The Cal-look Lounge

Ok guys, this is one of those questions that so many people will have so many ideas or answers too that will have us all arguing no doubt.

So basically, take your average street driven car that can be driven for let's say at least 50 mile's to a race track, raced and driven home again. It cannot use any exotic fuels such as E85 or Race Blend. It has to use unleaded readily available to the pumps and in the UK that means up to 99 RON. This car would be street legal so have functioning lights and wipers and brakes on all corners. It doesn't run a spool or pro-rings in the transmission but can have any ratios and an LSD or ATB. You cannot use any performance adders like supercharged / turbocharged / Nitrous.

At the racetrack you can remove the fanbelt,choose to replace the muffler with a stinger and choose to run DOT's or slicks. But you must mention this is your feedback. If you don't we'll assume you are running with a fanbelt a muffler and street legal radials.

I've picked 11 seconds as that is still my personal goal yet to crack. Most of us these days know what it takes to run easy 13's and even 12's but to easily get much quicker is a heck of a lot tougher. But the same question could easily be for 10's / 9's.

Considering the multitude of engine configurations and components out there,can we simplify to some basic must have's ?

Ok, discuss and let's see if there is some commonly held beliefs around the global VW racing community  ;D

Cheers

Shane.

Built a good 230 hp 2,3 type1 engine and a gearbox that has close gears and is strong enough for dot's or slick tires

Udo

more seat time   :D

What cam and compression ratio would you recommend?  In my stock weight '68 Beetle, I'm currently running a 2332 cc, close gears, with JPM heads flycut for 10.7:1 CR, IDA's, etc and have gotten into the high 12's with both a Web 86C (12.8 ET) and a Raptor cam (12.9 ET), but that seems a long ways from 11's.

Why is it slower with the Raptor cam?

Shane, I really believe you will run that 11. Just realised I completely forgot to call you a few weeks back, sorry.

Lee

Sounds like a very cool, yet stout goal.
My '69 with a 2276 has run 12.58, though I think it has more in it ... or should I say less? ;)

As for the 11s, I'd say it would take 235-240 hp to get an all steel, street legal, (non-butchered) sedan Well into the 11s, like 11.80s.
If you want to do it a bit more easily I have only 3 words ...

Four Inch Bore!

 ;)
TxT

I  went 11.92 last weekend.

2332 with a FK87 and wedgeports built at 10.5:1, runs pump gas, or sometimes a pump/race mix. I can drive it all around town and have driven it on several 20 mile drives, can't say I've gone 50. It has a 4.12 r/p stock first and second with 1.48 3rd and 1.14 4th. Fourth gear makes long drives tough. the car with me in it weighs 1700 lbs.

Propylene Oxide.  ;D

Cool pic Chuck

Hi Chuck,

It was me who bought the header from you recently. What a great car/pic.

I've ran 11.94 in my street oval but it's pretty basic inside with no interior but is fully road legal and drove 25 miles last saturday without it getting hot etc. Mine is 2276, wedgeports, FK87 and 10.3:1 with the same gear ratios iirc so that is clearly a great combo.
The key for me is car set up, I regularly see low 1.5 sixty foots which although are not super quick it all helps get closer to the 11's.

Really must weigh my car, will head to a weigh bridge next week, people think my car is super light but it's all steel and runs full cooling etc

Lee

Hey Lee you may have done 25 miles in your car. But the car did more miles then that.  :P

Martin, there were two reasons I knew you hadn't driven it:

1. Your not tall enough for the current seat position
2. It was still in one piece/not broken after you said you drove it ;)

Lee

Lee-

You have a very similar car! To be fair, I did tow bar my car to the track. It's a quite a drive for me, and I am lazy. The car has no back seat, just a delete panel and the fronts are lowback aluminium racing seats covered in fabric.

Yes Lee, that header and stinger do have slight flat spots from being used as a wheelie bar in the past ;)

You need good heads and i would recommed a CB 2296 . FK91 cam . We did a best of 11.5 with our black car - sorry Tom but only 230 german hp . Neil i think your biggest problem is the 60 feet time

Udo

Awesome accomplishments guys!
My problem is 1950 lbs. for my '69! What weight are You running, Udo?
Take out my squishy-comfortable interior? Nah ... I'll get there come hell or high water ...  ;)
TxT

We had 1860 incl driver

The 2296 is a great cam, I have run my best times with that cam. I know I said I have a fk87, but it is actually a cb 2289. that is their version of a fk 87

 I have gone 11.60 at 117mph in a 2200lb ghia with me in it. 2442  with super squishy piston,comp e heads,berg 5 speed trans.I have about 8000 street mile on the motor.
I plan  on going on the 2013 Hot Rod Power Tour with a couple other vw.This will be around a 1600 mile drive to prove your car is a true street car.
You will be able to run you car at 5 different race track,to fine your overall time.

