The Cal-look Lounge

This threat is dedicated to all who are trying to accelerate as hard as allowed by the laws of physics.
Especially to those who are using more than a Kennedy pressure plate.

As the clutch is the link between the engine and the track, that makes you launch by slipping the right amount
to accelerate and not to smoke tire.

Everything is welcome, that works and that doesn't.

[attachment=1]

MeXX

Here is an example from my Mexxspeed Drag Ghia, that didn't work like expected:

The setup is:

lightweight aluminum flywheel with cromoly thrust face.
Black Magic disc
lightweight aluminum pressure plate with Kep stage 4 diaphragm
lightweight aluminum floater with cromoly thrust face.

[attachment=1]

The good thing was it had a very soft engagement that made the launching very easy.
This soft engagement leaded to too much slippage touring the burnout.
Although it could hold the torque easily it could not handle the heat.

Just working on a new setup

MeXX

 When I ran a stock flywheel ( wedgemated ) on my N/A cars I really did not have very many problems with either slippage or transmission breakage, my turbo car has been another thing all together. Since going to a turbo setup I have been plagued with clutch and tranny problems. I invested in multiple clutch combos and differant pressures to try to find the magic combo that would give me the performance and reliability I wanted. The clutch setups I have tried are both single and double discs with clutch management systems . Last year and a half I went through 7 ring and pinions plus cases and machine work ( timkin bearing mods, r/p machining for timkin, ect... ) so I spent a considerable amount of money trying things. Last fall when Ron Lummis came out with his REV6 setup I jumped on board and it was the best investment I made. My 60 ft times improved ( 1.35 - 1.40 with no burnout , I have not had to touch my tranny all season and it is still together. This is a video of my car at Darlington ( red car ) , notice NO burnout,watch first few feet and you will see 2nd gear change because it goes higher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJZrEFElU24

                   Are there better setups, maybe, but I am extremely happy.  I owe Ron Lummis a big thank you and hope my info can help someone else. Mike McCarthy

Looks like the car really launches;

and as your transmission is still OK it also
has the right amount of slippage.

Is it single or dual disc setup?

Here are onbord videos from my car, as you see it launches smooth but not fast:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2ODLX6WXuc&list=UUEyUOyOW6VdZAVzaiicVR_Q&index=83&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4Tv44bkIbw&list=UUEyUOyOW6VdZAVzaiicVR_Q&index=82&feature=plcp


MeXX

What track is this ?

Sorry but you can not run that light flywheel and aluminium clutch parts in your engine

Udo

The track is in Kunmadaras Hungary:
http://www.kunmadarasmotorsport.hu/web/en/
and it is definitely the best track I ever raced.

MeXX

I will switch to a billet cromoly shoe an a centrifugal enhanced pressure plate.

MeXX

Very nice engineering on that flywheel and Presure plate but I think the BM disk is to heavy for it.

Here some further pix

[attachment=1]
[attachment=2]

MeXX

Hey Mexx,
              Mine is a dual disc setup but both are available.  Your car looks plenty fast !!!! Someone has spent a tremendious amount of time on your clutch setup , definately light. Mine is rather heavy but the package has a small outer diameter and very strong. Mike McCarthy

Hey to everybody

I was asked why I run a floater on a single disc.

First I was running a Kennedy pressure plate but after a couple of runs I
had awful :P vibrations at high RPM and a slipping clutch. When I pulled my engine to look
what is wrong I saw that the rivets in the spring straps which connect
the pressure shoe to the cover were sheart, allowing the shoe to make a bad unbalance.

This was the reason why I made this clutch, which has a floater with 12 stands which guide
the pressure shoe and can hold the torque.

MeXX

The BM disks create alot of heat. You can modify the shoe to get the right thickness and use twin Tilton disks. They don't like to much slippage but if you get the pressure right it will hold the power and still be light.
I'm setting mine up like this to try. My flywheel. (http://)(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll186/shag55/CC28B6E5-61F8-42DC-80DC-622935A5B34D-4073-0000041A1630D314.jpg)
And disk(http://)(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll186/shag55/E8A8FF82-FC16-4691-8FB8-9A6DFAC6E775-4073-00000419E0784655.jpg)

I don't believe the centrifical weights work for drag racing as you are always at high RPM so the weight is always being used. Rally or street maybe.

Hi

Is this flywheel from megamashine  ???

[attachment=1]

Do you run 2 discs and what type  ???

