The Cal-look Lounge

Hi guys,

Have all my longblock parts now, except for the cam. I'm really stuck with what to do to be honest and would like some tried and tested suggestions please:)

Brief spec
Ali case
CB 82mm Crank
Scat 5.5 H Beams
Mahle 90.5 Forged pistons
CB 044 42x37.5 with ports reworked to 'wedge' shape
Will run IDA's!

I have a 2276 with FK87 that's in my all steel oval and has gone 11.94 1/4 mile. I love the cam on the street so have thought about going the same cam, but here's my issues with that....
Would like to try something else!!
Worry an FK 8 would be too weedy/bore me!!
Gearbox will have stockish gearing, not close as I want it to be very streetable....

I'm wanting 170 ish horsepower as well!

Please don't suggest a jpm raptor cam, I have a wife, 8 month old son and a mortgage, just can't afford it!!

Lee

Mark Herbert recommended the FK-10 with stock gears, but I've never tried it! Fk-4x series are supposed to be good too.

Lee get a jpm raptor cam :P :D

I know it not that funny. ;D

Thanks Neil, and Martin ::)

Had considered a FK46 when I saw Martin yesterday, but lack of close ratio gears means it's a no no!!
FK10 is what Ivan is using in his White 67 isn't it?

Lee

Hey Lee

I think you should go with the K8.

It's going to a street car for you and the family, just think F10 is going to be to much for what you want from it. :)

I know mate, when you said that to me yesterday, I think yeah that's the one to have, then I think I still want the 'family wagen' to scare me as well!!

FK8 is winning, and you owe me one of those Martin ;D

I'd put a Web-Cam-86b in it personally , sort of inbetween FK 8 and 10 , go with 9.5 to 1 compression , it will be a great all rounder .

Ok still put the K8 in it, put the CR to 8.0 and get ROCKET RON turbo kit he has for sale.

That would be your family scare wagen. :P

Lee

i had k8 in the white bug when you rode in it last

If you have made the ports "wedge port" size you HAVE to get a cam that makes massive vacum. Or you will never get decent power out of them. I´m thinking Web 86C perhaps even on 105 LC to get the mix in motion. An FK8 & 10 wohnt do it. - Well, a 10er, maybe.

T

The heads aren't full on wedge size, just a re-worked port.

Still thinking FK8, but what's the webcam compatibilty like with CB lightweight lifters?

I remember loving your 2276 Motor Ron, what was the compression again?

Decisions decisions!!

Lee

I have the K10 in my 2110.  Engine has dual IDa's as well. Berg 870 style 42.37.5 heads. Full weight 68 Beetle with stock gears.  Runs well on the street.  I drive it with my 2 kids in  the car as well.  For me the K10 is as radical as I would go in a street car I wanted to take on long trips occasionally, but that's just me.

I've had Webcam 86c and CB ultralight lifters in our endurance-race engine (2274cc) with hand-ported 044:s (44x38) and 45 drla's. Currently CR 10.4.To reduce wear we use only 1.25:1 bugpack rollers. Pulls strong from ~3200 to 6500, made 169hp with 9.7:1 CR and now clearly stronger. It's been in use for four years now in 20 six-hours endurance races and also loaned one summer to friend's bus. Tearing the engine now apart because of a cracked crankcase, should be interesting how the camshaft and lifters look. I've always used Kendalls GT1 20W50 with that engine.

I have found no problems with CB lifters and Web Cams. I use the combo  6-7 times a year.

The 86b would definitely be my choice. But I was a little reluctant to recommend it when he was talking wedge port size intake ports on a 2110. With the right port that cam rocks IMHO.
T

i have most parts no all ready for my 2110 as well.
it will be something similar as your engine and i choose a FK-10 for it.

henk!!!

i have a fk8 in my 2276 that is fitted in the type3 at the moment and it is great. it pulls nice in ower rpms, is streetable and works great to get the 'get going' feeling. the gearbox is stock type 3 (33/8) and that is a great combo to drive. with a cam that has more duration the cam will 'come on' later, and i don't need that in a streetcar, you just don't drive at 6000 rpms or leave the lights at 6000 either (well maybe not always...)
but the heads are different as i have steve tims stage 2's and i agree with torben that they can make a cam work or not.

The FK4x has extremely aggressive ramps, I would not recommend it. Ruined my case tree years ago...

I now have a cam from a small swedish company, very happy after two seasons.

My vote is the FK-8. Had Chris from Engle, grind me a special FK-8 for a motor I'm building for a friend of mine.  ::) ;D

Ted

Thanks for all the replies,

The 86b is winning at the moment. I know someone with that cam, stock gears and a 2276. Will try and get a drive to firm up my decision.

Lee

Right,

Cam chosen is a webcam 86c, not mild but hey, the car won't see huge street miles ;D

What compression ratio range is suitable?

