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Title: Best dualsprings? Post by: carlito421 on December 14, 2011, 20:52:25 pm Hi everyone,
I've a 1776cc with OG crankshaft, Engles 130, 044 heads and one of my dualsprings (Bugpack) is broken. What's the best mark of dualsprings can I buy? If you have a link it's better. Thanks. Carlito. Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: Fasteddie63 on December 15, 2011, 00:49:19 am CB 650 Works Well,The K-Motion 750 But You Have To Do A Little Machine WorkTo Open The Pockets .020 But They Work Too Set Of 16 Goes For 129.00 From Jegs
Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: TexasTom on December 15, 2011, 00:57:39 am I'd go with the Oteva 75 springs available from JPM in Sweden ... if you want the Best.
Stock ratio rockers? http://www.jpmotorsports.se/products TxT Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: carlito421 on December 15, 2011, 01:48:16 am Thanks dudes.
I hesitated between CB and Berg... How about Berg dual springs? Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: ibg on December 15, 2011, 11:02:44 am GB 273A dual springs shimmed should work well if you have 1.1 rockers, if you a using more lift i second the CB 650. Lots of revs, maybe berg tripples.
Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: rick m on December 18, 2011, 21:28:50 pm Why not go to the progressive spring rate of a BEEHIVE spring? This is what the V8 guys are doing. Some VW guys have already run them.
RM Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: lawrence on December 18, 2011, 21:50:52 pm I am also searching for a set of duals and have heard positive comments on the bugpack 4046 and CB 650. My heads are CB 044 with stainless steel valves, chromoly locks and retainers. The standard setup.
Does anyone have some experiences, good or bad, that they care to share? Ease of installation, durability, material quality, extra parts required? Rick, I have heard about some VW guys using the beehive spring. Do you know if this was in a street or drag application? I am sure you're aware that VW cam lobe profiles are different than V8 and my concern is street usage. Racers probably change springs every season so longevity is not such an issue. Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: ibg on December 19, 2011, 02:11:22 am All need shims to protect head and check/set lift before coil bind. 4046 needed deburring, Berg and CB 650 better finished. Shimmed to 70 thou 4046 lost pressure sooner than Berg. CB can lift more and has more pressure on the nose and heel but I haven't run long enough to see if much pressure has been lost. Cam and rockers will probably dictate which to use, these experiences are for 86B with 1.45's
Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: Dougy Dee on December 19, 2011, 14:20:44 pm Did you run stock length valves with the 650's or .200 longer?
Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: lawrence on December 19, 2011, 18:59:55 pm All need shims to protect head and check/set lift before coil bind. 4046 needed deburring, Berg and CB 650 better finished. Shimmed to 70 thou 4046 lost pressure sooner than Berg. CB can lift more and has more pressure on the nose and heel but I haven't run long enough to see if much pressure has been lost. Cam and rockers will probably dictate which to use, these experiences are for 86B with 1.45's Thanks for the info, ibg. I think I will try out the 650s. I have an 86b and CB 1.4 rockers, so my results will be similar. Is it necessary to buy new spring retainers and valve locks or can I re-use the stuff I have if it does not show wear? Why are shims necessary to protect the head? My 044 came setup from CB and I do not recall them having shims, just a slight "pocket" where the spring sits. I guess I should just call CB... Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: ibg on December 19, 2011, 22:09:57 pm Dougydee, stock length valves with CB 650's.
Laurence, check retainer for fit in new springs but should be OK, CB should know! The springs are hard steel, and the head is alloy and there are turning forces on the springs as they compress, so hardened shims under the valve springs is just good engine building practice. If they are not there, put them in, your heads will thank you. One thin one will do the trick but it would be good to set up your new springs with maybe 100 thou to coil bind at full lift. (as measured on your engine) Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: So.Cal.Life on December 20, 2011, 02:18:40 am Why not go to the progressive spring rate of a BEEHIVE spring? This is what the V8 guys are doing. Some VW guys have already run them. . Rick, I have heard about some VW guys using the beehive spring. Do you know if this was in a street or drag application? I am sure you're aware that VW cam lobe profiles are different than V8 and my concern is street usage. Racers probably change springs every season so longevity is not such an issue. [From what I understand Joel Mohr ( Mohr Performance) has lots of experience with beehive springs and 7mm valve stems," VW applications" on both street and strip , and has a working relationship with his spring supplier and his cam grinder of coarse. So far I see no drawbacks, I went for quite a ride in Joel's street car some time ago, and was very impressed. 7000rpm+ and no hickups , except for the fan belt getting torn up... good stuff ! KG Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: Jon on December 20, 2011, 07:31:12 am What breaks valve springs? Poor material in the spring, wrong heat treatment, wrong label :-), or bad harmonics?
Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: Fasterbrit on December 20, 2011, 11:14:18 am What breaks valve springs? Poor material in the spring, wrong heat treatment, wrong label :-), or bad harmonics? The quickest way to ruin a valve spring is to float a valve. They do not like to be hammered and lose pressure extremely quickly. Float a valve even just for a brief period and you can almost lose a third to a half of the spring's pressure... Forever! Worst case scenario the spring will break :o Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: Erlend / bug66 on December 20, 2011, 11:47:44 am Im going to run 044 Wedgeports 42/37,5 with VW650 springs (CB650?)
Web86C (0,585" lift) w/1,4 160lbs at 1,540" installed, 420lbs at 0,630" lift Does this match up? Sorry if it's off topic :) Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: Jesse/DVK on December 20, 2011, 12:01:23 pm The .585 lift is with 1.5 rockers so you should have .546 of lift is everything is correct.
Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: Jon on December 20, 2011, 12:08:57 pm What breaks valve springs? Poor material in the spring, wrong heat treatment, wrong label :-), or bad harmonics? The quickest way to ruin a valve spring is to float a valve. They do not like to be hammered and lose pressure extremely quickly. Float a valve even just for a brief period and you can almost lose a third to a half of the spring's pressure... Forever! Worst case scenario the spring will break :o So if you break springs, you either need stiffer ones or a better designed cam? Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: Erlend / bug66 on December 20, 2011, 12:17:52 pm The .585 lift is with 1.5 rockers so you should have .546 of lift is everything is correct. where did you find that out? I sent Webcam a mail, and they said alle web cams are meassured with 1,4? Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: Jesse/DVK on December 20, 2011, 13:08:10 pm http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Web-Cam-Type-1-Camshaft-Grind-86C-1-4-or-1-5-p/00-112.htm
And got one myself. Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: Erlend / bug66 on December 20, 2011, 13:24:55 pm good to know. webcam sent me this: Erlend, Cams are GENERALLY advertised using 1.4 rockers.
I'll live with 1,4 for now Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: Fasterbrit on December 20, 2011, 17:52:07 pm So if you break springs, you either need stiffer ones or a better designed cam? The better designed cam is by far the best option... ;) Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: Udo on December 20, 2011, 18:44:02 pm What breaks valve springs? Poor material in the spring, wrong heat treatment, wrong label :-), or bad harmonics? The bad thing for a spring is the valve lift, all more than 12 mm is not good for any spring. so you can not get valve springs that never breaks with lift in the 14 or more lift range Udo Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: TexasTom on December 20, 2011, 19:30:14 pm What breaks valve springs? Poor material in the spring, wrong heat treatment, wrong label :-), or bad harmonics? The bad thing for a spring is the valve lift, all more than 12 mm is not good for any spring. so you can not get valve springs that never breaks with lift in the 14 or more lift range Udo I'll count myself lucky then ... my combination (86C with Berg 1.45s) makes just over .610"(15.5mm). Have yet to break a Berg dual spring (stock diameter)! Now that I say that, I know what will happen ... :o They do get replaced on a specific interval ... ! TxT Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: Udo on December 20, 2011, 21:05:19 pm Tom
This is what i recommend to my customer and you are on the save side Everyone knows that in germany and sweden you can get the best steel. i asked at a german company which produces valve springs for the industrie some years ago. They told me there is no steel that holds up the valve lift we have . some springs work longer than others that is for shure ... Udo Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: TexasTom on December 21, 2011, 01:35:43 am Udo!
Wise words. Yes, I think (hope) perhaps the key to my success so far is the relentless replacement schedule and consistent pretesting and setup. Will be using JPM springs in the very near future, but completely different setup 8) Thanks! TxT Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: Fiatdude on December 21, 2011, 04:29:19 am Im going to run 044 Wedgeports 42/37,5 with VW650 springs (CB650?) Web86C (0,585" lift) w/1,4 160lbs at 1,540" installed, 420lbs at 0,630" lift Does this match up? Sorry if it's off topic :) With a 86c, angle ports 48/38's in SS -- I'm running the K800's -- I have the pauter 1.5's in my engine -- I went for overkill and will not rev the engine that high 7K tops -- a 4" bore engine is very expensive thing to replace -- -- that said, I'm probably gonna switch to PSI springs and Ti valves at the next tear down or look for something compatable coming out of a NASCAR combo Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: bilboa2 on December 21, 2011, 07:01:23 am TOM , UDO, thanks for the good input ... I guess i am hoping that the berg springs on my street car with .629 lift, fk46 are made of that famous berg swedish steel theory/story as I am only putting about 100 miles a year on ???....no sign of vavle float/fatigue, never been on rev limiter , 7300 rpm... how much longer ;D ..? ...next time apart going to beehive like other motor. thanks , bill
Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: Jon on December 21, 2011, 08:30:33 am more than 12 mm is not good for any spring. so you can not get valve springs that never breaks with lift in the 14 or more lift range I guess you mean no more than 12mm length on a typical type1 length spring? Will longer springs (and valves) be able to handle more that 12mm? Valued input for sure, need to look at this. Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: viNce on December 21, 2011, 12:36:25 pm Why not go to the progressive spring rate of a BEEHIVE spring? This is what the V8 guys are doing. Some VW guys have already run them. RM I'll run beehives with my next heads, will see how they held up? Will be Steve Tims stage 2 heads, with match ported bugpack #1038 manifolds supplied with .200" longer valves, on my actual short block with a dual lobe FK43 intake / FK7 exhaust cam, will be using smith brother alu pushrods, ti retainers and maybe 57g tool steel lifters if I have enough €€€... also 48 drlas... Title: Re: Best dualsprings? Post by: Udo on December 21, 2011, 13:05:01 pm TOM , UDO, thanks for the good input ... I guess i am hoping that the berg springs on my street car with .629 lift, fk46 are made of that famous berg swedish steel theory/story as I am only putting about 100 miles a year on ???....no sign of vavle float/fatigue, never been on rev limiter , 7300 rpm... how much longer ;D ..? ...next time apart going to beehive like other motor. thanks , bill I think you should be fine with this. We had good results with the black coated Berg springs . They last very long. JHU I mean the traveling of the spring -valve (12mm), because of this i use 140 kg double springs and install them with a long installed height , so it does not run close to coil bind . also 120 kg single springs can be installed with a longer height Udo |