The Cal-look Lounge

Berg 78x94, 5.5 rods, 44x37.5 p&p heads, 48IDA's, compression will be set at approx 10.5:1...  Going in a full bodied '67 sedan.

This is primarily a fun street car, occasional run to work in it.  Very rarely have my wife or kids in it.  I want something kind of nasty, would really love to get in to the 12's in the 1/4mi.  What would you suggest I look at?  A resonable idle, fairly streetable, but get's it on at the track is what I"m after.   ;)

Thanks in advance!  Eric

Web 86C.

I have a friend that runs that cam in a 2387 streetable drag motor.....   How is it on lifter bores?

If you're running 1.4 ratio rockers, then the lift is only 0.546" with a Web 86C (272 duration at 0.050"), so there shouldn't be too many problems.  I've never experienced any lifter bore issues on my stock mag case.  The FK8 is another good cam 0.534" lift with 1.4 rockers, but it might be tough to get into the 12's with an FK8, although some have done it.

Like you, I drive a full bodied Beetle, (1805lb without driver), so I can vouch for the 86C being good enough for high 12's on 91 octane pump gas.  I first ran 12.9's at altitude with 44 x 37 heads and 10.6:1 CR...

Who did the heads?  What kind of lift are they set up for?

It all depends on your heads but talking strictly cam I would recommend the FK87.

I have almost same kind engine and FK87 inside there... CR11,2 and still reasonable idle and streetable  8)

I got a similar engine and running the Web 86c. Really liking it but I'm going to raise the CR this winter. Now running on 9.8:1 but looking to get up to 10.7:1

We're going to build them.  I have a friend that has many yrs as a shop owner and builder, he owned SCS up here in Eugene.  I do have the Autocraft 1.4's to go with them.  Tom, head guy, knows how to make hp, so I'm puting it in his hands.

FK10 would be my choice for your combination.
TxT

How different is it, or what is the driving difference with the FK10 over the Web Cam 86C?

i agree.. my friends 94x78.4   runs this on IDA

and its very nice below 2k rpm... nice enough that his wife who barely drives well.. can drive it to work..

and above 3k rpm.. its pretty torquey... and to my surprise.. the rpm limiter is 7k rpm and it doesnt seem to be that high at all..

nor  long enough bfor im grabbing gears to shift as the shiftlight pops hahaha

I have similar motor and went with FK87 and 1.4:1 rockers.
running 11:1 with 44x38 - idle is ok and smooth through range. But can be propoerly nasty if you are in the mood

As of right now, I'm leaning toward the FK87 or 86c.......   fun on the street no doubt!   :o

Well, that changes things. If Tom is a head guy he should also know his math and find the perfect cam for your engine. Not only should he find a cam but he should also calculate the length of your intakes and exhaust header.

BB

The intakes are what they are, as well as the header.   We'll taylor heads to suite.  He has some cams in mind.

With those constants it will always be a compromise. Most original manifolds out there will work as a second venturi killing the power of your engine just like most headers are way to long.



 

Agreed, thr manifolds will be ported all the way up.  Sorry, I thought you meant what brand.

I suggested the FK10 for a couple of reasons.
First off, you could run 10:1 (easier on the engine with pump gas!) and it'll make good power; down low when your driving around and easily up to 7k+, pulling all the while. The 87 and 86C (I run an 86C myself in a 2276) are great cams I think, but definitely have a power band. They'll pull past 8k easy ... which brings on another point ...
You'll be servicing your top end a LOT more often. I usually get about a year out of a set of springs.
If your heads will breathe well all the way to .550+ and you want more strip than street, the larger cams will do that.

Will you be running close ratio gears?

Good points Tom.......  no, I'm still using stock '67 ratios in a built box.

