The Cal-look Lounge

As always guys - as the title says  :)

Webster 5 speed straight cut gearbox - Anyone got ANY more info on these boxes ??? ??? ???

Here is what we have so far:

Webster manufacture gears for racing. The company's five-speed conversions were based on Type I transaxles and from what experience I had with them they were made primarily for off-road racecars. I think it was early '80s. Again, from memory fifth gear was above reverse for a true H pattern (with three legs, of course). And I believe that they traded synchros for shift dogs. But I never drove one so I couldn't tell you for sure. I'm no expert.

This might be a Webster fiver.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1171807

Call a good trans shop before you call that guy. I don't think he knows what he has.

Webster 5 speeds are based on Type 1 transaxles and were used in Formula Ford 1600 and 2000 racing. They are non-syncromesh and a PITA to drive on the street.

Pegasus Racing has parts for them.

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com

Glenn has it right. These were not made for street use. Very big in SCCA racing years ago. Why anyone would want to attempt to use one on the street is beyond belief. Two key words in Glenn's description=  NON-SYNCHROMESH and PITA


Webster=track only

In the Zundfolge post you mentioned that you drove a crashbox transaxle and I added that I had experience with early Ford non-synchro transmissions. I can't vouch for the VW 'box but the Ford boxes are waaaay easier to drive than a Hewland. The concentration to keep a Hewland from crunching is on a log scale more tricky than an early Ford box and I can't imagine that the VW box is much different than the Ford. I'm assuming that the Webster is not much different than the Hewland. Maybe someone out there is way better than me but I could never shift a Hewland very fast. 

I have a friend with one and he made the mistake of driving my car with a Berg 5.

He said if he could sell it for half of what he has into it, he would get a Berg 5.

I drove it and it's a bitch in traffic. And i hate the dog leg 1st.

Aha! So it was first that got the dogleg. I remembered it as fifth--as in to engage fifth you had to push it up over reverse. Man, can you imagine trying to speed shift from first to second and catching reverse by mistake? Keeeeerrrruuuuuuunnnnnch....

a big YES

Glenn, you are being restrained in your description.....LOL

what was the rpm shift points to avoid that CRUNCH????

Although you didnt say it, that is the reason why GB modeled the Berg 5 on the 911 box with 5th in the nose cone. Porsche was smart and there was not a need to re-invent the proverbial wheel, was there? Kind of explains why Berg 5 owners say what they feel about the Berg5.

The first-to-reverse shift point? Since reverse is numerically really close to first but backwards it's usually the same engine speed as your shift point but just counterclockwise. To get the engine to spin backwards takes a special starter made from a reverse-wound Tatra T-87 drive motor and a sprag gear from a pre-war Zephyr Wombat.

I, on the other hand, find it much easier to go into reverse at speed by spinning the car. ;)

As the saying goes ... Buy the BEST and cry Once.
Why screw around with some race only trash built for use in a 900 pound vehicle?

Will you be singled out in the crowd? Most likely, Yes.
"WOW, I drove one of those once and it was a POS!"

Cool ... NO.

TxT

that is a shift I would like to see....

The Gene Berg statement....
Amen Brother TxT

Plus you would'nt get any ZOTZ with the webster!!

Are you sure you dont mean pints with the webster??? or the hewland for that matter??? lol!

I always thought the Zotz from Gene Berg made my butt sore but I discovered that it was from being reamed for the same parts I could buy elsewhere for about half the money.

Why the Berg bashing? 

H@TERS, just ignore them.

Generally, I would say it may stem from a lack of knowledge of product, lack of respect for their products and preparation that goes into them, lack of understanding of what is necessary from a management perpective to facilitate a one-stop experience and provide the components and knowledge necessary to satisfy and support the needs of a world-wide customer base, or perhaps simple difference of opinion. Also, of course, a combination of any or ... ?
Who knows, who cares? ;)

Keep smiling!
TxT

Hater? No, that maybe critical or even cynical. It's just that the emperor is not wearing any clothes.