MeXX

Hi

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJgPu5o_E7M&feature=related

How a clutch should work  ;D


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDbrvUtNJfU

how it should not work  :-[

MeXX

Mexx

you have some very pretty looking parts there, but why do you need more than a kennedy pressure plate? the best 60fts by any rear engined VW in the world are done on kennedy pressure plates with a 1.16 being the best I know of :o


cheers richie

Nice! Too bad we cant find a pressure plate and a flywheel that can take that kind of abuse.

Yes it's a Mega.
The discs are twin tiltons, the PP is a McCload and I had Jack machine the floater for the right thickness so that my package is stock height.
I would have used the McCload disks but didn't want to space my tranny and the tiltons are lighter.

Hi

Is the PP a Mc Leod  ??? ???
and do you know how much pressure it has ?
some Pix ?

MeXX

dear richie

U are right 1.16 60fts is what we are all looking for. ;D
To be honest everything lower than 1.30 would make me more than happy.
My best time of 9.176 ;D was with a 1.560 :'( 60fts.
The good thing is that it should be possible to lower my 60fts to bring me into the 8's.
The bad thing is that it was not possible with a Kennedy stage 4 and a black magic disk.
BTW I was afraid running a casted iron pressure plate in my race car.
If you watch my videos closely you can hear how long I have to be on the clutch.

And my aim is to build a clutch that can handle starts on nitrous :o.

[attachment=1]


MeXX

Wow that 60 ft is awfull, you will have a very quick car when you get it figured out :), I have best 1.22 so far,1.24 with a kennedy cover, and can run 1.25s on a poor track and high 1.20s on an un prepped track like bitburg, personally i wouldnt use tilton even if they payed me :o, but everyone has different ideas of what they can get to work :)



cheers richie

Dear richie

I'm about 100% with U

Tilton is a very high quality stuff. But it's definitely not built for drag racing.
They can handle the torque (2 or 3 discs) an the heat easily, but they can not slip
very much, because as they slip they heat up and the friction coefficient rises very much
and they will lock up.

The only professional way for drag racing is the so called Black Magic.
There is no magic inside; it's basically the same material like all the big dogs use:
like Boninfante, Crower, Hays, Mcleod, Molinari, Ram, and East West
It's a 8" Sintered Iron Clutch Disc built by Raybestos.

Available compounds are 5135 and 5191:

The 5191 is a softer compound to allow more clutch slippage.
The 5135 compound is a little harder and more aggressive.


MeXX

Are the readily available BM discs for VWs the 5191 or the 5135 compound?

Like dragvw2180, we are changing from a NA combo where we have used the McLeod light cone with a Kennedy 4 puk for quite a while with very good results, to a turbocharged combo. That light cone clutch will no longer be enough, so for the short term, I've elected to go with the "HD" cone McLeod. I wanted something better, but I'm already over budget to get the whole project done by the March Meet. (spent more on the fuel system than I figured.)

So, the McLeod is a compromise to cost as I already have the other components. I'm a little concerned about the pedal feel, but I will simply have to deal with it. I don't want to use the thin Tilton discs as I don't think they will withstand the rigors of clutch management.

Richie, I know you like the Kennedy dual, but I'll not buy another Kennedy as I (and others) had had the same problem MeXX mentioned about the shoe going off center and setting up a horrible vibration. Besides that, there is independent data out there that says the clamp load the Kennedy advertises is way off the mark.

Anyway, with HD cone in hand, I'd like to try different discs, which include a Clutchnet (USA made) 3 and 4 puck, and perhaps a black magic disc. All of theses will be used with hydraulic clutch management. Perhaps down the road, I can go with a better clutch. One of the ones I'm looking at is the 7.25" dual disc Tilton. This is not the thin disc unit every typically refers to as a "Tilton Clutch", but the complete self contained clutch. Easily adaptable to the "J&G" style flywheel.

I'll also look at the Rev6 from RLR. I disagree with my friend Shag on counterweighted clutches for drag racing as virtually every V8 racer there is uses them, and they are so far ahead of the VW world in clutch development that there is simply no comparison. Our biggest limitation is the bellhousing. The room available, as well as being able to make clutch adjustments for base pressure and counterweight changes without having to yank the motor out. A nice, small diameter "Long Style" pressure plate with that kind of adjustability is what I'd like!