Hey Robkong. The tour you mention sounds really interesting. Can you give any more details please? Would like to know more about it if possible. Cheers, Matt

Hot Rod magzine has put on this event for the past 10 year. The 2012 power tour had over 2000 car.
Hot Rodder from all over the world came to this event.Some rented vetts and camaors to make the drive.
Just Google  power tour or Hot Rod power Tour.
Richie webb was the one who got me thinking about going.
I do not think a vw has ever competed in this event. As of now we have 4 vw going,3 turbo.

Hey all,

Thanks for sharing and very impressive you guys !

Lee, no problem dude we will catch up soon.

I also think careful, maybe trial and error setup to the way the car launches and also choosing the right clutch combo to ensure a 60ft in the 1.5's or better is key and maybe more important than overall power from motor ?

Reason I say this is I have been trying all season with my 2332 which made 228bhp at the flywheel no cooling when first built and dyno'd so should have plenty of power and was built to run 11's ( my goal ) However my ET's have not been too consistent, with a one of best of 12.2, several 12.3's several 12.5, all without cooling and through Muffler on DOT's at 15 psi and then with belt on same setup the rest have run quite a few 12.6's up to 12.9's.

My 60 ft's have been much more consistent throughout the season from best 1.67 to worst 1.80 with typically 1.67 to 1.72  Have played with tyre pressures and launch rpm's too.

I am wondering if my clutch combo ( KEP2 and kushloc ) is just not good enough when under load with over 200 horses ?
Am also wondering if wearing slicks would hook up much better than my old DOT's ( bought them used so unknown history ) ?

What I really wanted was to have a NA motor built that could easily run 11's even if I was having a lazy off day with my launches. Basically so it would be a second faster than it is running low to mid 11's on a consistent and good day with high lazy 11's like 11.9's on an off day.

I wonder if to achieve this easily with any average street and strip ratio's and a car where no effort has been made to particularly lighten it so it's typically all steel and glass with maybe a stripped race theme interior, an typical stage 1 / 2 KEP and Daiken disc combo then realistically even with 60 ft of say 1.8 you would need to be making 250 flywheel horsespower plus ???........................

The clutch and tires you use now is good for your gearbox :-) If you change to a harder one take car of the tansmission

Udo

I'm not sure easy 11's is the way to look at this, as N/A street driven 11's are not "easy" by most peoples standards, that said you can certainly do it with what you have in terms of power. 228 is plenty for 11's, so assuming you have gear ratio's to make the most of what you have and you get some more time in the car its difficult to imagine you can't run regular 11's. 
In terms of the clutch I would say less is more, I've always run my best 60 ft's with either some wheel spin or clutch slip to keep the motor well up in the rev range of the line and for the first 10-20ft. I suspect given the motor size you have a good drop of torque to go with that power so you should be able to knock off a 10th / to 10th and a half off what you are doing currently if you get it all right.
Saving a bit of weight in the car would help too, which you can certainly do without having to cut the car about.
I'm sure you appreciate its about combinations and getting it all to work together small adjustments can make a big difference.
Keep at it and I'm sure you'll get there and when its done enjoy the drive home!

Peter

Thanks Peter.

Well that is what I thought too that power in the 220-230 bhp range would be plenty. The torque figure was 194 ft/lbs measured from flywheel. So on paper you would think well into the 11's wouldn't you. But I have tried hard all year and my 60ft's just haven't been good enough. Interesting your remarks about the clutch choice. My gear ratios are probably not ideal but they are not terrible. It is a street and strip box with stock 1st / 2nd. Not sure on 3rd and 4th as Pete couldn't recall what was fitted. I'd say the 4th feels like maybe a 1.09 or 1.14 and the R+P is 4.12

Yep as mentioned at the start. There are so many motor / tranny / suspension and tyre combo's. It's about finding the "right one" for the car in question, which is why I said I don't believe power is everything.