I certainly admit that I don't understand why someone would claim that an engine can't tolerate more than 7.3:1 static CR regardless of cam timing or why they would willingly eliminate the quench area from a cylinder head. I don't understand how an expert couldn't understand the difference between RON and AKI octane ratings. I don't understand why a vendor would claim parts were Pick of the Litter when the box they came in was never even opened for inspection. And I really don't understand why I paid considerably more for those same parts that I could get from others--even FAT was considerably less money.

I will grant Berg for coming up with a good five-speed trans conversion. Oddly enough even though it costs a bundle it represents good value--as do some of some other parts like the deep sumps and trans mounts. I just think the guy needs a good postmortem ribbing every now and then.

Agreed-could not say it any better.

notice that for all the attempts at creating a 5 Speed, none has been introduced into the marketplace that will replace the Berg 5.

Sounds like a read of the Berg technical papers/manual is in order where these issues are all addressed: heat/engine longevity/compression ratio/product testing/product durability/rebuilding your motor every year versus after a 100,000 mile lifecycle.....alll minor issues it seems to some enthusiasts.

The question then remains: why is there a premium on Berg parts versus all other manufacturers-even used Berg parts?

Quality is quality-one does have free choice to spend their own money the way in which they decide-and Berg addressed that issue as well

Glenn and Don,
admire your postings and your cars and your dedication to Berg parts and a quality product commitment to the enthusiast/purchaser.

How many miles do you both have on your motors and Berg transaxles? Motor and transaxle history to date?

My advice to you is to purchase a Berg 5 speed kit and have John Maher build it up for you there; purchase a used Berg 5 speed transmission and have John Maher rebuild it for you; stay with a stock box;
or buy a new or used Webster or Hewland box, install it, set aside a rather hefty rebuild savings account as you will need it to redo/replace your motor and transmission and to purchase a lot of medication to address all the headaches you will encounter.....sorry to be honest

Where would you like me to start reading? Because I think I might be able to quote chapter and verse from the Blue Bible without even seeing it. Why? This is my blue bible.
(http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z23/hotrodsurplus/Forum%20photos/bluebible-800.jpg)

This upcoming year (January, in fact) marks my 20th anniversary with that book. I was once very taken with the things Berg said. He said/wrote it with such authority and conviction that it was hard to dispute it. I drank the Kool Aid and recited the gospel. I would rejoice with friends the many wonderful things Gene imparted in this book. I literally read the cover off the thing (it's in pieces now). I have the catalogs and the price sheets from the '80s and '90s. Before I moved to California I would make pilgrimages to 1725 N Lime. I would hang on every one of Berg's words as if he were omniscient. If he told me the sky were red I'd take his word for it. After all, he was around for longer than I was. He must know something I didn't. It was grand, that time in my life. I found the guy who answered my questions.

Then I got an education. A BIG one. And a very painful one at that. Among other things I am a technical writer for the automotive industry. I do not know it all nor do I know anyone who does but I know quite a bit thanks to the graciousness of many people from engineers at the OEM level to the very best engine builders this industry has known. I learned from what people like Harry Ricardo discovered in the 1920s, principles that automotive engineers rely on to this day.

And what I learned from them was that many of the things printed in the book that I took as gospel were misguided. Yeah, a great deal of it is relevant--thermostatic system, seal integrity, gear ratio (to a degree) and so on. In essence I learned to think for myself. I learned a lot about the mastery of the combination, that specifications have to be tuned to work with certain parts and not just to an arbitrary number based on a stock combination.

Glenn has too. What is the compression ratio of your engine, Glenn? I recall that it's upwards of 9+ static CR. And if I recall you run a tall ring/pinion and a bus fourth. Has it melted down yet? Both things fly in the face of Berg's teachings and I respect that. That shows independent thought. And I bet that engine runs cool as a cucumber and has lasted for a long time despite violating Berg's edicts. All of the things he villainized aren't necessarily the enemy.

Look I admire everyone's pluck here, whether or not I agree with them. They're stating their case. And in doing so we all get the opportunity to learn something. The last thing we should do is just lay over and take something as gospel because someone said it with great conviction. I fell victim to that and I'd be embarrassed of it if I didn't take the chance to really learn from it. And for god's sake don't take what I say as truth or gospel. I'm just some knucklehead who can't get over this car obsession. I don't have the answers and don't claim to either. Just find out for yourself. Read everything. Ask questions. Question 'authority'. And I admit I'm hard on Berg. But I think we need to come out from under the spell and recognize his contributions and his shortcomings. He and his company is neither all good nor all bad.

