The Cal-look Lounge

Is there anybody knowledgeable who can tell me about merging together Nissan and Bosch distributor to make a nice distributor for 2 coil/8 plugs setup? I´m wondering about twinplugging my 2276 engine...  ;D


Jan 

Hi!
Maybe rainer from orratech can help you, he builds some twinplug kits.
But you have to use goggle translate -> website is just in german.
http://www.typ4shop.de/index.php?cat=c4_Zuendung.html

Like this?
I came quite far but never finished it.
Can consider selling as I do not think it will be used.
Includes two pertronix trigger modules, extra cap and extra rotor.

(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/040520092543.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/040520092548.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/beautifieddizzy.jpg)

Are V8 MSD distributor caps bigger than ours?

Would be an easy swap (with some mods) if you want the plugs to ignite at the same time..

Do you want the plugs to light off at the same time? What kind of timing do you run?

Erland, count the plug connections.
There are 10 connections.
It is in fact two distributors in one.
You need two coil connections and a rotor that separates them as a double.
If you look at the rotor, you will also see that it looks different.

Yes, from what I've heard, identical firing points are most desirable.
You can back the timing off, but I'm sure every case is slightly different (depending on the combustion chamber) as with most any engine combination.
An excellent power improvement and MOST excellent for fuel mileage! I've heard of numbers going well into the 40s!

TxT

For simplicity it is always good to start firing at the same time.
Now in most cases an advantadge is found when offsetting the two sparks.

Any advanced ECU with posibility to run twinspark has this variable built in.
With a distributor system, it is also posible but slightly more dificult to find a smooth solution that is easy to adjust.

I myself have all the stuff to do a solution (copied) by triggering two CD boxes, one for first spark and I use a Mallory Hyfire, now the trick is using a Pertronix second strike for the other plug with an extra delay trigger option.
It fires a regular burn long duration spark and then with delay further triggers a short but strong CD spark.

Trying out these settings is probably only done well on a dyno.

I have an other solution. The distributor is a unit with two caps and a belt in between, trigger is from sensor on beltpuley, timing is adjustable and programmable via affordable ignition module. I`ll post some pictures when I have some.
Got a lot of those distributors so might put em up for sale.
Gives a realy cool look to the engine

Excellent solution and good you mention it.
Porsche has had double distributor but also this version.

Here is the cool but not so affordable solution from one of my friends.
Same thing you are talking about but pretty much billet home made.
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/BlownBoxer2007-11-24003.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/BlownBoxerEngine2008-01-15004.jpg)

Probably the easiest way to Twin Plug a VW if you are not switching to EFI with Ignition, would be to use a stand alone Cranck Trigger ignition that can fire  2 wasted spark coil packs at the same time.
Take a look at the Megajolt setup, this will work 10 times better than any Distributor as you will be able to program any amounts of advance you want with the 10 x 10 ignition map.

http://trigger-wheels.com/store/index.html

Cheers

One of my friends, J.Dalsgaard,is running this homemade system on his 1600i...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wwe1tesujw4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wwe1tesujw4)

(http://photos1.blogger.com/hello/91/2470/1024/air2.jpg)

(http://photos1.blogger.com/hello/91/2470/1024/air4.jpg)

Hello.
Twin plugging comes up every once in a while. Many tests over time has shown that performance wise there is very little gain in performance with bores less than 94 mm. The larger the bore the larger improvements (Generally spoken) Running domed pistons like f.i. the 616 engine is a different matter.
But wrt emission, you can clean up the burn significantly if the chambers etc are spot on. If you run a twin spark set up "straight up and out of the box" you may actually end up with a dirtyer emission. From what I have seen and read my way to (I have only been involved in 1 VW and 1 616 twin spark) it seems that flat topped VW engines like to have the lower plug fired first, then the upper plug fired 2 degrees retarded. The 616 likes a straight firing pattern.

15ish years ago there was a company in Florida I think, that turbocharged and twin plugged a 2,4 type 4. They claimed (after 2 sets of piston) to have found the sweet spot for their engine. and they claimed a 25 hp difference in max hp with the same boost between 1 & 2 plugs firing. We havent heard much about it since, so I do not know how steady the set up were after all.

A gentleman at Stauning Airport (small port just west of here) has built one of those super light performance plains used for high speed/fuel economy races. He has a modified 2100 cc  Limbach engine in that thing. He runs 1 full digit higher CR compared to stock.  He claims that by retarding the upper plugs firing by 2-3 degrees to the lower, he can stretch his fuel by 400 m/l. @ 110 mph. What that equals on pavement I have no clue. But it shows that there is a difference. He also says that this engine has "significantly more torque than a stock 2100 Limbach"

T

I havent tried yet but from what I have been told by a few guys I know that run twin plug T1 motors goes something like this...

If you were to take say a cookie cutter 2332 at 10 : 1 with an FK 87  dyno it on single plugs  then with no other changes change it 2 plug you probably wont see much improvement.