A good example. Today DannyBoy in Lil Lizzie ran a 12.1 at 110mph on one of his NA passes on a colder unprepped track and I think he has run well into the 11's naturally aspirated on a good track day. His motor "only" makes around 190 bhp NA at the flywheel. His R+P is a taller 3.88 with close gear sets. He runs DOT's a KEP2 and a Daiken. The car is lighter than mine but not vastly so. Now Danny is a good pilot for sure but his car always sounds so strong and never misses a beat mechanically, just keeps getting quicker and launches and hooks up very well.

Hopefully it will all come together for me next season and I can drive home smiling !

Cheers,

Shane.

Peter your car does not count , it is too lightweight :-)

Funny you should say that Udo, as all the things I seam to be doing to try and make it go a little faster seam to be making it heavier! I'll get it back on the scales when its in one bit again, but I hope the performance gain out weighs the weight gain once its done!

Shane, I was 60fting the 1776 in the low 1.6's all the time with a best of 1.60 when I was running a 4.125 R&P with a stock 1st and 2nd, so with your torque and HP figures assuming your car is not really heavy you should at least be able to match that and when you have it all sorted beat it quite convincingly I would have thought.

Practice makes perfect but if you haven't got any data logging going on and or the slow-mo video you get at the pod these days to tell you what the car is doing I would get on to it next year. The data logging was a real eye opener for me. I was initially interested in the lambda readings, but soon realised there is a lot to learn from the rpm curve through the gears, particularly as you have a dyno plot so you know what power you are making where Maximise the area under the curve).

The nice thing for you is you have all the key parts there, you just need to get them together a bit better and some more seat time.

I'm sure you'll have fun trying regardless,

Good luck!

Peter

Cheers Peter,

No idea what my car weighs. Take a stock 57 Oval, remove the stock interior and fit a cro-moly Cotsweld 6 point chassis tied cage and lightweight Corbeau Race seat and harness  ;) It isn't super heavy for sure. I haven't made any attempt to lighten the body or chassis etc. The only concession would be raceweight Erco rims. I have tried varying launch rpm's and the 60ft's always hang around 1.67 - 1.72. Hell maybe the DOT's aren't hooking like they should. I have never experienced a "bogging" feeling when the tyre grips hard that's for sure.

I don't have any data logging and people that have watched me launch always comment how the care looks to launch well with a nice amount of squat off the line. Who knows. Bloody frustrating though !!

Your 1776 was a cracker for sure. I remember when Ian was interested that my old 1835 made 169 bhp on Dells, then he went and whipped my arse with the 1776  ;D

I also heard as Udo mentioned that your car was " super light " and we know that will help to some extent.

Anyway thanks to everyone who has chipped in so far with ideas and clues.

Cheers

Shane.

That is not good. May be you get some more cc then :-)

1,6 is good for DOT tires . And they save the gearbox
Udo

1.45 on dots with a good track  ;)

Answer: You Dont..!!  Not an easy task(to run easy 11's) as discussed, however with... 1) a light car (1400lbs)and 180hp and old school traditional gearing (i.E) 4:37/158/121....   2) or  turbo/if you get frustrated(I read your beginning statement).... you can achieve your goal with a lot less effort.

lol ive been telling him to add gas all year run easy mid 12s then add gas and run easy 11s  :D
but he wont listen  ::) ;D

Dyno hit the nail on the head ;D  simply put,  "you don't " its alot of work unless you can pay someone to do the work for you,or do as others have done,buy a 10 second car from another country and by the time it gets to england you will have an 11 second car ;) ;D

The best piece fo advice i have is " loose any stupid self inflicted limitations" we all have them, if you want a car that you can drive on the street and run 11s, do what it takes, I wouldnt recomend to anyone to take advice from Danny :o :o ::) :D, but if you want a street car with livable gearbox ratios then you need to have a power adder for the track or run 32inch tall rear tyres on the road so you can live with the stupiod short gearing you need to run 11s N/A ;)


Hi Robkong, see you sunday?  :-* 

Matt, search for Hot rod drag week,then search Larry Larson :o

I was keeping quiet about my plans,but the basis of it will be a JPM headed turbo engine on E85 as its readily available in the areas they run the event




cheers richie 

I know it's not easy from my own personal experiences and my subject heading was intended to be a little " tongue in cheek " but with the hope it would get people talking as to how feasible it is. I remember when I was running 13's here in the UK in a street and strip fully road legal bug and that was fast in it's day here but we all want to go faster and like many other similar racers at the time Richie and Matt, our goals soon became who would be be first to run in the twelves. This was years ago now and we all achieved that in the end and obviously both Richie and Matt chased the numbers and maybe set aside any personal limitations to do so and hey presto guys you have run low 9's and now chasing 8's eh Richie  ;D