Lee

That is a very big cam for that size of engine. I would use Pauter T7 or V4 .

Udo

Really? It is running an 82mm crank, so torque shouldn't be an issue?

Lee

Udo Likes Pauter cams. ;-)  They do make very good power. But makes the valve train kinda noisy IMHO.
With the C cam. you want 11-1 CR. That´ll really make it buzz.

T

If you use 94's .. ! Most pauter cams are not noisy , even on engines like that which are noisy itself.
Everybody has different experience .

Udo

Thanks Torben,

So the 86c, with 10.5:1 would suit my motor size/combination?

Probably using a close ratio box from the race car (1.04 4th) in this bug now and get a full race box for the race car.

Lee

10,5 is close, so it works.
I have done down to 10-1 CR. with that cam. But going from 10 to 11 - 1 make a massive torque increase. How about 196 hp & 260+ Nm torque from a 2275 with 48 dells. Its a grocery getter in disguise  ;D

An old customer of mine also runs a similar 2275, and likes to show off. He can pull second gear burn outs on 225 rears, and play with the rpms down to 4000. Now THAT´S TORQUE !

Old and not too good quality. But check out the last of the beetles: http://www.bilgalleri.dk/vid_vis.aspx?page=2&VideoId=5065

Enjoy.

T

Thanks again,

Looking forward to it now, should be a fun combination ;D

Hi Lee

Been reading this thread with a lot of interest. My friend runs an FK8 with 1.4's in his 2109 and it pulls well across the range ( he makes 170bhp at the flywheel with cooling and through muffler ). It is a full weight show and shine looker with full interior,all steel etc,a 1.48 / 1.04 / 3.88 box,I think and has a pb of 13.0 on ordinary street treads.

I have run an FK10 with 1.4's in my old 1835 which made 169 bhp. I really loved this cam combo with street eliminators 42 x 27 and around 10:1 CR and 45 DRLA's she felt really fast on the street and pulled from around 3000 up to 6500 before tailing off quite quickly.

I ran with FK89 AND 1.4's in my 2276,O44's AND 11:1 CR with 48 DRLA's and not as much fun on the street,not enough going on mid range,all top end with what seemed like a very narrow power band.

Currently my new motor is 2332 on IDA' with Comp Elims and FK87 and 11:1 and I haven't got any set time at all to give you any useful feedback except that the FK87 feels different to the 89 more streetable so far but still top endy but with a wider power band.

Can I ask about the spec combo of the 2276 motor and gearbox in your all steel Oval that runs 11's as this is my new goal too and I'd be real interested to know what combo you ues to get their ie on slicks without fanbelt,and so on. So far I have only squeezed a couple of 12.6's with belt and muffler attached but using MH DOT's so a loooong way to go yet for 11's

Cheers

Shane.

Hi Shane,

Your new motor sounds strong :)

Just seen your reply on my other thread, so you pretty much know the spec now but here goes anyway

2276cc built by Matt Keene
FK87, 44X37.5 Wedgeports cleaned up by Matt, 10.3:1 CR, 1 3/4 Header. Best time ran with muffler, no fan belt and MH Slicks and front runners.
Box is 1.48/1.04 ratio built be Pete@Cogbox. 4.12, with super beetle first.

I think the car would go quicker with a closer 4th gear hence my question about ratios.
Car has stripped interior, lexan windows but is always raced to MOT standard. With ligths/wipers etc. I run a light weight battery also.

I have used this set up on the street, hence why an FK8 worried me in my other motor wouldn't interest me enough!

Hope this helps, if you need any more info just ask ;D

Lee

Hi Lee and thanks for coming back with the info  :)

I must say I am impressed with the 11 second pass which is no mean feat naturally aspirated and would say as you mentioned with your motor spec your making 200 horses for sure.For comparison my old 2276 that I mentioned made 201 at the flywheel no cooling but I was nowhere near as fast as you have run and my ratios were 1.58 / 1.22 / 4.12. Erm what kind of 60 foot's were you getting ?

As you probably realise it's all about RPM drop between gears and staying within the power band.If you know where you shift gear ( 7200 ? ) have you ever noticed roughly where the RPM drops down to on your rev counter slotting into 4th as obviously the engine wants to be at a point where it is still accelerating and reaching peak torque.I used to drive around a lot on the road when it was quiet to try and ascertain this.

As mentioned too moving from a 1.04 4th to a 1.22 will keep things on the boil for you and may possibly allow a faster time,in theory.

Keep up the good work and good luck with your choices.

Hi again Shane,

Thanks for the kind words. I'm still surprised how the car performs as well!

My best 60ft iirc was a 1.509. Car has Koni reds set to hard, bus snubbers and stock springplates/torsion bars and rubber bushs.
Cage obviously stiffens the rear end but was achieving similar 60ft's with a funkenblitz style rear brace bar.

