The Cal-look Lounge

How many of you are running any of the CB CNC heads on the street?  What have you noticed in terms of the heads holding more heat than a VW factory head?  Have you found that your motor is more difficult to cool due to the mass of material in the intake port area that has no means of air flowing through them like a stock VW factory head that has been ported?  If you had a choice, would you run the CB CNC heads on a street engine or a set of TIMS State 1 or Stage 2 heads?

Would be interested in everyone's feedback.  I figured there is a pretty good cross section of people on this forum that have run both.  I have always run welded VW heads in the past an never experienced any difficulty in cooling a big motor due to the fact you can still flow air through the head.  I see this as a challenge on the CNC heads that have the thick combustion chambers and solid intake port area.  I an only interested in people who have actually put the CNC heads on a street motor 2110 or larger and driven them for distances (Road Trips, etc.). Not interested in speculative opinions from those who have never run them.

Rick Mortensen

Geez Rick -- What a list of requirements --- But I guess I qualify -- Ran the Ultra Wedge ports on the Fiat with a 2165 and Turbo'd -- great heads -- flowed real well -- Made over 325 HP at 20 lbs boost -- wouldn't hesitate to drive the Fiat anywhere and never seemed to have heat issues -- -- ran 100LL aviation fuel in it all the time -- so my trips were limited to how far I could go on a tank of gas (7 gallon stock size tank)

 I run slightly reworked wedgeports they work fine. I feel you are overthinking these issues build it drive it beat it up smile repeat.

Jason,

I already built it and have 2500 miles on it.  It is the first large VW motor in 42 years I have not run modified VW heads on and I am having issues with temp. I drive my car in all conditions and in temps most people do not ever see in So Cal during the summers. So, my reasons for being concerned are legit.  My last large street engine had NO issues with heat and they were factory VW heads that were modified with all the correct cooling features still available.  Yes, you can drive the wedgeports on the street.  That is not the issue.  The issue is the mass of aluminum that fills the intake area and the combustion chamber area and acts as a heat sink without the same air flow going through the head that a factory head is capable of allowing.

My motors with modified VW heads could be driven in any conditions and not overheat on me ever (with jetting and timing all being correct).

RM

hi Rick

are you seeing high head temps or high oil temps? I have not got much experience doing big milage in temps like you get there but havent seen any problems with the 044 casting creating excesive heat in So cal or europe,when you had welded heads in the past were they not filled in there as well?

cheers richie

  LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!l LOL !!!!!!!!!!!!

  Frenchy

Richie,

I did not have the head welded all the way across.  Usually just the top of the runners.  I like the idea of having air flow over and around the port areas.

RM

I've had the same CB wedge port heads on my daily driver for 6 years now with zero problems, 2332 pump gas making 190hp and just built my sons 2332 with the Ultra Wedge ports making over 215hp on pump gas, they run cool on the street.

Frenchy, is probably trying to put some V-12 Flat Heads on a VW.

Agree, we run CB CNC heads on both our race car and street cars.  No problems with heating or durability.

Rick -- using your reasoning on filling up the hole is causing it to get hot -- that means I'm really screwed with my next street engine by using these cylinders

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss306/Fiatdude/pistonsandcylinders.jpg)

or these heads

(http://i586.photobucket.com/albums/ss306/Fiatdude/gettingclose.jpg)

This engine does run hotter than a stocker -- but the temps have never gotten to a point where I'm worried

That makes sense,so how high temps are you seeing?

cheers richie

FiatDude,
Talk about apples vs. oranges! Besides, the Angleflow and 4" bore was proven street combo by someone else ;)
And, aren't you running e85? Come on, give us a break ... not helping!


Rick,
There has to be another factor or overlooked adjustment, although hard to believe!
Those castings just aren't so terribly different from stock castings. BTW, my Fumios are welded between the ports as well with no problems, especially on highway cruises (rpm maintained 33-3500).
Perhaps timing adjustments can be tried first since it's the easiest adjustment to make (not including restting idle and synch). I know what you're up against without a dyno in my garage either :)
Hmmm ...
TxT

   Sorry you are taking this the wrong way Rick. I was laughing at Fiatdude post.

   Frenchy

Hi John how is your Dad doing?

Frenchy....Just yanking your chain too....all in fun! I am running a different ignition than in the past and could be having issues with that alone.  Have never run into this and not been able to sort it out.