My point is when I was running 13's I longed for 12's and at the time people said without NOS or Turbo then no way, you need to be very light car of making serious power that from the commonly used parts available at the common low CR's people believed you couldn't cross and run on the street as decreed by the late great Gene Berg among others, some of us pushed those limits and started to use parts only previously deemed as " drag race only " on the street fairly reliably for day to day use ( not withstanding long term longevity that a stock motor would offer ).

So fast forward a bunch of years and there are so many products now on offer especially with cylinder heads and so much new and innovative design from people like JPM then is it really so unreasonable to long to run effortless 11's naturally aspirated in my street legal and street driven stock weight bug with close ratio box ? I used to run 1.58 / 1.21 by 4.12 with a low profile 60 series tyre on the street all the time. Sure cruising speed was limited to around 45 mph but hey it was a trade off I was happy to make to run fast at the track  ;)

Danny - yes mate I hear you and that would be the " easy solution" Look at what 100 shot of NOS has done for you. It's awesome and undeniable. I guess Richie, this is where my pwn personal limitation holds me back as I am stubborn in the fact for me the use of NOS was always to be the icing on the cake and not the easy way out. I wanted to run 11.8's with the belt and muffler in place then use  a 30-50 shot of NOS to pull me into low 11's

I always admired and wanted to pilot a car that performed like Dave Mason's black bug. That car is one of my earliest inspirations as I'm sure it has been for many along with what Muffler Mike Sheldon was accomplishing before the switch to Turbo to name just two guys that for me epitomised what I wanted to achieve.

Cheers

Shane.

you know that only runs 11s with the nitrous switched on right?

cheers richie

This is a great question. I agree with the experienced forum members on this one - It's not easy. I only think it would be easier if you went through the learning curve and have done it already.

My thought process / questions:
1.) Do I have enough money?
2.) Mathematically, how much power do I need?
3.) What do I have to do to the chassis, brakes, cage, etc?
4.) How should I tune the chassis to hook up at the track and drive on the street?
5.) Do I have the brains, ability, know how, resources, and time to do the work properly / safely and tune and maintain the car?

If you're lacking in 2 - 4 , do you have a lot of money?
Even if you had a lot of money, I think having an 11 sec street car and not knowing what's going on with it / how it works / how to maintain it, you would have a tough time owning ,driving and enjoying it. Just my opinion.

ALL good points, Jeff!
For me, not knowing would make the ride last a very short time! ;)
TxT

Build A PRO GAS car....  back down the compression and perhaps gear it a little less nervous.  Tony Klink ran 9 ish c/r  oval ports.. a step or two down from the PG wedgies.. 11.44 at 1750 pounds with his street car before he put the PG heads on it.Three of these cars at 1730-1750 pounds and mucho comp are in the TENS. Off the rack CNC stuff rocks...

Now the question was "EASY" 11s ...

I revert back to my original comment:

4" BORE!!!

Simple daily driver by day, HOLY TERROR at the TRACK on Friday & Saturday Nights!!!

... just make sure your drivetrain can support 250+ ftlbs of TORQUE!

 ;)
TxT

Tom, as far as a simple easy to build car, it really don't get a whole lot easier.. If you saw Tony's car before the latest chassis work, you would be amazed at how simple.. As i stated above, at 1730-50 pounds these cars are in the TENS.. order it today have it next week long block pieces ready to assemble in your spare time. Klink ran a 9.3 or so compression with the smaller than Wedge ports.. an off the shelf Engle and full street equipment..Ran 11's .build that kit, put it is a decent car,and ... Take a little compression out, gear it for a little less buzz.. and you have your 11 second machine. 5 or six guys running the CB 044 PRO GQAS class have gotten low 11's high tens...  with  cam compression and 1750 pounds.. take a little weight out...

A few lights and things .. .. .. I thunk your there with this

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1337349

I have found it not too easy to get an 1800 pound combo in the 11s, I have done it 1/8 mile with sub 7.60 (7.46 best) passes but on race fuel and a fair amount of compression. (All it takes is $$) I have a few 30 mile trips on it. If it is not mid summer the temps stay under control. I have a couple things to do to the car, and intend to get an 11 second slip before our track closes this year.