Without the proper gearing, it's hard to recommend a high reving 'light-to-light' type cam. That's what I truly would my combination ... with the 86C.
I thoroughly enjoy the power my engine is capable of and abuse it whenever I get the chance!
BUT, I also don't drive my car more than twice a month, averaged over the course of a year.
I CAN'T WAIT to get my '67 project going ... 1955cc with torquer cam set up to rev to 6k.

I know you WANT power like 'This', but if you're honest with yourself and want a StreetCar that will Perform, just take the time to consider your options.
Besides, this is NOT going to be some DOG of a combination! You're just backing off a bit to be more truly streetable and still easily capable of 12s ... if that's your goal. It was mine, but in retrospect maybe went a bit far. ;)

Sounds to me like you Need a 4" Bore engine! ;D ;)

The only reason I've kept stock gearing ratios is because up here in Oregon, things are spread out a bit.  Sometimes you have to jump on the freeway to get somewhere, or take twice as long getting there on the back roads.   I mainly run mine on the weekends, but occasionally drive to work as well.  I am trying to be honest about what I want, truth is...  I want it to kick ass on the streets and run 12's on the weekends.   ;D    I'm still leaning 86c, but time will tell.  I need to chat some more with my build help and see what he's thinking.  Thanks Tom!

A bigger crank will go a long way towards accomplishing that. That's asking a lot for a pump gas 2165 backed by stock gears in a stock-ish weight car. Not saying it can't be done, just that everyone has their own idea of what streetable is. Do you have rods yet?

I believe my rods are 5.5's....was going to  continue to use those.

Hmmm... Those would go well with an 84... or 86 crank ;) Add a fk10 you'll definitely have 12 second streetable power.

FK87 with good quality 1.4 rockers.
My 2276 with street elim heads 42/37, comp 10.5, dellorto 48,s ran a dream with this cam, great around town with an idle of 800rpm. Torque cam in around 2800 and revved through 7000 when asked. Ran a low 13 in a very heavy car and tall ratios. 200hp

My buddy runs a 2332 with 11/1 plus comp and 1.5 rockers on an FK87' this car also is great on the street but let's rip when needed. Over 220 hp.

FK87 any day.

Good luck with the build.

Hi Eric, I've built a few 2165s and used the k10 and one of my custom grinds vary close to the 87. Both worked out great. I like the custom grind a little better as I like more top end but you can't go wrong with any of these choices as long as the heads can support them and the valvetrain is up to the task as well. I would recommend you get the lifter bores sleeved if possible and use at least the CB650 springs.

Most people try to get the power with big cams . Get the power from the heads and use a smaller cam . this makes a good power range

Udo

Hey Karl, I'm liking the FK87! 

So do you guys chop up your manifolds to change length very often?  ( got any pic's)

Take it easy!

Darren. 

It tends to be little easier to shorten them to the correct length compared to lengthen them. And you get a bit more space above the carbs too. A win win situation  :)

Or you buy some short ones :-) Avaliable at csp , vee dub parts and my shop . I do not know if Bergs have those back in stock ?

Udo

That`s also a solution. Depending on how much rpms he is going to run his total intake length from the intake valve to the top of the velocity stack should be 30.7cm (8000rpms) or 41.8cm. Or 9000 rpms = 37.2cm.

Ray Velerro just did a set of CBs, they came out nice. You can see them on the UAC on the engine build for Dawn.

Also you can change Velocity stack height as well.

Manifolds I have are the Empi tall IDA units........ugly bastards they are.  The bases are HUGE!   Gonna be tough to fit them in the tin holes w/o mods... 

I think the short ones work well. My wife did a bet et of 11,5 with our black street car and this year consistant 11.0 with her race car . Same engine 94x82 . This engine has welded and ported old VW041 heads and my short manifolds , lots of torque

Udo

Lots of time slips and experiences here with everything but 78x94 motors.....    ::)  Anyone have experiences with this combo specifically??

On this combo i had good experience with Pauter V4 cam ...  Street car ET 12,5 on DOT's .