I know you must think that I'm not concerned with quality or longevity. I am...deeply. It's my money and this ain't cheap. But Berg's way is not the only way. And to bring it back on topic, the Berg five is likely the very best five-speed conversion for most applications. But that's for the end user to decide. And facts are necessary for an informed decision. 

[/rant]

I certainly respect your opinion and point of view......points that are very well made. given this, Gene would probably agree with you. Many years have passed since those articles were written. And advances in auto technology have occurred during that time. Can you imagine what Gene would be doing on an 80 year old motor design?

I have 40,000+ miles on mine and regularly beat the snot out of it with my old 1904 and current 2180. It's off to Gary Berg to replace a noisy mainshaft bearing and update the breather so it doesn't puke gear lube during extended 80+mph runs.

Still shifts like new.

I have around 60k miles on mine.  Glenn I solved that problem years ago, but routing the breather line to a vented catch can that drained back into the ring gear housing.  I had my 5th gear synchro crack, but that's about it.

 :-\ can we get back to the WEBSTER boxes please  ::) :)

29 replies and approx 80% are about Berg  ::)

 ;) :)

Did you check out Pegasus Racing, as Glenn had suggested?
Other than that, your best bet would maybe be getting in touch with some Formula or SuperVee racers?

https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/advcat.asp?CategoryID=TRANSDIFF

Honestly, Good Luck!

After reading what people have posted there might be a reason!!!

Yeah yeah as always "Buy Berg its the best"  ::) ::) ::)

I did not ask "what I should BUY I just asked for INFORMATION  :)

GOOGLE has it all ...  ;)


http://www.formulavee.org/

Ask THESE guys.

TxT

there is a relational statement here that needs to be made; dont ask the question (ANY INFORMATION) unless you are prepared to hear the answers-Good or bad pleasant or unpleasant-its information that you asked for.

You asked for information and you received it from a variety of sources. with experience. if you think that putting a Webster road racing transaxle in a street car is a great thing, how come there arent any more done? They certainly have been around for years. Putting a Webster in a street car is not like driving a split window crashbox.  Not even close.

Trans must be shifted at very high rpms or you get the dreaded gnashing of teeth because its has no synchros and the gears are straight cut. Sound familiar?

Bottom line is that it is your money to spend as you see fit. Now you have to do further homework for the car you want to put this transaxle in- race car only or a street car?


a reasonable conclusion.

Have fun.

I am going to go out on a limb here but I am sure a few other are feeling the same  :-\

I am not really sure you "Get" what this forum is about dude  :-\ We like doing it "the old ways" we are VERY interested in the little details of the way the guys used to do it back in the 70's - YES I could fit a berg5 (and I may) and YES I could go and buy a pair of "new" 48idas off ebay and YES I could order a 2276 long block out of Hot Vw magazine BUT I DON'T  :)

Right or Wrong I/we (or many of us at least!) are trying to capture the Spirit of the time that the original "Cal Look Cars" were built, and in many cases that means using the ORIGINAL parts that they/you used, Just as an example I have just had my old SPG roller bearing crank completely rebuilt/modified (at a BIG cost!) Just because I really like the idea of building an old skool 2180cc SPG motor  ;)

Now back to the thread in hand I asked for information on the  Webster 5 speed straight cut gearbox NOT information on Which is the best 5 speed gearbox
I am not getting all stressed about this - Just making things clear  ;) :)

well here is a race car with "straight cut gears"  :D :D :D

Have you tried contacting the guys that build transaxles for the formula vee cars yet? ... The ones listed on the link I searched for and found for you?
Since the boxes were primarily built for this type of machine, I would imagine they may be able to supply you with the information you desire.
OR, you could contact Pegasus Racing. Ask them who may be able to supply the information if they cannot?
As to whether it will work or not, since there are so very few examples (apparently) in existence, you may have to be the one to find out.
If it was so easy, everybody would do it (Berg5?).