I have done it with Comp e's and now with a stock style (044) head. Both With Udos lifters. ;D

I think lack of testing has been my biggest drawback. I run the car at our club races (Aircooled Streetcar Association), and I am not in an analytical frame of mind at that point, more like a panic frame of mind. As our desire to stomp each other into a mudhole increases I am going to have to run the car, test more.

Chuck it is cool to see that your new car is done. The green one was inspirational to me after I bought my car 7 years ago after kinda retiring from dragbikes.

Cool thread. you don't see too much streetcar stuff on UAC.

just to clarify, no fanbelt, spool and DOTs. all street equipment but wipers.

Last year my PB in my beetle was 12.3, this year I've swapped to raceweight ercos front runners & slicks(6"), and sorted launch control to pin point launch RPM every launch - and my PB now is 11.85.
My car is steel bodied '71 beetle, glass but with only drivers seat.
I run a 206 bhp 1914 turbo motor.
I know our engines are different, my point is slicks gave me quite a bit  :)

Hi DD,

Now your comments are interesting and the sort of feedback that could prove useful to me. Using new 6" slicks over my old DOT's was one thing I was seriously pondering and the use of launch control another. It is interesting you have have tried these and feel happy to attribute your drop in ET's quite considerably as well to this combo.
So that poses another question, which is, does the launch RPM make a big difference to your ET ???

I currently don't use launch control and blip the throttle at the tree keeping the motor buzzing around 5-6000 rpm before releasing / sidestepping the clutch trying to find a happy medium between bogging and too much wheelspin....

Cheers guys for all your thoughts and feedback so far...

Shane.

I hope it is OK that I jump in to answer your questions above. The answer is YES! The launch is by far the most important area and where you should focus your efforts. A poor launch and you can just as well abort the run unless you are not one of the very few lucky ones without enough power to make up for a poor start. So what is a good start? Anything above 1.55 and you have work to do if you ask me.. 

 

Hi Shane,

Have you considered one more idea, I use M+H front runners as well as slicks. Sure thats worth something in you quest for 11's.

Hey BB,

Sure , no problem jumping in at all. Ok, so with my 5-6000 rpm launches, blipping the throttle as mentioned and running 14-15 psi in my DOT's my 60ft' are always 1.66 - 1.72 even if the tyre pressure is up to 17psi, I haven't noticed much difference....so I am a long way off 1.55 or better as it stands. I would guess either the kushloc is offering too much slippage before hooking or the DOT's aren't gripping like they should as my reactions always seem good even against for example my buddy Dannyboy who runs 10.79 with 1.45 60ft's.

Lee,

Thanks for chipping in. No, I haven't thought about frontrunners although I know some of you guys use them. Do they really make a significant difference then ? Or is it a case of every bit helps....

Cheers

Shane.

s

OK, at least you know where you should focus. Get that 60ft down and your ET will improve. One thing is for certain, the MH DOTS offer excellent grip on a good strip and my best 60ft with them is 1.42 (full weight 67) Several others are between 1.45 to 1.50. I also used to run with 14 - 17 psi but I found big improvements with going lower and the 1.42 was set with 13 psi. You need to dentify if you have wheelspin or clutch slip.

Good luck!

You

Now I know one of the reasons my life is so much harder ... by my own guidance!
I guess we just have different ideas of what makes a streetcar ;)
#1 - mine won't have slicks ... they aren't Legal Here.

No BIG deal!
TxT

I have no data as such to say front runners make the car quicker, but the car went from 12.1's to 11.9's by changing to front runners but also to bigger Jaycee stacks and fuel inlets (all 3 changed at once)

Sure more experienced racers may have a view?

Also, I launch at a lower rpm, 4600-5000 I keep it at those revs using handbrake preloading the box, then foot to floor when handbrake goes down. I also remember your car sits a bit lower than mine at the rear?