Udo

I don't know his entire combo, but Ricky Racer from Portland's ancient teal green '55 Oval (the burnout king at PNW VW events, no doubt!) I believe has a 2165 combo and he runs 13's all day long.

Simply another man's opinion....

Stock gearing, in particular that tall 1.26 3rd, is going to be tough on a bigger cam.  I know your gearbox is probably all together and you aren't looking to re-do a gearbox, but I might make one suggestion for a change later on down the road.  I totally "get" the need to have the taller gears in a more rural area.  See if you can find a used early gear box for cheap and pull out the 1.31 3rd gear.  Weld the syncro and replace the 1.26 in your current box.  You will really like the overall drivability and your engine will thank you.

I would echo the recommendations of the FK87, providing your heads are pretty big and flow well.  With a 1.26 3rd, shifting out of 2nd at around 7500 rpms will drop the rpms low into the power band.  It will pull, but clearly the 1.31 will gain you about 500-700 rpms, raising the power band up, reducing your elapsed time at the track.

With nice heads you should see power from about 3700 to 7500 rpms.  Its a kick ass cam!  It will make those IDA's bark! 

Perhaps Jim Ratto will light in ... I'm pretty sure he's currently running a 78X94 engine, (Denham?) nice heads and the 86C, BUT also runs a close ratio box.
He'd be the man I'D ask as he has much good info on this combination and has used multiple different cams with it.

If you're going to choose one of these larger cams (86C or K87), maybe try dialing in a few extra degrees of advance ...

With the stock box, I still say K10 and no larger. If the heads are any good, it will run the number.

TxT

Good info, thanks Tom and WardVWRacer.  I will definitely consider swapping the 3rd gear.  I'll PM Ratto and see what he has to say about it. 
I have the CB Perf. digital ignition, so I can play with the timing curve on it as much as I'd like to.   

Eric

Concerning 'timing' ... I was talking about CAM timing, just to make sure.
That'll push the 'power band' of chosen cam up a bit and make better power down lower to push those high gears!

TxT

I'm not sure now, but last time I talked to Ratto, he was running a stock geared 4.37 box and Clyde Berg/Ratto ported 44 x 37.5 heads with the 86C advanced 2 degrees and locked ignition timing in his 2165.

Yup, I missed that  :D

I thought he was running a Pauter cam?

You need to keep up. Jim swaps cams more than he swaps underwear. ;D

When racing there is no point shifting gear to 4th with this gearbox. A 1.26 3rd will easily take the car over the line but you got to make sure you build a engine that likes to rev (7500+) You loose a lot of time changing gears and especially from 3rd to 4th with a original gearbox.

http://www.csp-shop.com/cshop/technik/getriebeberechnung6.php

Transmission Ratio Chart
Differential Ratio: 3.88
4th Gear: 0.89
Tyre: 205 / 70-15

Gear 1000 1500 2000 2500 3000 3500 4000 4500 5000 5500 6000 6500 7000 7500 8000
1.       8     11    15    19     23    26    30    34    38    41    45    49      53   57    60
2.      14     21   28    35     41    48     55    62    69    76    83    90     97   104  111
3.      23     34   45    57     68    79     90   102  113   124  136   147   158  170   181
4.      35    52    69    87    104   122   139  156  174   191   208  226    243   -      -

Values in km/h

You have received quite a lot of good advices in this thread to keep you away from the worst traps. Personally I think that there is nothing more borring than a average stroker with IDA`s, lazy cam, lazy compression, tall manifolds with a HP curve peaking at around 5600 - 5900 rpms. Do things right together with your head guy and you should be able to make your 78 x 94 scream. Your least worries should be how to fit those ugly EMPI manifolds and as a matter of fact a good start to your build would be to sell them.

-BB-

What compression would you recommend with such an engine? I'm going to raise it from 9.8:1 to 10.7:1 and I hope that I will notice it or that I should go higher.

Yes , but it was too small. This is what i told him ...

