop, but since the first increment is 10PSI, I have no idea just how low it actually was.  I will likely try to buy a mechanical gauge to verify where the idle pressure is resting at as the engine warms up.

What happened when you put the stock pressure switch in?  Does the light come on at idle when warm?

I can't install a stock pressure switch... the case, as I acquired it, had already had a 1/8-NPT VDO dual pole sending unit so now the hole is too big... the threads are messed up too, so I have a bit of a leak there... but nowhere near enough to cause a 15-plus pound drop in oil pressure.

Put it somewhere else maybe? I'd like to see what the stock switch does. If the light doesn't come on at a hot idle, don't worry about it!

Maybe you can try to put the stock switch with a VDO "T", or try to put a VDO pressure sender that has the switch for the light and another switch for a gauge.

I've got the dual-pole sending unit for the VDO gauge and the stock light... I installed a mechanical gauge to initially confirm the low readings I was getting, but it's my understanding these VDO dual pole senders can trigger the idiot light at a higher level than the stock sending unit (2.1 to 6.4 PSI is the range from what I remember reading in the Bentley manual for stock sending units).

This is what my engine has been like for the last 70k miles.  IOW, you don't have a problem.
Who else agrees with me?

I've got a mechanical gauge i just picked up last night with a more detailed scale in terms of increments, so I'm hoping to confirm just exactly what my pressure is... the cheapie Equus or SunPro, whatever it is, mechanical gauge I've been using has a mighty vague scale with broad increments.

Just checked last night with the new mechanical gauge... pressure stayed steady at right around 10 PSI or a hair under after warming up... it only dropped below that to 7, 6 and down to 5 when the idle started to drop off.  Pressure comes up real nicely with increased revs, but the idle started to drop down after idling steadling for upwards of 10 minutes.

As long as you don't get into bumper to bumper Lakeview, Oregon traffic  ;D , I'd run it until you can get another case.

He doesn't need another engine case because there's absolutely nothing wrong with what he has.

Yup, if I have to ever stop for a cattle drive, I might get into trouble. ;D  Lol.  This car will at best be tooling around town on occasion or else primarily hitting our 1/8 mile strip, so I'm prepared to run what I gots for now. 

I figure I'll try the other oil pump for giggles since it's not that hard to swap out, and I have the parts... figure can't hurt anything.

Please- try a stock VW brand oil pressure sensor hooked up to the stock VW idiot light. Do whatever you have to do to try it, then report back to us.

You haven't put the bigger pump in yet?! Do it already!

Well, not exactly... I installed  30mm Schadeck pump to find no change... next step is the cast iron one Jason L from VW Paradise sent my way.  I woulda done it last night but had to work! Dang evening meetings...;D  Likely heading out there again this evening.  I considered Wednesday night's session with the better mechanical gauge a success, as I at least know my oil pressure isn't starvingly low, so the engine is indeed operable.

Put that new pump and start having fun!  ;D

I'm more than ready for that last part! ;D  Lol. 

Dude, just drive the thing. Worm has had the same problem since he bought the car. As long as the oil's moving you'll be alright, put an external cooler with a fan on it. It might runner a few degrees hotter than another engine, but whose to say the next one wont do the same thing.

That's where I'm at, pretty much.  It's not like I really built this thing to be a highway hauler or 100K motor by any stretch.  My goal is to fix a few leaks this weekend and finalize a few other details on the car before starting to put some miles on it.

Annnnnnnnnd....... seized.  Apparently.  Awesome.

Swapped out the Schadeck 30mm pump for a Melling/cast iron pump (snug ass fit compared to the Schadecks, let me tell you what) today, and took the time to helicoil the four pump stud holes in the case as at least two were stripped.  I wound up helicoiling them all for the hell of it since I was in there.  Put everything back together, tried to fire it up and the starter clicks dully like one that cannot turn over a locked up sumbitching engine.  Tried to turn it over by hand and only the crank pulley bolt turns; it ain't going anywhere.  Tried to push it to see if the starter was locked up (before trying to turn it over by hand) and no dice.  the car bounced but it would kick the engine over.

Must be a spun bearing in there, somehow, someway... don't know how it would have happened since the mains were all properly indexed (I'm very meticulous with these details during assembly, knowing I don't want to go back in there anytime soon after).  Everything was fine in short block stage, still fine as the top end came together... but this would explain the low oil pressure if a bearing twisted somehow and blocked off oil flow.

Great weekend so far, all in all.  Prior to working on the car I got word that my grandfather's health is rapidly declining (Alzheimers and lung cancer), so I'm heading over there tomorrow after covering a Sept. 11 memorial put on early in the morning by our local Veterans of Foreign Wars office.

Since you changed the pump I'd be willing to bet you have zero pump to cam bolt clearance and that's why the engine isn't turning over.

No way.  A bearing spins when the engine is running, and the engine loudly tells you it happens.
Something is wrong with the pump like Zach said.

I'm sure you guys are right... my head's in two other places right now, in family crisis mode and all, so I'm not necessarily thinking terribly logically.

Hang in there buddy.