Remember a few of your car/engines as they have ended up in various hands near me in Bournemouth.
Hoping to race this year for a full season with OFF, took this year out due to the birth of my son (no time/money!!)

The gearbox/ratio is a real dilema, I struggle to look at rpm when racing.....too busy!!

Would be good to see you next season

Lee

Lee,that 60 ft is really good.With what is essentially limited power ( 200 ) your car is really hooking up well so the rear suspension and tyres are working and gripping very well in my opinion. My best 60 ft to date is 1.65 with a 12.61 pass at 106 mph on MH DOT's. I have the cage tied into chassis a la Jim Smith style too and use Koni Red's out back,no snubbers though but do have 28mm torsion bars and HD spring plates. I was never sure how hard to set the Koni's up at and always used to run them at max but with recent forum chat with BeetleBug he suggests with my setup one complete turn down from max.................so trial and error next year.

Yeah next year I will definetly be back out racing after a five year absence so be real good to meet you and catch up  :)

Been there done that with the kids thing so appreciate what your saying as I guess most of us have at some point  ;D

I was originally going to run with the Outlaws but a lot has changed and I just joined up with a real friendly but serious bunch of like minded racers who form the DKR club and look forward to racing with them in 2012.

Anyway bound to bump into you at either Shakey or Santa Pod so come say Hello for sure.

Cheers

Shane.

Results are now in - no pitting or noticeable wear in neither the lifter nor the cam. Just some normal polishing. I wouldn't hesitate to recommend these lifters and this cam. This same used cam and (numbered) lifters will see another engine some time as they're proven for me to be a good combination!

...and for that Mexico AS41 case, it was cracked at least in three parts - from the both sides behind the flywheel (#3 side crack went to the oil galley) and also a big crack behind the #4 cylinder. No wonder it was sweating a bit of oil. Suppose it's good to weld #3 back and shuffle pin the case.

Very informative topic! This forum is the best!

makes me wanna go into my garage, rip off that K-8 and install 86C that is waiting on the shelf RIGHT NOW!:-D

I switched from the FK8 to the 86C and was very happy.  The difference in lift is modest (0.012"), but the profile makes the difference:

FK8:  0.534" lift (1.4's), 258 degrees (0.050")

86C:  0.546" lift (1.4's), 272 degrees (0.050")

could you explain this a bit? what is the diggerence in overall performance? does the power band move up higher?

86C produced 11.2 BHP more power at higher rpms than the FK8, but with a slightly rougher idle (due to overlap perhaps?).  Seat of the pants, it's quite noticeable and 1/4-mile times were 3/10ths quicker!

thanks. so i think a FK8 will still be better in a heavier car (like my type3) and maybe not give the same ET's as the 86c, but it is always a compromise.

 
[/quote]

86C produced 11.2 BHP more power at higher rpms than the FK8, but with a slightly rougher idle (due to overlap perhaps?).  Seat of the pants, it's quite noticeable and 1/4-mile times were 3/10ths quicker!
[/quote]

NEIL!
Out of curiousity, what were the static compression ratios used with those cams, respectively?
I was expecting the peak increase to be a bit higher with the 86C ... ?
Thanks!
TxT

The 86C does normally not show super high numbers. The difference is the average power and the torque. That´s what makes the C so powerfull and fast.
When we make an APB calculation on an engine which has a good combo we rarely see higher numbers with other combo´s in the same range.
T

Thanks Torben ...

I thought the difference would be greater due to the cam AND the compression jump needed to make it work ... probably a full point greater for the 86C than the K8 ...
I know that's what was needed when I switched to it.

But you're right ... overall power is increased, not just peak.
TxT

86C produced 11.2 BHP more power at higher rpms than the FK8, but with a slightly rougher idle (due to overlap perhaps?).  Seat of the pants, it's quite noticeable and 1/4-mile times were 3/10ths quicker!
[/quote]

NEIL!
Out of curiousity, what were the static compression ratios used with those cams, respectively?
I was expecting the peak increase to be a bit higher with the 86C ... ?
Thanks!
TxT
[/quote]

Yes, I omitted the CR's...9.5 with FK8 and 10.5 with 86C.  Here are the HP curves (I wasn't able to get a torque curve for the 86C, as the printer malfunctioned:

FK8: 169.2 WHP
(http://i41.tinypic.com/2ujnl3c.jpg)

86C:  180.447 WHP
(http://i44.tinypic.com/b6dabo.jpg)

so if i get this right, the 86c begins to produce more power over the FK8 at 4500 rpms? below that is is similar or even in favor of the FK8.

it proves a bit the point that Mark Herbert made in one of his engine talks on the other cal look site. if you are not at 4500 rpms you get beaten at the lights  ;D the reason why he choose a W120 in a 2276.

my point, if there is one, is that i really believe (still) a lot of engines are 'overcammed', but the 86C is a good cam nevertheless, it has been used many times with good results in street/strip cars.

thanks for the data.