RM

Have given up trying to run E85 -- it was playing hell with my fuel system -- Still thinking about it but would have to redo my tank and get rid of all my rubber fuel lines -- But it does drop the head temps by over 100 degrees

Nope back to running my airplane gas 100LL

Sorry to hear you're soured on E85, but I can't say I blame you. I re-checked my oem stock tank today and the rust line appears to be more of a stain than crusty corrosion. I'm trying some fuel additives that claim to prevent corrosion, wish me luck. I hope your AP's run cooler than my CE's did on gasoline. And you're right about the 100 deg cooler head temp. But unless I reconfigure my engine and lower the trans, the E85 will stay. GM and Chrysler have flex-fuel cars using engine management components not unlike your's, save for the tank, lines and software. I think you're really close to having a killer combination, loads of power without melting pistons.   

Isn't there an old adage about it being darkest just before the dawn.

Am I the only one who drives a VW big distances with a big motor?

Rick, my heads are the CB castings with the thick intake flanges.

I think the biggest reason they're reliable is all the extra mass everywhere, especially around the chambers.  Sure they have slightly less cooling fin area, but I think the mass helps offset this.

You can improve them.  Make sure you port the cooling fins.  Use your cutoff wheel to clean up the casting flash between the fins, beside the exh ports.  I also used lots of drills around the exh port.  I don't specifically remember about the area between the intakes, but if there's room, I drilled holes.
Another improvement you can make is to make a plate to go on the underside of the fins between the two cylinders.  Factory heads have a small steel piece there.  The CB heads have nothing.  This piece forces the cooling air that passes between the chambers to continue through the fins before dumping out.
On long trips in hot weather, I use a reinforced 36hp lower pulley to speed up the fan.

Although I don't have a head temp gauge, the highest I've seen the oil get is 260ºF, but that was a long time ago, and I don't go near that range anymore.

The worst I've subjected this engine was about 7-8 years ago, while in the Sonoran desert.  I held it at around 115 mph for 15 min.  I'm sure the heads got pretty hot then.....

Currently there's 70k miles on the engine.

Hi Rick. I regularly use 044s of all configurations right up to wedge. Never had a heat issue. One customer example is a 2276, 10.5:1 with fk87 and Ida's. No additional oil cooler and it runs perfectly normal temps with the oil rarely exceeding 100c and head temps in the safe zone. This car is driven street miles and on the strip where it runs mid twelves. I use all original tinware with the 'tents' lightly modded. I extend the Cyl head tins to compensate for the stroke. I also using the stock directional cooling vanes welded in the fully open position. I literally can't get this motor anyway near 'hot'.

Maybe there is another issue causing your excessive heat? From my observations even forgetting to fully push home the spark plug boots resulted in a 50f rise in head temps!

Possibly a lean condition?

Oh, and I always use race spec fully synth with zinc additive. Less friction = less heat to absorb... Cue dino versus synth debate...  ;D

Regards, Keeno

Chop top? I know this may sound daft,but were any of the other cars you drove big milage in chopped? the chop totally changes the way the air reaches the engine bay,I know someone who had the same problem in a chopped car with just a stock 1600,he was lucky enough to get it into a wind tunnel,and there he saw what was happening,the air travelling over the roof was now being forced away from the engine bay before it got there,it only got as far as the rear window,then turned upwards due to the shape there and the angle it hit the bottom of the window/rubber seal,it was causing the air to be sucked away from the engine and causing it to overheat

cheers richie

Hey Bruce,

No you're not!  :) I'm driving a 2,7l type 1.  What is "big distance"? In the summer months I'm  often on 100, 200, 300kms. trip and at least once a year it's a 1000kms. one.
I'm from northen Europa so we'er talking seasons here ( would NEVER expose my car to salt!!).
Of course we'er not packing the same heat as some of you guys,  ;) maybe 15 - 30deg. C...
My machine is running a 11.1 to 1 comp. And running on shell V-power (99) And my patience is not for driving under 120kms/hr.  on freeways of course ;D ;D  
and the oil never reaches temp. Over 100deg. C

Ohh... nearly forgot, my 64 is a shop-top!!! Ok ok... Only 5.5cm.  ;)
Sorry....... Couldn't resist!!!  ;D

cheers  magic

;D

044 on my car driven over 1500 miles a month every month no matter the weather, same heads since 2008, no heating issues I run Santana power pulley BTW

