The Cal-look Lounge

was wondering what s the difference beside clearance issues ?

something to do with torque and power bands.  John maher gave a very detailed reply in the racing section a while back.

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,8136.msg124195.html#msg124195

Basically longer runners make the power down lower in the RPM range and shorter runners make the power at higher RPMs.

... and short manifolds are a BITCH to do plugs ...
UNLESS you either pull the engine or take the fenders off and cut out the fenderwells.
BUT, they LOOK cool. ;)
TxT

.... but way easier to fit air cleaners.

Air Cleaners?? We don't need no stinkin' AIR CLEANERS!  ;D  ;D

I don't think I've ever pulled all 4 plugs with the carbs still on the motor even with tall manifolds.

No trimming of the body or deck lid is necessary. 
But good luck on the plugs. Dyno the motor before installation.  You only wan to do it once.

If you relocate the spark plugs you can get them out :-)
Vee dub parts has some nice short ida manifolds ...
Udo

   I have had both deanos and skat traks, and with the right combination of ratchets, extentions, plug sockets etc. I never found it all that difficult, I must say a bench grinder and a little common sense used to alter your tools is a considerable help, if you are using the big velocity stacks, removing #1&3 would help also....  no holes in the wheel wells.         KG           

  Same here.  I took a Craftsman socket and chucked it in the lathe to make it a thin wall, super short socket.  Works great.
It's not much effort to pull the carb and manifold when you need to change your plugs.  Trying to do it under the car through holes with the manifold in the way seems to me like trying to have sex with your pants on.

I pull my carbs to change plugs. 5min off - 10min on. I use a 1/4" ratchet, 10" extender, and 10mm pipe connected to a swivel.

Well put!  It's easy to modify a socket... use a Craftsman as it's broached the full length.  Chuck it up in a lathe and knock off 10mm or so, then use a bench grinder on the other end.  A wobbly style extension works best.

Gary Berg taught me the wobbly extension is the secret to plugs/manifolds. Works a treat ;)

    Looks like Sarge got into my toolbox!!! :o :o :D         

while on the subject of manifolds, is there a benefit in performance or use to flip the carbs. like on the gene berg manifolds you can either set them up with the fuel-inlet either in or out? why is this done?

Depends on the linkage you want to use.  Center pull, or cross bar.

I have often wondered this. Of course there would be no difference in flow at WOT (but how often are you at WOT on a street car anyway?).  Are there differences in flow at partial throttle, depending on which side of the manifold the throttle plate opens? It would be an easy test on a flow bench with a pair of Berg manifolds.

udo becker manifolds could be used too  ;)

Look at the way the throttle shafts work.  If you orient IDAs with the fuel inlet to the inside, you're using cross bar linkage.  Flip them around, you need to use center pull linkage.

      Bergs  linkage works both ways. 

yes the linkage can determine how they are set up, but i like to use a centerpull and have used it on the 'normal' (inlet inside) as well. in case of the IDF manifolds you have to. so i don't really see the advantage of casting a totally different manifold just because of the linkage. and like So.Cal.Life said, Bergs work both ways and it is them (as Udo) that have a manifold that can use the carbs flipped.
So i am sure there must be another reason.

True, but it doesn't work very well when the fuel inlets are away from the fan shroud.

Seemed like back in the day (late '60's early '70's), most guys ran short manifolds and they ran them with a Berg linkage no problem.  I was a hack back then, more interested in getting on the street then in spending time setting things up properly.  Looking at my pic closely, I needed to take some extra time getting the fan shroud to fit better allowing the linkage to work better (note the left rod is screwed way in the right way out).  Back then, I never gave stuff like that much thought... :-[

      Back in those days the only tall manifolds I knew of were Empi's and people used their cross bar linkage as a package deal, the shorts were Deano and Bergs and both had fuel inlets away from the fan shroud , most everyone used Berg linkage, I don't remember anyone having any problems, myself included, I do remember complaints with Deano linkage because the rods were not equal length causing the carbs to open at different rates , between idle and full throttle, surging at cruising speed, etc.      KG

while at it...mechanic fuel pump is working well enough for the IDA??or would you recommand electric pump with regulator?it is for a 1776 mild engine...

I have run stock fuel pumps all my life (a LONG time) with 48IDA's and had no problems.  Dare to be different. ;)

or stick with what works in the first place  ;D

I'll 2nd what Sarge said. Ran my 1776 with a mechanical pump and it was a few steps above "mild"

I concur.

I ran 12s with a stock pump.
Makes you wonder about all those "experts" running ½" fuel lines and big hundred gph pumps.