Dear Mike

I'm with U

The more powerful your car gets & the longer you have to be on the clutch the more important it is that your clutch is built to slip and therefore to be able to handle the heat. Sintered iron is definitely the best material for slipping. When we carefully watch the Big Dogs
and they should know how to do, in most cases either centrifugal floater clutches or pressure plates which are centrifugal enhanced are used.
I know that the space is limited in our VW application, what made me to design a centrifugal enhanced  pressure plate with reversed counterweights. It took some time to finish the construction so that the counterweights have lower inertia when you are on the clutch which increases when you are off the clutch helping to lock up.
Yes there is a possibility to change the weights wo pulling the engine.
The drawings a just in the CNC shop. I hope they should finish the first prototype in about two weeks.

Stay tuned

MeXX  

Hi

There is a 8-inch Raybestos Sintered Iron Clutch Disc avaliable in 5191 or 5135 compound from:

Mc Leod

Sintered Iron Disc. LCF 5191 Compound $325  :'(
Sintered Iron Disc. HCF 5135 Compound $325  :'(

And much cheaper :D:

Proformance Pros
W3974 Co. Rd. 374
Carney MI, 49812

906-639-7767

randy@proformancepros.com

(Item no: PPR08.0X) for $173.25

but you may have to change the centers to VW spline.

MeXX

Hi Mike

as you know I had clutch problems for a couple of years with kennedy covers and black magic discs,the clamping force definately was different from cover to cover as you mention,even though they were stamped the same,the double disc cover seems to be a different material and quality,still not perfect but much better :)  Again it has taken me a while to get a set up that "I" am happy with that works with my car weights and gear ratios,it certainly isn't for everyone, I ran it on the old car for a while and have switched to it on the new car this year, "I" didn't enjoy the Mcloud double disc experience >:( that we tried for a year on the new car even though it gave good 60ft results I didn't like it, but others have good luck with it.It will be interesting to see how you get on with other brand discs and CM.

There are lots of little tricks to getting these things to work and it can be frustrating learning them all to get something that works,hopefully it wont take you to long with your new combo :)

cheers richie

Hi richie

Did you never have the problem that the rivets come loose ?

MeXX

No I didn't,any I personally never broke one either,I have seen a few that the shoe broke but personally I only had trouble with distortion of the shoe,nothing more

cheers richie

Funny enough, the thin disks ( I ordered semi-metallic and got thin disks which looked suspiciously like sintered iron and also 'squeecked' like them too) holded up pretty well, but the forged flywheel, floater and clutch hat shoe were all scored with blue marks and everything we all have seen too often.
I run the porsche G50 spline (= same as Mendeola) and not much available in other then 7,25" style plates.

Seriously considering going the other way and try 240mm original G50 diameter with a single plate again... (after I try out the thicker true semi-metallic Titon plates a friend has lying around new still)

Walter

Sorry guys about my counterweight thoughts. I just couldn't get my brain to understand the idea. I guess there must be something to it though.
As for the Kennedy. I've had a hard time with mine but finally seems to be all sorted out now. It sure is a simple set up but I had a lot of trouble with disingagement even when sending everything to Kennedy to have them check it. After the faced of .020 from the hat and I put a .032 shim it seems to be fine.  Another problem was there disks material kept chipping off at the edges and scratching everything up. This last time I ground a chamfer around each pad getting rid of the sharp edge.
Maybe you could use the two Kennedy disks with the McCloud plate and hat. You will néed to shim it out about .200 though and don't know if it will clear the bell housing.

Found a pic of my latest set-up which holded 465hp (I launch soft I must admit, but car is very heavy):
(http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w112/fusca03/Motoren/TiltonclutchPRs011.jpg)

Those were the std thin disks, right? Also you drove the streets with this set up?

Yes and yes. Car never rides on a trailer as you know, more trackday (circuit) then drag. Very quick shifting possible due to very light clutch rotating mass (thin = light), which the synchros like.
Thicker disks are better for drag racing though as they cope better with heat. Drag starts = clutch slip on full torque (launch) = mucho heat.
Nothing new ^^ , its just finding something that does it all which is the hardest. Amount of compromise also relates to the investment (think carbon clutches).

Yes, multi carbon clutches = $5k

Airspeed, that clutch pictured is the one I was seriously considering. If I wasn't already over-budget on my build, I'd just go with it. They are available as single, double and triple disc, with different type friction discs available too. The spec sheet seems it indicate that a dual disk version will fit comfortably in a VW bellhousing.