But take the same motor and twin plug it but throw 11.5. : 1 compression on it or perhaps even more..., my guys claim you can still run the same pump gas on it, and you will only need to run something like 25 degrees total timing.  The twin plug motor will Idle smother run just as cool  and have a lot more bottom end grunt. And of corse more top end power as you are now at 11.5 compression ( but still on pump gas)  BTW these guys fire the plugs simultaniously.

Something I plan to experiment with this winter just for fun, had hoped to try it this summer but just have to many Irons in the fire right now.

K-Roc

Stan pobjoy from Australia use twin-plug set ups for long time now ;)

Andreas.

Who needs twin plugs and for what ?

Udo

When you look at those - female - ignition parts you can get no power. Thake a good msd and you have more spark than any of those twin spark ignitions

Udo

On large bore like my own engine with 104 mm, it makes a lot of sense.
Both torque and horsepower is to be found.
Now it must be know and this is where I am pretty sure most poeple fail or lose confidence of hwo good it is, it needs extensive dynotime.

Have you done some back to back testing ? May be at yours but most people will find more hp with head work or cams than with 2 spark plugs :-)

Udo

One will never exclude another.

I work at a aircraft workshop and we sometimes do works on 5" bore engines (360-540 cui) with magneto ignition.
Those magnetos can make a spark strong enough to kick a dead hourse back to life ;) When we make the preflight
safety procedure it includes switching of one magneto at a time so we can hear that the engine is loosing power and
then the pilot knows that both systems are working before takeoff.
When both magnetos are working it's very noticeable when a magneto is switched off, the engine sounds like it's
running lean or limping. But it's not loosing too much power, the engine still makes enough power to bring the
aircraft back to landing safety.

I am not saying that twinplug set up are the only way to go on big bore engines but I am very sure it helps burning
the air/fuel mixture. MSD ignitions are very powerfull and a lot eaiser to use than any twinplug set up and MSD would
allways be my first choice of ignition system.  

BTW those flat 4 or 6 engines are fighting a lot with pitting in lifters and flat cams, but the worksshops have'nt seen
it as a oil related problem yet.... Nice to know that the aircooled VW scene is ahead of the piston engine aircraft scene
at least in this matter :)


/Rolf

Hi Rolf, Nice!
I built MFI (Malmö Flyg Industri) airplanes for four years during 1975-1979. In fact we sold 30+ to your airforce and I also worked in Vandel/Billund modifying them. Maybe you have worked on the same ones? T34...is my memory right?
That is how I started building the PANK dragster as the first drag race in Malmö was right on our flight strip Bulltofta.
Avco Lycoming 360 had min 50 rpm difference as specifications on the tarmac idle check with one or two magnetos.
:-)

Hi Frallan,

Oh it must be the SAAB T-17 Supporter. The danish air defence bought 32 of them in 1975.  Most of them are still
flying and said to be in good shape. So you have done a good job on them :)  I work at Thisted Airport for Sun-Air/
British Airways and we also have dragracing at our flight strip :)

/Rolf

Hi Frallan,
Oh it must be the SAAB T-17 Supporter. The danish air defence bought 32 of them in 1975.  Most of them are still
flying and said to be in good shape. So you have done a good job on them :)  I work at Thisted Airport for Sun-Air/
British Airways and we also have dragracing at our flight strip :)
/Rolf
[/quote]Right on! Cool.
Saab Supporter/Safari MFI 17 and so on.
I have a couple of crashed pictures on those green ones too...and the helicopter squadron took us for some crazy rides in the Hughes 500. I also participated in building a prototype composite new design wings incluidng test flying. Very cool.
Wow..memory lane.

One more. We sold the license to Pakistan. Then 30 years later I end up living in Lahore and see them fly everyday. New name though. Mushak or Super Mushak with 6 cylinder

Back to twin plugs. :-ö)

(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/123695.jpg)
(http://www.keversite.nl/fotoalbum/fotos/123702.jpg)

(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/BlownBoxer2007-11-24003.jpg)
(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/BlownBoxerEngine2008-01-15004.jpg)


Exactly what Classe Ebbenäs did with his solution. Small cogbelt drive in between these two.
He built that in 1986.
Now he was not first.

I have seen much older versions too, with twin 009 shortened distributors similar to the one in your post ruffbiker.

Well I would never use an ''expensive'' distributor for this. My body races old alfa s we have build a 2.0 liter twinspark engine for that and used a crank triggered programmable ignition for that. We were a little bit hesitate to use it (old fashion guys '' stick to what you know'' carbs and distri).
But I can tell you it works remarkable easy and fine.
We use a OMEX system, I can tell you it is more affordable then most people would think. If I would change my ignition I buy a OMEX system(ready for twinspark) directly.
My 2 cents..

Regards Edgar

Do not misunderstand me either.... I have a nice DTA S60 just now on my "lab" table That I am playing with. (As for electronic fuel injection, I bought my first set in 1989 from Richard Bendall in Melbourne, inventor and owner of Motec at the time. I think that is pretty cool)
8 coil on plugs are being tested soon.
I am only selectively conservative.