This is a great question / post!  I don't know if my engine qualifies.  I drive my car on occasion on 130 mile trips on the freeway with the engine turning around 4000 rpm. I live in Florida and humidity and ambient temperature can be high  for both. The terrain here is very flat, with no major grade to speak of. The engine is a 2110 82 X 90.5 - 8 to 1 compression, K10 cam, 48 IDA's, CB044 (42 x 37.5 valves) castings that were CNC ported to 870 type heads by the Bergs (I bought these heads from you RIck). I pushed the engine pretty hard once on the freeway going around 100 mph for 10 minutes if I remember. The oil light did flicker after about 8 minutes or so and when I slowed down to 65 mph (around 4000 rpm) it eventually went out. I don't have gauges so  I don't know what the oil or head temps were. In regular around town traffic the engine never runs hot with short high rpm bursts.  Hope this helps.

wow.. Totaly forgot the main question on the thread! ( and a interesting one!)
Abaut the heads, mine's JPM 230 4" ( more precise, machined for 102mm. JE pistons)
Who I think are superior in cooling, compared to some aftermarket raceheads,
say sf, ce, angle flo, or 910, and so on.
But not as cool running as a pair of 044!! (And that was the hole point)

magic

Jim, I'm curious how your car behaves on the "grapevine" (I-5) or do you take Rt.101 when you go to LA/OC?  If you take the I-5, do you pull the hills in 4th.?
Or spin it up in 3rd. at a lower mph.

Aluminum case?  or Mag?  I'm seeing higher temps (oil) with my aluminum case added cooler and all is good now though.   Hope I didn't piss ya of BTW.

While that is a pretty big engine, those are all short trips. ;)
Get your map out and locate Vancouver Canada.  Then locate Cancun Mexico.  Round trip is about 14,000km.  I think that trip was either 6 or 8 weeks.  On my last trip, I drove the Pacific coast highway to Acapulco, then back through Mexico City.  Elevations top 3500m, and temps approach 40ºC.
I usually watch the oil gauge and slow down when it gets to 230ºF (110ºC)
Oh ya, I forgot about Jim.  I bet he drives his car more than anyone else in the club.  :o  :o

This has been a fun post indeed.  I do long trips too Bruce. That last one and longest one for me was to Detroit, Michigan, and back to Phoenix.  I thought I could get quite a rise out of everyone on this one.  There is a big difference between driving 1500 miles a month...and driving 700-100 miles one direction.

My motor is a 2275, K8 Cam, 8.7 compression, with IDAs.  I have it running at 180 degrees. It will bounce up to 200-2010 if I beat it hard but it will come back down to 180 while cruising. It has a BERG wide 3.5  qt sump, type 4 cooler, custom made tin that fits tight with little air gap under the motor...so everthing exits to the rear.  I run a BERG stock size crank pulley and a 912 alternator pulley.  Gives the motor a little more air speed at a lower RPM.  I run a 3.88 ring and pinion and I am doing about 69mph at 3400 rpms.  At 3000 rpms I am around 63mph. The smaller alternator pulley helps keep the fan speed up at the lower rpm.

I am preparing the chop for a road trip to visit an old friend, Ray Vallero, and then on to  Kelly Park in April. I had a few challenges dialing in the COMPUFIRE DIS ignition set up where I wanted it but it runs fine now.

The chop top has not affected the cooling whatsoever.  The air stream still hugs the roofline and goes directly into the vents below the rear window.  We taped some pieces of nylon string to my roofline above the chopped rear window with duct tape and drove the car at 65 mph up grand avenue near where I live.  A friend followed on his motor cycle and said the nylon string literally was sucked into the vents below the rear window when we were at speed. So, the theory about the air not following the roofline (as designed by the original VW engineers) does not apply to my chop.  It still gets the air that flows over the roof into the engine compartment.

I did prop the bottom of my decklid out about 2" which helped the engine compartment with a little more air volume. Keep in mind that a 1300-1600 cc motor, with a 30 or a 34 pict carb does not suck as much air out of the engine compartment (through the vents above the decklid) as a 2276 air pump being fed by 48IDAs.  So, with all the air the motor is requiring, some of that air calculated for cooling is somewhat diminished.  The engine compartments need more air for the motor and for cooling.

Fun to hear everyone's perspectives.  Try driving one of those motors you've all talked about in Arizona when the ambient air is 110 and the pavement is 145 to 150 degrees. It takes a lot to drive a Hot VW in Arizona.  My issues were simple tuning issues but I sure got the conversation going with what I threw out! I am finishing up the final touches on my car...including HAL Meter to keep an eye on the A/F ratio on my trip. I carry a couple extra sets of jet stacks with different mains and air correction jets already set up for quick changes.  It will be interesting to see how my tune works from Arizona to Nor Cal and back with the IDAs.