Udo

So, should I consider some shorter manifolds?   What will clear best in a stock '67 sedan so I can close the deck lid?

Go ahead and measure the total length of your intake channel from the intake valve up to the velocity stack and you will know the answer to your question. My guess is yes, see above for the length you should aim for.

 

BB, my suggestion was geared towards (no pun intended) improving the overall drivability of a "hot street" engine with a stock geared car.  Whether or not you decide to drive through the traps in 3rd is up to you.  A 1.31 mated to a .93 4th will apply the power from a big cammed engine better than a 1.26/.89 combo all day long and it won't fall on its face with that huge gap between the 2.06/1.26 change.  It will make that combo a heck of a lot more fun to drive.  And isn't that what its all about?

Of course there's always a 5sp conversion too for those that are so inclined.   

On my '67, 48s on Scat Trak talls fit with a small notch in the velocity stack

Awesome, Thanks Rick.   ;)

OK, we found it.  Think FK87, but with a bit more duration and ground on a 112deg lobe center.  Should work quite well in a full street trim sedan.  044 casting heads will get a new treatment of 44x38 valves, welded and redone intakes, etc... 

A reminder that vintage Skat Trak manifolds are not exactly the same dimensions as Scat manifolds...it would be worth checking clearances just to be sure.

I'm not currently using Skats.  Right now, they're the Empi manifolds.

Re-vistited....!   :)

Had an issue with the motor. It's now apart, and am re-thinking the c/r for a 'hot street driver'.  We ended up running an SLR EXR-310-106 cam, c/r is at 10.5:1.  I'm going to call Steve as well about it for this cam, but am curious if you guys think it's too high for a street car with occasional trips to the strip. 

Thanks!  Eric

What kind of issue?   That is a monster of a cam so you should be able to get away with a tad more compression than say a k-8.  I ran that cam and it screamed like a banshee over 5000to but my springs were not adequate and subsequently lost a few lifters. With the same compression as you in my 76*94 it ran 12.50 at 107 here in Vegas.

I had intake valves hitting the 3/4 pistons due to  cyl. head issues...  I split the motor to dbl check everything, and am pondering the c/r being ideal.  Cam is very torquey, esp. on the 106lc.  Heads are heavily portted 44x37.5, 55cc chambers, @ 10.5:1.

I think you did your math wrong somewheres. 10.5:1 with 55cc chambers is only .011" deck. 50cc at .040 deck would give you 10.5;1 or 55cc and .040 deck (bare minimum) would give you 9.7:1.

I didin't do the math........I was told deck was .000", had a .040" an a .020" shim under the cyl, and a .040" head gasket.

My mate ran Pauter V9E0/scat lifter in 78x94 5.5 rods, IDA, welded 42x37.5 heads really nice power delivery, changed to 82 crank 5.7 Carrilos and the thing screamed.
I am thinking of running the same cam scat lifter combo in a 82x90.5 combo. Like Udo said horse power is in the heads if thats what you are chasing.

cheers
ben

.000 deck + .040 head gasket + 55cc chambers =9.7:1

I'll probably be ordering either CB wedge ports, or Steve Tims Stage 2 heads or similar this week.

That's funny....I don't know what the hell he did then.  Starting over! LOL

So if I leave the deck at .000", and use a .040" head gasket, I should be able to dial in my desired C/R by manipulating the heads via chamber size and fly cutting, correct??
I'm shooting for 9.5:1 C/R, as per Steve Long over the phone yesterday.
 

eric

I use this engine calc to figure everything out

http://www.johnmaherracing.co.uk/enginecalc.htm

enter all your details and it gives you rthe answers :)

with 0.040 deck and 55cc,78 stroke and 94mm bore it gives 9.7/1, then 57cc gives 9.5/1 or 55cc and 0.048deck

 
cheers richie

Thanks Richie  ;)

Eric, the copper shims do crush a little and if you have a STD type 1 main crank it does flex a little. Also wiu the cam ground on 106lbc the valve event is earlier so you have less valve to piston clearance.