It's not counterweighted like the RLR Rev6 is though.

Once I get my turbo combo somewhat sorted, it'll be time to look at clutch options.

This is a very good thread with good discussion!

great topic. learned a  lot

Hi

This is final call to all the:

Top Racers ;D
Big Guns ;D
Big Dogs ;D
&
Big Turbos ::)
&
Bottle Babies :o

Let us know what U are running

What works ;D and what sucks :-[

MeXX

I have always been a fan of 3-puck discs.

When I ran a supercharged engine,
I went low 10s with a single 200mm 3-puck and real 2700lb diafragm.

The pressure plate was a home made floater style deal with steel materials,
and used a generic replacement diafragm.
Car was about 1830 with the single blower.

When I stepped up to two blowers,
I went dual 3-pucks with an extra floater, and reduced the diameter to 180mm.
This worked very well. Car was 1870lbs by then and ran 9's at 147mph(236km/h)

Now I am back playing normally aspirated,
I took out one floater and disc and it works great.

I get 40 good runs from the discs, and then it begins to lose sixty ET if I dont take some shim out.
Last time I went 50 passes, since I was to lazy to pull the engine.

Our dragracing sanctioning body does not allow "made from iron" pressure plates once you go 10.99 or quicker.
While I have made various floaters and flywheels over the years,
I am still using the very same diafragm and cover from nearly 20 years ago.

This is funny...
I have never liked three puck. Sorry Dangerous. I still like you.

My first ever experience was a Gene Berg setup with welded counterweighted 78 mm crank.
The flywheel was wedgemated.
A green 2700 Kennedy
....and the three puck.
The year was 1977.
First raced it in 1978
- Race one....problem with camshafts.
- Race two....slipping clutch and distorted flywheel.
Did we learn the hard way on how to separate the two...Wedgemate is tough.
- Race three...now with a super flat flywheel, pressure plate disassmbeled and ground flat, three puck slightly surfaced. All OK
- Race four...same thing. All slipping and distorted.
The coming years, whenever we tried the three puck after all new different recommnedations, no go. Back in went the fiber disc and we went quicker and quicker.
This has formed my life for loving fiber discs.

I had a six puck Porsche setup (with a 915 four speed gearbox) in my supercharged street beetle. It held well BUT it would just not slip.
One day with a friend in downtown Malmö Sweden, my friend warned me to be careful as a police car was parked and seemed to check out the stop discipline.
I got so nervous that my start rpm flew way too high and the left foot dropped.........well you can guess what happened.
I was told to be an idiot and stupid and maybe a bit Macho by my friend. Now I was lucky as the police did nothing.
Soon after, I replaced the six puck with an orginal Porsche fiber disc and we lived together all happily after!

That is OK Frallan, we all can have different experiences!
But I can add that I never liked thhose 3-arm style pressure plates,
and the 2700lb one I had only had 1600lbs!

I used to use this clutch on NA . Now we install turbo and change to Pauter flywheel with kennedy double discs with stage 4 PP



(http://s9.postimage.org/f7idqqinj/IMG_20121111_00936.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
picture hosting (http://postimage.org/)


Current stage

(http://s16.postimage.org/e5m4bxicl/IMG_20120924_00762.jpg) (http://postimage.org/)
free photo hosting (http://postimage.org/)

Not sure if this info is much use as I'm using a 915 gearbox and turbo type 4 though normal UK street treads. I switched to a 4 puck Helix cerametallic disc with standard 911 clutch cover and it works well for me and 250ft/lbs torque. I guess the limiting factor is the tyres on launch but it holds the power well so far.
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqmcHJOmDBjtR1rSZeB6RCCN78sjLU0bf471o52EIDGYWHPrH8)

Well, I have always used Kennedy PP and "Black Magic" single disc with good results. I ran 9.18@248km and 900kg with stage 1 and 9.04@255km and 950kg with stage 2.
The only problem I had was that the disc cracks after one season. I did not have any clutch management.

/Håkan

Also flywheel material is super important,some are too hard,thats were a single floater set up gains, you can make the floater from a softer material and just replace it regularly, with a double disc I have found the floater needs to be as thick as possible to stop distortion, most of what is offered off the shelf are to thin really and need regular re surfacing or replacing if you slip them at all

cheers richie

I have this situation now, but always thought floaters to be a consumable item anyway. The discs, flywheel, and top plate all good but floater needs replacing but I consider it a good trade after a couple of seasons with clutch problems (disc pads coming off, pressurre plate breaking into 2 pieces, broken pressure plate springs breaking etc etc). I now run a RLR twin disc. 