Rick M

Wait, was this a rhetorical question?

Another question - If you have those heads on the street and 102 bore. How much air can get through the heads and cylinders ? What i mean is , how much power does your fan need when the air can not get out of the fan housing and how is the cooling under the heads and cylinders ?

Udo

UDO,

Great question.  When building these big motors stock tin fit is something to look at.  Keep in mind the tin was designed to go around an 85.5 barrel.  Does anyone look at the air gap around an 85.5 and they try to maintain that same gap around a 94mm barrel?  I bet it is something not to many look at.

Rick M

Because of this i only build street engines with max. 90,5 and heads that have some holes for air getting through the heads . When crusing it will work with other parts , but in germany you can go fast on the street . The head temperature goes up very fast when driving uphill with higher rpm's . this is what we found out 20 years ago  :)
When you drive slowly it does not make that much temperature
Also i found out that 94 bore makes more heat in the heads and the oiltemperature gets up .
Udo

Hey Bruce / Rick M.  

WOHOW...... You win this one for sure!!!!  :o :o ;D ;)
14000km....40*c....1000miles one direction...3500m elevations... WOW

(1)
Those trips you describe, they are taken straight aut of my dreams!!!
I really hope that I, just once in my life, get the opportunity/money for the classic roadtrip across the USA!!!!  But.. It will not be in a rented car, that's for sure!
It will be in a Beetle or an early Porsche!!! ( And the dream in a dream) :End the trip by shipping it home!!!

(2)
I don't think I will make that journy with an engine like the one I have right now!!!  :o :D
And now we're talking about dreams... No, I will begin another thread about dreams.........

Regards. Magic.

Hello Udo!

You're right! I've spent a great deal of time on the "tin"... There's no original oilcooler on a 2,7L type 1, as you're completely through the oilgallery between cyl. 3 and 4. So I had the opportunity to put extra air deflectors??? in the fan-shroud where the cooler used to be. I'm also using the original side-reflectors. They are modified to fit. Of course I also use the middle air deflector under the cyl. I have modified the fanshroud and cyl. shroud so there are no "leaks" at all!....  ::)
Sorry for my poor tech English!!

 Cheers. Magic

Hi again Rick M

I have had the same thoughts about the stock tin and 85.5 vs. 102mm barrel and yes, the gab is nearly non-exist on the 102 combo...
So here is my question for you all: Does the forced "extra" volume of air between the finn's(??  :-\  ).... equal the lack of air above them?

Regards Magic

Magic....In my opinion...NO.  The factory designed the motor to circulate air around the cylinders.  I took a lot of time when doing my tin work to ensure it has flow similar to what the factory created on the stock 1600.  UDO is right about the 94 and larger bores.  They do put more heat in the motor...but you can cool them if you get the air flow right. 

Hey Udo

There is a gap of aprox. 3mm. between the cyl. walls.
I'm constantly improving on the engine, and for this season I will make small holes in the heads. Including the space between the intakeports and combustion-chamber and valvetrine-chamber,
with a mini deflector underneath, like the original.
Fortunately the JPM heads are designed so it may be done, even on the 4" heads!! I know it's close, but it can just be done!
It's not much, but little is better than nothing... and if you have a lot of "them" it ads op...

Regards. Magic

sorry! double post....

hmm ... it's all a bit new to me! Can not delete my post ... sorry  ::)

Hi Rick M

 You and Udo are right about the big bore and heat. It is pure mathematics. Since a large circle has eksproportiornalt more surface than a small one. and in this case, therefore, more surface to transfer heat. This also applies to the cylinder heads. and of course the cyllinders and pistons! It's the physics all who will go for big bores must fight against. So once you've decided on a big engine, there's nothing else to do than to find ALL the small and big things that can help you the other way, toward the cold ... ;D. And then, my intuition tells me that I need to restrickt the airflow around the outsides of cyl.walls, to force more air flow in between them. in light of the lack of flow option with cyl. sit so close. And a street engine MUST have air all the way around!
 Anyway, I have nothing but intuition and ideas to back up my theories .... So I think it would be cool if anyone knows anything about this, or just has ideeres. let us know! as I said, "it's all the little details that count when they are put together.

 regards Magic

 P.S. I think I'll abduct this post to start a thread more specific about people's experiences with heat problems and solutions at 4 "engines. it's ok with you Rick M?