Just an idea ... hope it helps.

"This information has been presented to you FREE OF CHARGE by TxTInfoGatheringResources, LLC"

Keep Smilin'!
 ;)

Lee, I totally get making sacrifices for a period look. But this box looks to be much more than that. It seems to me that it's more of a nuisance, and you will hate driving your car.
Have you thought about a 901 box, and converting to IRS?

 ;) Dude I am just throwing ideas around you know how it is  ;)

Its just an idea I have always thought about as I know the "Mini copper" guys often run "straight cut" boxes even in street cars (I have even heard a couple over the years!) so I always wondered if it was a "possibility" for a type1 box  :) seems like its a possibility but living with one might just be a different matter  :D :D :D

Was there in the 70s.

Did that then in the 70s.

Even had an SPG roller crank motor in the early 70s. Wouldnt touch one today if it were given to me. And I bought it because it was a "hot rod vw crank" -much the same reason you wanted to buy yours. And learned my lesson the hard way in 1969.

There were no EMPI cranks then. Just SPG and Ottinger from Germany (aka OKRASA).

Like I said, you asked for information and you got it. Go back and read the 70s issues of HotVWs since that is what you are into. how many webster gearboxes installed in featured cars driven on the street do you find?

Its your money to spend-do it the way you want-if it works for you, great. if it doesnt, i am sure you have the money to fix your transmission.

Zach has it right. as does Texas Tom Glenn and Donnie. all period cars-and owners who know what works and over many years from what i have read of their posts.

Hell, if i were you, i would buy all the spg cranks i could find. After all, we referred to them as boat anchors waiting to be used in the 70s based on our experiences with them-again a road racing crank for porsches that did not have many drag bug owners/racers at ocir/lyons/irwindale (old) that were fans of that crank-not good for drag racing

As I said, have fun doing it. its your money. When you ask questions, be prepared for the responses you get from people with experience.

Yes straight cut sounds very cool ;D. The straight cut close ratio Mini Cooper boxes are widely used on the streets but they are all fully synched. You can get straight cut boxes for the Mini Cooper with dog engagement as the Webster as well, but they are race only.  Like posted earlier you would hate running a dog box on the street and running it in heavy city traffic is almost impossible.

This guy might also be able to give you a recommendation on the street-worthiness of this type of transaxle ...

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1235753

I think you've exhausted the local knowledge base. I think you need to start looking for transaxle builders. You live in the land of Formula Ford, the main application for these gearboxes. You should try asking around. I did the Jim Russell Formula Ford classes in Donington in 1990. I have the sneaking hunch that the Russell school has a transaxle specialist on retainer.

You might want to try Peter Holinger's shop. Peter would've been the man to talk to but you'd need a pretty good ouija board to do it now as he died a few years back. But I bet someone at his shop knows a little about these boxes. And Holinger has outlets in US and Europe (Germany).

http://www.holinger.com.au/index.php

Houseman Autosport in Canadia might be able to shed light.
http://www.housemanautosport.com/

My apologies if someone already posted this but there was a thread about this very subject on the other site earlier this year.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=477189&start=0

Each setup has its advantages and detractors. The Hewland/Websters have an incredible range of gear ratios. They're very owner-serviceable from what I understand. They're quite tough. They're also noisy, take more concentration to shift, and obsolescence makes parts and service harder to find. Does it make them bad? Of course not. They're great for the right applications. You just have to decide if that application is yours and to do that you have to know the parameters. You may be far more forgiving than others to the things that give these gearboxes their character.

We're all a bit sick in the sense that we're fighting the system in a way for our passion (shitty old cars). Our passion is obsolete and relatively difficult to live with by modern standards. If we were looking for the easiest way to go fast we'd buy a newer Subaru Impreza and pocket the savings.

Oh, and someone mentioned that they wouldn't take an SPG if it was given to them. Fair enough: send them to me. I'm a glutton for punishment and don't mind piling a few more shortcomings on the list. I have a seven-pound Crown flywheel that would go with an SPG like peas go with carrots.

Is this the webster co. that was in Mill Vallley Ca. They are local to me and recently went under.