Do you think O should run Bit more deck to be safer???

Personally I think with only a 78 crank 0.040 is fine,all the copper shims I have ever measured are 0.042 thick anyway,you would just need to check valve to piston clearance,from the info you have given I am thinking there is actually zero deck with the copper shim,did the piston hit the head?

cheers richie

I have a 78.4 x 94mm with steve tims stage 2 plus heads with 86c. Rund very nicr. 190 hp at the crank with 37 vents in ida. Cr is 10.7:1 high torque also 230nm

An Engle 125 on 106 LC with 1.25 rockers.

That's what I gots for my 2017 build...;D  I basically copy-catted the Cal Look engine in Hot VWs circa 1995... but instead of 40x35.5 Fumio heads, I've got the Tims Stage II's.

You giving it some compression this time around?

Off topic; wich issues was this in? Was it also in the engine book?

Zach, looking at right around 9:1 or theres about.  Maybe a little higher, it's not a daily driver, more of a seasonal toy at this stage, so I'm sure I can get away with a little more, especially at elevation 4,800 feet.

The Hot VWs engine build was in the 1997 engine book (Part II) in its entirety.

So, the final update is this:  I"m not sure what the hell he did for deck and c/r.  I had a .000" deck at the cyl, and (2) .040" copper shims in the heads.  I'm also thinking the c/r was in the 9.5-9.7 range.  I tore it down myself and re-built it myself.  If the shit hits the fan, it's on me.   :o

I kept with the zero deck at the cylinder, and used (1) .050" copper shim (assuming it'll crush to about .047").  This puts me at 9.4:1.  I figure it's a safe yet very fin c/r for what I'm after.  I can always change it some other time.  I went with Tims Stage 2 plus heads, with new match ported CB big beef manifolds, top to bottom.  I did check the valve to piston clearance with some play-doh, have lots of room.....prob could have sat that c/r down a bit more!   ;D  We did check the lift at the valve, and got.607" with my Autocraft 1.4's.  I was pretty impressed. Took it for a spin last night, seems to run great!  Thank guys for your input and support.   ;)

Eric    

(http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a6/Hotrodvw/2012-09-04223148.jpg)

On my new 2303cc I have "0" deck with .060 copper head gasket. No problem. Minimum  you want to run is .040, .050 is fine, as long as the numbers you want work out, Sounds like a real nice motor. Didn't read what cam you ended up with? But did a motor for a guy, 2275cc, used a K-8 on a 106*LC and advanced it another 2*, runs like a bat out of hell, tons of torque. Talk about fun on the street!


Ted

Cam is an SLR xr310-106

I've ran that cam, a hard weld cam, on the same 2303cc w/ V-7 heads from Fred Simpson, got it from Babe Erson when he was still with us, of course Steve was working with him at the time. I had advanced that cam 4*, still made 200HP @ 6500rpm, thats a GREAT cam. Not so hard on lifter bores.

Ted

We chose it because I was aiming for the bottom end torque, but we set the cam at zero.  Do you think I should advance it some day?  I'm curious what kind of difference it would make.

Yes, for sure, that cam is between a K-10 and a 86C cam, it's more mid to top end cam. You advance it, will bring the power down more, I would advance it 4*. You will see a difference.

Ted

Before you said it was an EXR310 now XR310, just curious which you went with?   

XR310-106.   I goofed by adding the "E" to the prefix.

Hi Ted,
Just to expand on this, by advancing a cam, would that mean the intake is opening sooner and closing sooner?
Just thinking in terms of volumetric efficiency (or trying to) does the best filling happen early in the stroke? Ie get it open ASAP or better off leaving it open later and longer?

Hoping the answer wil help us mortals understand it a bit better.


Did you measure intake runner length in the end?

I didn't measure it. CB Big Beef manifolds if anyone knows.