I see what you mean about the flashing.  I'm doing a pair of 044 roundports at the moment.  Here's some photos of the flashing - air flow holes seem a bit poor on these heads.  I've taken some shots of some old 311 heads - no flashing cleaned out.  Certainly the old VW heads seem better.

Here's the 311 between the chambers, the 044 with the plate added, the 044 inlet (no hole) vs the 311 inlet

And the 044 above the exhaust port (no holes) vs the 311 (4 holes).

I've drilled out existing holes a bit - has anyone been brave enough to cut through the inlet as in the vw heads.  Any pics?

I need to get a long reach thin grinder to clean out the flashing between the chambers a bit more.  Every little helps I suppose.

Cheers

All of this cleaning out the flashing helps. The VW engineers put air flow passages there for a reason. As with all aftermarket parts,  production volume and just turning parts is more important than the engineering aspects.  I see this in my Industry, non-VW related, where copycat parts are made and no one follows tolerances and critical issues.  They just want to get the parts out there to turn a profit.  That is all ok providing they are building something that meets original factory specifications or parts specifications.

The bottom line is that more care must be taken when assembling a modified motor and all issues, oiling, cooling, tolerances, product quality, etc., must be checked. This is what I appreciated about the BERGS approach over the years.  They have never assumed that the parts they receive are made correctly.  They do a quality check on cases, heads, etc., to ensure what they are helping you build your project around is correct.

Anything you can do to ensure proper flow around the heads and cylinders will help things work properly.

RM

Success!  After a careful measure up I've drillled a 6mm hole between the inlets.  As you say, it all helps.

Mount up your cylinder head tins. The hole pictured above is directly under the spark plug deflector, you know the upside down "V" that guides cooling air to the plugs.

Now, please tell me how that hole does any good at all.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm.....good question.

RM

Maybe not enough to measure, but it can't hurt.
I'd drill it bigger.

It is not only the holes in the heads , the bore itself heats up the engine. 94 makes more heat in the chamber than 90,5. what does 101 do ?
 It is also a different when only cruising or go on a german autobahn with higher rpm's

Udo

Hi Zach,

I just got some original head tins and mounted them to three sets of heads - original VW 311 heads, some 043's and the 044's.  On all three mountings there are some air gaps to provide air flow from the fan to this hole.  Even without any gaps the air would still flow over the v plate and then over and in to the inlet tops as a secondary flow.  It's difficult to describe where the gaps are - basically to the sides of the v cowling and a bit between the v and the side of the head.  It does seem that the V deflector may not be specifially designed to just funnel air through the hole - however it could have been an afterthought in VW design.  Either way there's definitely air going through the hole whent he fan is operating.  It would be interesting to ask the original VW engineers if they had any purpose for that hole when they made it in their dual port heads.

.... and it makes the heads lighter.  So there!

i found the same with my CB 044's horrible quality control. sat theme side by side with my spare V heads too and its a kick in the face lol

is anyone tempted to drill the fins in the heads? providing the hole is the correct size and actually increases area....?

::) ;D

While it does increase the area, it also reduces the heat sink mass without increasing the air flow.  All the work Phil has done has increased the air flow substantially, with an insignificant reduction in mass.
Holes in the fins are heat flow blockers.  The heat within the Al has to conduct around the hole, so the tips of the fins won't be able to reject as much heat.

good point, i was working on if the holes were smaller in dia then the fin was thick it would increase surface area.
maybe putting lots of semi circle grooves around the outside would help.... maybe its really not worth the hassle ;)

Anyone tested a cylinder head coated in a flat black paint for temp drop? Needs to be a non-Ceramic type paint, though...
A flat-black surface area dissipates heat better than a bare metal. A polished metal surface dissipates heat less than a matt metal surface (ie beadblasted). In the past I have beadblasted and flat blacked VW heads with good success. They need to be beadblasted in order for the paint to key properly.
Interestingly, the Jpm heads I am working on at the mo are coated flat black. Johannes is always On the ball  8)

Interesting Matt.  Also applies to rocker covers and pushrod tubes.  I'm planning on blasting Scat polished stainless Scat rocker covers at least on the inside, and paint black on the outside.  Ideally I suppose pushrod tubes should be black inside and out too.  I think over time any black paint may start to come off the inner surfaces and mix with the oil so best left unpainted there.  Cheers

Hi  Phil. You will need to blast the outsides of the stainless covers, too. They will need a good 'etch' otherwise the paint will flake off for sure  ;)
Cheers, Matt

Sure will do cheers!