Lee

You should not mix radial tyres with bias ply,so running slicks really requires matching front runners,and they are light,

If you are not launching with your foot to the floor you are giving away ET,and the only way to do that is with a 2 step,my belief is that you want to launch at a high enough rpm that when the clutch engauges the rpm does not drop below the max torque so approx 5500rpm,this means you need to leave at around 6800rpm in alot of cases,that is were I start with on the 2 step setting,then move up or down depending on wether the car bogs or spins the tyres.Blipping the throttle is just throwing alot of un needed fuel down the intake and your not anywhere near max performance,unless you have a stupidly short 1st gear it will just bog if you have any traction,beliive me I did this for years and the 60ft gain was huge by leaving on the 2step

cheers richie

this is the first on my list of things to sort for next season  :)

Thanks Richie, that is very interesting ! Clearly my technique is costing me dear on ET's as I am not using a two step ( yet ) and know I am not flooring the throttle when I launch. Maybe overly cautious old habits are costing me those 11's for sure then.....hmmmmm lots of food for thought for 2013  ;D

Cheers, Shane.

Its actually very easy to make a low 12 second car run in the elevens..... do what i do, let someone else drive....... ;D

My PB is still 12.01......

Yes, it is amazing how much seat time and minor tuning can help.. jetting, timing, tires pressure, wheel alignment and lunch and shift RPM are all part of dialing in a car..Even little,seemingly insignificant items, like seat adjustment ,and footwear can have an effect....From first lap to dialed in I have never failed to find several tenths with just little changes..5-7 tenths is the norm...f you want to go quicker and faster.. spend some track time.. take a friend with a video cam and a few tools and some jets. A lot of guys have no idea what they should shift at.. and thus shift too high...the engine wants to works where it wants.. not what you think it should be. 

Dragging this thread back up.....

Weighed my Beetle today, bang on 680kg which is just under 1500lbs by my maths. That is without driver and 1/4 tank of fuel

Lee

Hey Lee, Does that mean your Oval is light ? I'm not aware if you have done anything to your bug to lighten it from stock ? I need to find somewhere to easily take mine for a weigh in. I looked up the what is supposed to be stock 57 Oval kerb weight and a couple of sources suggest 740 kgs.....?  I also recalled that USA pounds are different to UK pounds when doing conversions to kgs from USA quoted weights in lbs......

So assuming your Oval weighed around 740 in stock form Lee, do you think you could have shed 60 kgs from the car ?

Think Dannyboy's Lil Lizzie ( ex Hembug ) was weighed at 690 kgs without driver and minimal fuel. Chip in Danny if this is not correct but interesting to compare weight with Lee's as I know you have carried out some lightening of panels and windows and sheetmetal in places with racing fuel tank.

Lee, do you still run stock Oval fuel tank and all steel panels / bodywork / window glass ?

Cheers,

Shane.

Hi Shane,

Car is all steel, stock fuel tank, wipers, horn etc. Has lexan windows and ali floor pan washers and wing bolts.

Lee

Hi Lee,

Ok cool. I wonder how much weight is saved with Lexan ( what sides / doors ? ) and your ally washers and bolts.....?   Interesting guessing you never weighed before and after as it were

Cheers

Shane.

Saved 5.9kg with the bolts, cooking scales came in handy  ;D

Lee

690 without driver full tank of fuel and full bottle of gas  bottle of gas is about 12kgs i think and my car is all steel apart from bonnet and decklid /lexan windows

is there some kind of a rule when you lighten your car compared to the time on the 1/4 mile.
i mean how manny kg do you have to lose to go 0.5sec faster for example?
off course whit a big engine i don't mean stock.

henk!!!

It seems to be a ratio of weight lost to speed gained,but 100lb from a stock weight bug should gain you 0.2 to 0.3 of a second at least,as an example a 1900lb bug with 200hp calcs ET of 12.34@108mph,at 1800 lb with the same 200hp it calcs at 12.12@110mph,at 1700lb 11.89@112mph,1600lb 11.65@115mph.

I used this 1/4 mile calculator to get these results

http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php


Its not the gospel ,but fairly accurate

cheers richie

Thanks Richie,

So if my bug weighs 1500lbs and I'm just over 14 stone, that equals 1700ibs in total ;D

I have ran 11.94 at 110 so the calculator looks almost spot on as I assume my 2276 has around 200bhp.

So if I save 100lbs, I'm 0.2 quicker!!

Lee

yeah i reckon it looks pretty close i make mine 1964 with me in it and pb is 11.8 off the gas and i reckon im under 200 as the belt was on and dyno says 175fwhp with belt  :)

thank richie,

interesting link,time now to weigh the car and see how much horsepower it has.
then have a look what it could be when i lighten the cars.

henk!!!