Hi Berni

In a twin disc application the floater is the most stressed part and has to handle an enormous amount of heat, so material and thickness is very important. The latest evolution are the sintered floater which can handle the heat and have the right friction coefficient.

Sintered floater
[attachment=3]


Bronce floater
[attachment=1]


Slotted floater
[attachment=2]

I like this slotted floaters which really help to avoid distortion


MeXX

Nice! Slotted is a good idea. Also one could possibly be made like a rotor with grooves.

First thing I did was to buy a data logger so I could see what really happens, I have learned a lot from it too.In the previous pan/torsion bar car I used single disc J&G and black magic with no clutch management.The biggest problem was the floater getting distorted, the result was change in the clutch slip.If we where lucky we got like two runs before the slip started to change, best 60-fot with that car was 1.32.Pulling the engine like 2-3 times in a weekend changing floater and adjusting break away is'nt that fun..

Now I use double disc Kennedy and hydraulic clutch management,has been a good experience so far.Not that expensive and pretty much maintenance free.We can also see that the slip is a lot more consistent now.I got some grease on the discs from the flywheel needle bearing at the first test and tune session this year (my fault.. ::)) , after that not touched it the rest of the season.Launch with 2 bars+ of boost, car weight race ready with driver is 852kg.Best 60-fot with new car is 1.206

Here you have a video shot from the side at SCC this year,our first run at the event.Driver sleeping when shifting to second  ::),but you can see the clutch doing the job at the launch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv6kogU7uks

Kennedy 2400lb (or was it 2700? Can't remember) pressure plate, Scat four-puck solid feramic disc. Same clutch three seasons, no breakages. Prior to that, used a three-puck. Never did get my head round all this modern clutch technology... but then I gues my car was so slow and underpowered it didn't need it!  ;D

Hi

Took allot longer than i thought but the prototype of my new clutch is ready now.

The problem:
[attachment=1]
The old clutch
[attachment=2]
The solution the new centrifugal enhanced pressure plate
[attachment=3]
There are 12 counterweights to enhance pressure when RPM goes up.
[attachment=4]

MeXX

Wow that is a lot of work there Mexxi!
Should have pickup now!

Dear Dave

To be honest if the clutch works like expected
1.35 60 feet should be possible which would bring me in the 8 th easily

MeXX

Very nice! 
No disc positioned in between the pressure plate and the flywheel in that picture, right?

Right


MeXX

Very nice Mexx! What disks with that one?

Dear Shag

The disc I will run will definitely be a Black Magic 5135 compound which is the harder and more aggressive.
The floater plates will be sintered bronce which are in design at the moment.

MeXX

Man thats pure art!

Dear Johan

THX for the kind words
Would be great to know more about your clutch setup;
maybe some pix  ;D ;D

MeXX

Hi

Here is a pix from the different counterweights I will use:
[attachment=1]

They are lasered from hardened steel and weight 4,2 g and 7,1 g (counterweight only)
Base setup will be:

Base pressure 4000N with 12 light counterweights

328Nm @ 4000 RPM
366Nm @ 5000 RPM
412Nm @ 6000 RPM
466Nm @ 7000 RPM
529Nm @ 8000 RPM
564Nm @ 8500 RPM


Base pressure 4000N with 12 heavy counterweights

370Nm @ 4000 RPM
430Nm @ 5000 RPM
505Nm @ 6000 RPM
593Nm @ 7000 RPM
695Nm @ 8000 RPM
750Nm @ 8500 RPM

As there are 12 ones any combination of light and heavy counterweights like  12, 2+10, 3+9, 4+8, 6+6, 8+4, 9+3, 10+2, 12;
will be possible to adjust the clutch

MeXX

I've used them on bikes, but for a car that is a very elegant solution! Well done Mexx!
How much clearance will you expect to have between the opposite end of the counterweight (the one not on the disc) and the outer edge of the flywheel recess?
Will you still have enough clutch slip on launch, or will you have to lower the launch revs and initial clutch plate preload to allow it to "give" a bit out the hole?

I was going to ask about different weights like other floater clutch solutions with screws, nuts, washers.
This definately is a solution too.
You already figured out your combinations.  Nice!

Hi

After hours of testing we finally found a material that is superior for the wearplates which is called Hardox 500
Just finished the slotted floaters and the clutch is ready for assembly.