Same here, high 12's with IDA's and stock fuel lines and OEM mechanical pump.

   Same here, a" genuine german VW" pump, on my 84X90.5, engle w125, 42X37.5, 48s etc. had no issues. However, when I sold my car to Keith Sueme, I had just reassembled it using an as21 f.i. case, (no pump provision) just to run and drive it I used a facet and found it was not enough to keep up ,   F.Y.I.   Hope this info. helps.           

keith just for you  ;D ;D ;D ;D..... ;)
fabs

     Thanks, Fabs, do you know who took the pic? I dont, I do know its bug in 16, as I remember setting it on T.D.C.look closely .Trivia question: do you know what kind of pulley this is? I still have it,  also if you look closely at the linkage end castings, I took a night class on sand casting at Western H.S. in order to make them,  I still have a pair or two someplace, also made the rest of the linkage. The manifolds where some of the first skat traks, witch were less then an inch shorter than the later ones, as you can see in the pic. I did not have to trim #2 velocity stack, it did however just "touch" the deck lid due to road vibration etc. as you can see in the pic. so I eventually just "touched it" to the belt sander. Good memories, good times, thanks Fabs,       

Nice story, Keith! 8)

thx keith   ;) , and i don't have any idea about the guy who took the picture

 ;)
fabs

If you find them, you must post a pic!

Some people are still doing it nowadays. :)

DDS manifolds with 48IDA, with a BERG linkage. This reverses the carbs but with a bit of adjustment and messing around with carb arms, it all works fine. I also just like the way it looks. :)

I did try a DDS centre linkage with it, but it caught on the MSD dizzy.

Dude  8)

(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k228/deanodynosaurs/58%20Resto/EngineInstalled05.jpg)

The Russ Welch split runs short manifolds with 48 IDA on it's 2165. From what I know about the engine in the car, it's very similar to the engine in my car, same CC, same camshaft around same compression, heads are different, but probably work in same range. I've driven the car, helping Dave Galassi one day. Though in specification, the engines are similar, there is a night and day difference in how the spit runs vs my '67. The split window is harder edged and much cammier, and comes on later, but when it does, hold on tight. The rumbly, gargly intake growl instantly changes at X rpm to this sonic howl of resonance and you better be ready to shift.
Also, that car runs fuel banjos opposite of fan housing (carb levers open outwards and down) and runs an OLD Gene Berg fan mount linkage and it works very very well. I was impressed with how precisely and crisply the carbs opened.

If I could figure out how to run a Thing shroud with short IDA Weber manifolds, they'd be on my car.

No , i think short and thing shroud can not work. They are too short to come out to the side  :)

Udo

Did it.
Scat short manifolds that orient the carbs with the fuel inlet to the outside, Bugpack centerpull linkage, stock VW Industrial DH shroud (same as Thing).
IIRC, I had to file a small notch in the seam of the shroud on the right side above #1 spark plug to clear the idle mix screw.

Good morning Bruce :)

I don't suppose you have any pictures showing this set up do you? Curious to see how it all fits together.... 8)

Were they Scat DW-2's?

Martin.

Indeed.

Pics can be arranged. My 48s are attached to the manifolds in a box.  The Dellortos on the engine have to come off, so bolting the 48s on is easy.

Short manifolds with my 1975 FI shroud and Italian IDAs:

(http://i62.tinypic.com/2uj593m.jpg)

I've got a pair of Scat DW-2's with IDA's and a Deano centre pull linkage with a Puma low profile doghouse freshair shroud, to go on the next version of my engine, trying to picture it all together is making my head go funny.... :D

What kind of plug wires would those be on the distributor side, or is it just a heat shrink over the wires? — sorry the picture didn’t follow the quote, it’s the photo of the goss chop’s engine from the big-in

Those are original type 4.  Much like the type 3 factory plug wire ends, the type 4's screwed into the wire and stayed short to the distributor cap, not allowing the plug wires/ends to short out on the foil bottom of the engine lid. They were opaque, long and had a black sealing ring.   

Thanks Dave, seems like something easy to find haha

Here's my 2¢

I use NGK BPC6ES which have a 5/8 head vs the standard 13/16. Also cut the intake studs short, they just need to be longer than the nut.

(http://www.glenn-ring.com/engine2/images/IMG_4782.jpg)

I run tall manifolds because I had them...

(http://www.glenn-ring.com/pemp/2180_3.jpg)

I also cut, years ago, 1.5" holes in the fender well to access #1 and #3 spark plugs.

(http://glenn-ring.com/brakes/IMG_3017.jpg)