13 pounds. 

Washers to the floor pan. Kept the stock bolts?

Aluminum washers and bolts to the "wings"?

That's amazing. Guess I'm gonna get some.

I am allowed another 75 off the car but I don't want to cut it up.

690kg =1518lbs












I am thinking you meant 1694lbs total? not 1964lbs?





One thing to remember is as the MPH goes up as you lighten it your finish line rpm goes up,if it wont rev that high then you wont see the gains,at the same time if your gearing is to tall right now as you lighten it you will gain more as it will pull the rpm that it wouldn't before to overcome the weight


cheers richie

yes mate 1694 with my fat arse in it :D

Hi

In my opinion there are two things that can your car propell deep into the 11's.

1. There is no replacement 4 displacement, so move to 4 inch bore
2. Is the weight transfere: so put 25lbs of a blue bottle in your car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYTvsVQviXU&feature=player_embedded

MeXX

Here is my take on an 11 second NA street beetle:

2387 with JPM MS230 heads, 51,5 IDA and FK89.
VW mag case and stock oil cooler only. Runs on regular pump gas.

The car is a full weight mostly stock 1963 type 1 (all glass, stock seats, mats, doorpanels, but with a rollbar and lowered front end)

It will run high 11s with a close ratio gearbox (3,88 r/p and 1,26 4th), MH dots, muffler and w/o fan belt.

I have driven it almost 100 miles each way to and from the racetrack many times, often carrying my gear in the backseat.

My philosophy has been to try to keep the car itself as close to stock as possible, avoid unnecessary complicated solutions, and use quality components that are known to work.

Enclosed is a photo of the car from BugRun Sweden 2011 and a timeslip.

The engine has dynoed 245 hp with muffler and w/o fan belt.


regards

Nils

Nice car and setup! Only stock oil cooler enough on highway trips?

Hi Nils,

Now that is what I am talking about !!  :D To me you have succeeded exactly with the format I have been using in my quest for high 11's N/A.  Your motor makes good power indeed.  I am curious why you chose a 3.88 Ring and Pinion in a relatively heavy car though. What are the rest of your gear ratios and your 60ft's ?  In my old 83 Mex, I ran a 3.78 / 2.25 / 1.58 / 1.21 by 3.88 and struggled with my 60ft's compared to my old 1.21 4th and 4.12 in my 63 bug and it actually felt slower off the line. Admittedly the 83 was heavier as full street and full interior, a real sleeper.

Out of curiosity with your MS230's / FK89 / pump fuel, what Compression Ratio do you choose to run with ?

Cheers

Shane.

Whoops, just noticed your 60 ft's on the timeslip ! :D

1.60 is decent and 6 tenths better than my best on DOT's

I think getting away at the tree is definetly an issue for me and holding 11's away from me.....

Shane,

Why don't you buy the slicks Udo is selling in 'For Sale' Cheap enough to give it a try :)

Lee

Thanks, and yes, only stock oil cooler and have never had a problem with the car overheating on highway trips. The MS 230 is a good street head! It probably also helps that it usually doesn't get very warm in Norway :-)

Hi, the reason for the 3,88 is that it is typically stronger than a 4,12. I currently have a 4,11 first which actually feels a bit short at times. After launching I will hit the rev limiter (7900 rpm) quicker than I like and may therefore try a longer first gear in the future. Second and third are 2,46 and 1,65 if I remember correctly. CR is around 10,5 but could have been higher. Next engine combo may have higher compression and a few other mods. Would be nice to have 270ish streetable horses :-)

Thanks for sharing Nils. That's interesting feedback on gear ratios. Thought about a long 1st myself a few times over the years but haven't tried it yet. Ok, re strength of 3.88 over 4.12. I always kind of thought of the 3.88 as best suited to a either a "light weight" car or Nitrous car but hey whatever works. Your still getting good 60ft's with it and that's all that matters. I wonder how much difference the close 1st and 2nd combo makes to the 60ft even with a "taller" Ring and Pinion.....?

Wow, your CR is conservative and definetly more " street ". Makes your motor power even more impressive to me. Well done. Those MS230's must work really well !  ;D

Cheers

Shane.

I can also vouch for how cool the MS230 heads run.  My 2332 cc, 10.7:1 CR, IDA's, Raptor cam, 91/94 octane pump fuel uses the stock OEM FI doghouse cooling only.  After two years, it seems to run at about the same temperatures as the stock engine...but much more fun at the track ;)  These might be the last set of heads that I ever buy...