[attachment=1]
lightweight aluminum flywheel



[attachment=2]
slotted Hardox 500 wearplate installed



[attachment=3]
Raypesto 5135 clutch disc



[attachment=4]
slotted Hardox 500 floater installed

MeXX

Super nice!

..and it's getting even nicer:

from parts to a centrifugal enhanced floater clutch

[attachment=1]
clutch parts



[attachment=2]
clutch fully assembled



[attachment=3]
side view


MeXX

That is pure art!!!  :o

Nice work Mexx!

Some thoughts on clutches in general...
You all know how a well functioning clutch can make a car a joy to drive, and a clunky, hard to use clutch makes a car a pain to drive? Personally, I think operating a clutch should be a thoughtless thing to do. In other words, something that one does not think about.

After driving our new turbo combo for a half dozen runs now, and although the thing works, the "J&G" style McLeod 8" floater clutch with the  "heavy" hat, is anything but a joy. I think about it often. I think, "Damn, I HATE this clutch"

Yeah it works. The car goes, I can shift it.....most of the time. (I did miss a shift to high gear at the last outing)

I hope to change to something else soon. If there is any one word I can use to describe it's manners, it "hateful."

It's at the top of my list of stuff that needs to be changed.

nice work of art there mexx ;D keep em coming

Those centrifugal things are brilliant! How much does those centrifugal weights add to pressure in different rpm's? This design eeks out that it's not made out purely with hand tools, so maybe the centrifugal parts have alsobeen simulated?

If the centrifugally generated pressure add is very noticeable, it should be possible to do this kind of "hybrid clutches" (supposedly with more normal flywheel/disc/pressure plate setup) for street use also, so that you'll be able to use easy clutch that still can withstand way more torque with rpm's.

...and other thing that came to mind - it's easier to keep the foot firmly down on the clutch when you're starting to rev up at the tree, even it the pressure to your foot increases.

Hi

Yes CAD was involved and I did some calculating on the centrifugal forces on the counterweights that will put the pressure on the diaphragm, just check out <reply #58> to see how much. With 12 light counterweigths it's the base pressure is about doubled at 7500 RPM.
I hope it works like it looks.... will see on Saturday is the first track test.


So long

MeXX

Hi to all

Yesterday I did my first race with the new clutch.
As there was absolutely no experience with the new parts it was more like a test & tune than a race.
The weather was f***ing cold ( -1°C in the morning and 3°C max at noon) the track was still prepped from the last year events which turned out to be very slippy.

1st run was with very moderate base pressure and counterweights and without nitrous.
Doing the burnout I recognized the clutch gripped very harsh making a good but short burnout.  ;D
Car was staged at the line & revlimiter at 5500 RPM
Car launch fairly good no wheel spin at all RPM going down to 5200 clutch was slipping RPM went up and the clutch gripped very  good:

60 feet 1.492
1/8      6.442 @178,82km/h
1/4     10.042@215,59km/h

For this traction a fairly good and how it turned out the best run but damn 0.043s away from the 9s without nitrous.
As traction was really bad we decided to do all further runs wo nitrous.


2nd run was with the same setup but I decided to start a little bit more aggressive.
Doing again a good burnout the clutch gripped again very harsh.  ;D
Car was staged at the line & revlimiter at 5500 RPM and I tried to launch a little bit harder.
Car launch fairly good but as the RPM was going up the clutch gripped and I had serious wheel spin destroying this run.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eUr5BBp1a4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eUr5BBp1a4)


60 feet 1.821
1/8      6.607 @181,31km/h
1/4     10.190@216,83km/h

A more and more leaking flywheel seal stop further testing after the 3rd run.

MeXX

Nice report, thanks.
For some strange reason, the first run often turns out to be the best one... ???

Hi Mexx, is this engine normally aspirated plus nitrous?
Any engine pictures?
That is an awesome time  and speed NA on that poor traction!

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,20436.0.html

Dear Dave

Yep this is an normally aspirated engine and this run was wo nitrous (because of the poor traction)
The big aims for the 2013 season is to run 9.XX wo nitrous
and 8.XX on the bottle.
So let's keep the fingers crossed and hope for better conditions next time

So long

MeXX

Thanks for the information MeXX and Taylor.
That is some very impressive numbers, what does it weigh with the driver aboard?

Verry nice build Mexx.