Yeah, it's hard but I'm trying... my grandfather's not doing so well right now, hospice is now involved and things are getting pretty bad.  Went to go visit him yesterday, and I'm glad I did as it's hard to say how much time he's got left, but I sure hope he doesn't suffer. 

x2  ;)

   X3    family is priority #1       KG

Just got a  call from my mom last night, sounds like my grandfather is rapidly deteriorating.... hospice guesstimates 1 to 4 weeks left at this point. As strong as my grandfather was a for most of his life, I'm floored that this is what it's all come down to, ultimately.

It gets us all... when I go I hope hospice has nothing to do with it! I hope he's without pain. I lost my grand dad last October, I was thinking the same thing.

There's always been a VW in my family one way or the other... my grandfolks had a '55 Oval with semaphores they bought from my Dad way back when...lol.

It isn't easy either way... last night's foray into the shop was unsuccessful. Broke a pulley puller trying to get my pulley off and the rest of the night was spent trying to fix the tool.

Some progress being made... managed to get the pulley off and the cast iron pump is starting to come out after last night's efforts in the shop.  I've all but killed my poor three engine builds-old oil pump puller in trying to get the pump out... she's a stubborn one.

   Try loosening the case bolts above and below the oil pump opening, this eases the clamping force of the case on the oil pump , making the removal and installation of the oil pump easier....   just my experience         KG

Already did that... grandpa passed this weekend so it'll likely be a bit before I can get to it again.

I'm sorry to hear that :(

Sorry to hear that too Ryan.

Yeah, it's rough.  Funeral service is on Wednesday, I may try to head out to the shop tonight for a little bit, see if I can get the pump all the way out... it's my buddy's shop and I don't want the car to be in his way.  The loss in the family is all the more realized when you get together and visit with other relatives, as I did this past weekend.  I can only imagine how my grandma must feel after nearly 65 years of living with the same person.

    I'm sorry for you and you're family's loss, working on your car at a time like this is a healthy distraction from everything else going on, it has always worked for me.   Ask you're grandma how shes feeling , coming from her grandson, I'm sure she will take it as a sign of interest and love, I'm sure.             

Sorry to hear of your grandfather's passing.

Thanks, all, it's truly appreciated.  My grandma has plenty of family around her right now.  I was over there for the weekend visiting and will be going back for the funeral this week.  I anticipate it will be a crowded house; he was a good man for sure.

I'll likely get out to the shop this week sometime... think I'm going to have to order a new puller tool, as my old one is all "taco'd" out... the pump is about 1/3 or 1/2 way out, but its a real tight fit, so I just have to keep at it.

pm your address, I'll send one up

Sorry to hear about your grandpa Ryan.

Warm up the case around the pump with a heat gun.  The iron pump won't expand as much as the case, allowing you to simply pull it out with your hand (in a glove).

Thanks, Bruce, I'll give it a whirl.  I know Harbor Freight sells heat guns, but I'm guessing a hair dryer would do the trick as well?

I don't think a hair dryer will cut it.

Okie dokie, figured it was worth a shot... I think I can probably find something at one of the local hardware stores.

It will actually come in quite handy for a lot of things. Like heat shrinking wires, for example. It's a good tool to have.

Yeah, that's something I've been wanting to do for some time... my gauges in particular... can't stand all the loose wires. Lol.

I think Harbor Freight has them for under $10.

Found one locally for $25, think it's a DeWalt brand.  Two settings, 750 degrees and 1000 degrees.

Pump is now out, and suitably clearanced... gotta repair the helicoil fix I did before, as I think my difficulties in getting the pump out was in the studs themselves...so far I know the engine turns over with the pump installed, which is a good thing, but need to place a new parts order as I destroyed the gasket getting the pump out.  I need a few other parts for a 1600 that's going back together soon, so a parts order is in the works.

Re-helicoiled the pump stud holes today, got everything back together and the upper right corner of the cast iron pump broke off... it appears the helicoil pulled out of the case, too.
So that's all she wrote, I reckon.  I'm done screwing around chasing my tail.
I will say that I learned a vital lesson with the importance of starting with a very sound base to begin with, which apparently I did not, if not for the line bore factor than certainly by the fact this case is 40 years old and has been around the block tons.

Sorry to hear that dude :( Give it a rest for a bit, come back to it when you're ready. You'll get it!

I could be wrong but when helicoils pull out that's a pretty bad sign for me....only real solution is  a brand new block, and if a guys' going to do that, he may as well go to 94's, yada yada yada... it's just getting to be too much for me.  The dollar signs have more appeal than what this engine will wind up being when it's all said and done.

You don't have to upgrade to 94's, etc, etc. When money permits, get new main bearings, a case, and have it machined. When you've got the time, pull it apart and swap the goods to the new case. It will go a LOT faster/easier this time around.

Sh*t  :-\ I hope you'll find a way to fix or replace that and keep on building your engine.

This case is getting junked... I'm just absolutely through trying to make it work, and sadly, that's just how it is in life sometimes, you have to exhaust every last option before you say enough is enough.  Likewise,  a guy has to sometimes settle for being a spectator rather than a participant when it isn't practical to continue financially speaking. 


I'm by no means embittered toward VWs, just done with them until I'm in a better position to do it up right with a new block, etc.