Hi Neil,

That's good feedback too on the MS230's for a racer that wants the car to be streetable  :D

Correct me if I'm wrong please but didn't you used to run something like a webcam 86c in that motor and simply switched to using a raptor cam wihout any other changes ( heads ? CR? ) . How are you finding the change. Did the motor make any more power with the raptor cam or was it just more " flexible" in terms of power delivery across a broader rpm range ?  And hence did you gain any improvements on your ET's from this change as I thought your ET in your signature was the same as when you ran with the webcam ?

Cheers

Shane.

So you must run easy 11's now ?

Udo

Shane:  Yes, 12.8 ET with Web 86C and 12.9 ET with Raptor 06908...same top speed at 104 MPH.  They're actually similar cams, except for lift:

Web 86C:  272 degrees (@ 0.050"), 0.390" lift, IO 28 degrees BTDC, IC 64 degrees ABDC, EO 64 degrees BBDC, EC 28 degrees ATDC
Raptor 06908: 274 degrees (0.050"), 0.425" lift, IO 29 degrees BTDC, IC 65 degrees ABDC, EO 65 degrees BBDC, EC 29 degrees ATDC

Udo:  Regarding why I'm still in the high 12's and not 11's, it could be several things:
-Beetle weighs 2,030 lb (923 kg) with driver on board,
-Steel EMPI Sprintstar wheels,
-Need some dyno tuning/jetting,
-Too much air pressure in the tires...trying not to break the transaxle,
-No burnout,
-Poor driver in the cockpit...shifting too slow, etc,
-Other??

Yes ... we have the same problem, Neil, in that the late model cars are just heavier!
I speced the 'ready to drive' weights for '69 and '63 T1s in the respective owners manuals: 1807 versus 1631 lbs.!
So, we have around 170 pound disadvantage from the start!
Wonder where it all is?
A few quick guesses: Ball joint front end, larger seats, longer torsion bars, control arm rear suspension, larger heater box/exhaust system ... oh yeah! And the larger taillights! LOL

Did you use the same valvetrain components with the Raptor cam? I'm going super lightweight with mine to take advantage of the easier ramps ... free up some HorsePower! ;)

TxT

Neal, at what elevation are you setting these ET's?
Did you specify that you wanted to do elevens in such a heavy car when you ordered the cam?

12.8 (Web 86C in 2011) and 12.9 (Raptor cam in 2012) ET's were at sea level.

12.9 (Web 86C in 2011) and 13.0 (Raptor cam in 2012) were at at 2,200 ft (670 m).

Mostly the Beetle runs consistent low 13's.  I have changed jets and vents a bit, but have not been back to the dyno for a couple years...so I certainly need to do that this winter.

Yes, the Raptor cam was a custom grind based on Beetle weight, 1.41:1 Scat rockers, IDA's, MS230 heads flycut to 50 cc chambers, 0.040" DH.  Actual lift is 0.599" (15.23 mm) at the valve.

So far, I've experimented with Engle FK8 (with 044 heads) and with MS230 heads the following cams: Web 86C, Web 226, Web 251 and Raptor 06908...all with the same Scat 1.41:1 rockers, 1.75" header, IDA's (enlarged float bowls).  I switched from stock fuel pump to electric fuel pump and that didn't change anything.

Update:  I thought I would update this "11-second thread", since there are also comments about 12-second racers as well.  I posted on one of the other threads, so my apologies for the duplication, but I know when I search for information, it's nice to have it all captured in one or two relevant threads.

So, I'm thinking that the Raptor cam was simply wanting higher rpms than I had given it, and is starting to work a bit better now.  Moved the rev limiter up to 7900 and was hitting it on the first and second shifts.  Also, increased the launch to 5500 rpm.

This produced my best race for ET, top-end speed and sixty-foot:

12.658-seconds
106.44 MPH
1.718-seconds 60'

Hoping to race a few more times in September and experiment with launch rpms and tire pressure.

Shane:  congrats on your 11's!!

its all done now nyway shane took the belt off  :D 11.96 well done mate you deserve it  8)

Cheers Danny  ;D but I'd still like to run deeper into the 11's and without taking the belt off !!   ;) that's what I mean by easy 11's

I got some ways to go yet buddy but hopefully......