But what are the disadvances of using an automatic or lenco style gearbox ?.
Wouldn that be better ?
They can be build to hold the torque and reduce the shockloads with no shift overlay
And as far i know you can stay on the throttle with no turbo lag .
In the future i would like to build an cvt tranny for my bug pullbelt style!
Soon i wil have my core in my shop .
Its just an crazy idea of my
I like to do wierd stuff.
I do regular rebuilds on cvt s ,and every time i testdrive them  i am amazed ho fast a car with a cvt accelerate compare to manual or autobox.

Jus an crazy idea

keep up the good work and keep the roof of your car towards the sky..

gr Henri.

Dear Henri

I do like Lencos I do not like automatic transmissions.

I will never use automatic transmissions as they kill power and will always slip a little bit and they will require no driving skills just release the trans break and count the seconds til U cross the finish line.
But more than once I was thinking how to modify a Lenco to work in our application ???  and I tell U the day will come. ;D


MeXX

.

Hi Mexx how do you shift your car .Vertigate or h pattern?
I know autoboxes have converterslip but you wil get torque multiplication  back for it.
And if you will find a corvair powerglide you can swap the tc for an  normal clutch and shift it like an lenco
only two gears then.


gr Henri

Hi guys some pretty full on stuff going on here, makes my set up look like old hat! Just want to pose a couple of questions regarding a more basic system.
Looking at a basic clucth management system used by a few members on here. I've got all the parts for the system as below.
(http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k300/dragvw2180/mikenov2010003.jpg)

My question is that once installed, the system is activated via a launch control/2 step button with the clutch peddle all the way down. When i drop the clutch i also release the launch control/2 step button. Surely this deactivate the solenoid and the fluid will take the path of least resistance rather than through the needle valve?

Would be interesting to hear how it works for others before installing it and finding more problems.

Rich, I have a similar system on the blue car. You need to implement a switch for low gear. Mine is built to activate off the shift coupler. It uses a lever switch. In first gear, it pushes on the lever switch. This way the solenoid is closed in low gear only, forcing fluid through the flow control. Once you pull it out of low gear, it goes inactive and operates normally.

I also installed a small light in the dash to indicate when it's powered.

While it is a "band-aid" to make up for a too-stiff clutch, it definitely works. Although it will slow the cars reaction time and 60 foot to a degree, depending on how much flow resistance there is. That was the primary reason I installed it in the first place. I wanted to slow the car's reaction to be able to dial in a .5 tree. It worked....sort of. But it was a bit inconsistent depending on the amount of heat in the clutch. So for the most part, my big plan backfired more often than it worked. Any clutch is like that. A counter-weighted clutch will also act differently with varying degrees of heat.

I am going to run it off my launch control which only activates err on launch!  :)

I guess i'm just concerned that when releasing the launch control button the solenoid will open negating the system actually functioning as it should.

Maybe running it off the launch control isn't the best thing and I should try and hook it up to the gears as suggested?

The purpose is to try and stop it spinning up the tyres on launch which is a big issue at the moment especially for bracket racing and consistancy.

Without know how your launch control is configured, I couldn't suggest anything. For the flow control to work, the solenoid needs to be active for at least a fraction of a second after you drop the clutch.

Cheers I'll go for a switch activated on 1st gear that will solve the issue. We'll see how well it pans out, just hoping for a small amount of slip to tame the wheel spin on launch.

Hi to all

As it turned out although the hardox has been superior wear resistant it tended to wrap if it has to take to much heat.
So looking at the slotted wear plates they had absolutely no wear or scratches you can feel.
As the new centrifugal enhanced pressure plate gave me the possibility to have the wanted clutch slippage the wear plates couldn't handle the heat and wrapped making it impossible to engage the clutch.

[attachment=1]

[attachment=2]

[attachment=3]

[attachment=4]

MeXX

Mexx, there seems to be a post about you on Bangshift! http://bangshift.com/blog/insane-wreckage-video-watch-a-bad-ass-karmann-ghia-wreck-hard-on-a-makeshift-german-drag-strip.html

They are wondering if you were hurt during the crash and one poster is actually claiming your car is 4WD with a turbo! I posted up a link to your engine build thread. :)

Hi to all

As there is an upcoming event this weekend and my bronze floaters are still in production. I had to make a new clutch flywheel combo for this race.
Flywheel and pressure plate are made of massive Crmo without wearplates. Altough it is very heavy it should take the heat easily:

[attachment=1]
[attachment=2]
[attachment=3]

MeXX

Haha... Nice Mexx!! This is development!

Yap

Development takes time and money...
and there are races to be participated...
But innovation is comin' up...

MeXX

Development takes time and money...
and there are races to be participated...
But innovation is comin' up...

MeXX
[/quote]
Now a days I use exactly that statement to explain what is heppneing in our brains when we are Racers. It is very close, or maybe same result of good feeling ((Dopamin?) as with sex, drugs, promotions etc.
When I was racing full seasons, there was no limit, deadlines came and I was on the track. 
What I had to do, to get there, was incredible, in hindsight.  I learned a lot.

Love your stuff, development and you spirit!

Who knows Mexx. You may find it'll be quicker at the 60 with a slightly heavier rotating mass.

Hi

This is my new clutch setup for the Race:
more base pressure and 8 short & 4 long counterweights

[attachment=1]
Engine ready to race


[attachment=2]
Clutch closeup


[attachment=3]
Short and long counterweights close up


[attachment=4]
Engine in the car

MeXX

Love it all!  Good luck!
Also thanks for sharing with such detail.

Hi Mexx,

Why such tall manifolds and tall stacks?
I thought hi-rpm motors were more efficient with short everything?

I'm guessing at total intake length being about 16" (400mm), which would focus tuning around 7500-9000rpm.

But then again you have the nitrous that does its job best at lower rpms, increasing the cylinder pressure drastically and giving one hell of a kick in the butt.

50 cm is 4100 rpm and 25 cm is 8200 rpm, from what I can remember.

Hi

If you want to calculate the manifold length seriously you have to know the cam timing.
In my example it is for FK 47
length : 530mm
Power loss at 5166 RPM and 8611 RPM
Power gain at 6458 RPM

So the usefull power range is 5500-7800 RPM

But I think we should do a separate threat on this.

MeXX

Hi Mexx

your ability to get things done,and so quickly is really impressive,some real inovative thoughts going on here :) hope version 2 works ok,with my own tests the heat caused by excessive slipping of the clutch distorts parts real quick,I found it needs to be real thick material to survive,but then I am using much more basic materials than you,hope you have success at the next race 8)

cheers Richie

Dear Richi

THX for the kind words.

BTW here is my success:
We were out for racing in Kiskunlachaza (HU) this weekend.
The track was prepped very well but a little bit slippy at the beginning that gave us the time to make clutch and wheelibar adjustments on the naturally aspirated engine,
but how it turned out traction was perfect later in the afternoon which gave me the chance to run still no bottle in the car, at 16:16

9.968 @ 220.64 km/h  ;D

[attachment=1]

Later on my long time friend and racer buddy Fredy did a run with my car:

9.767 @223.34 km/h  ::)

[attachment=2]

WoW  :o  :o :o

MeXX

Just for demonstration:

 my poor driving skills

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWbNojWgFyo&list=PL9qfqvlBjJyB9uM_d748Ha1vUBl94bb1R&index=1

Fredy's second run with my car and a clutch how it should work:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcCFV3wy8gA

MeXX

That is why i never let anyone drive my car :o


On Fredy's pass it looks like he launches,then puts the clutch back in again,it kind of hops forward,then settles down and goes,your launch looks much smoother? or is that how the clutch is set up?

It would be nice to see a video of it from behind from the burnout onwards to see how the suspension & wheelie bars etc are working

9.7 without the bottle is very good time though,maybe you need to tune the car and have Fredy drive ;) ;D

cheers Richie

Impressive stuff!!!!! Is this the first naturally aspirated 9 in Europe (aircooled flat 4, two doors etc)? CONGRATULATIONS!!!!
Jyrki


[/quote]

Dear Richi

THX for the kind words.

BTW here is my success:
We were out for racing in Kiskunlachaza (HU) this weekend.
The track was prepped very well but a little bit slippy at the beginning that gave us the time to make clutch and wheelibar adjustments on the naturally aspirated engine,
but how it turned out reaction was perfect later in the afternoon which gave me the chance to run still no bottle in the car, at 16:16

9.968 @ 220.64 km/h  ;D


Later on my long time friend and racer buddy Fredy did a run with my car:

9.767 @223.34 km/h  ::)


WoW  :o  :o :o

MeXX


[/quote]

Congratulations Mexx!!

Next inovation? Dual mass flywheel... Spinn up both disks before the start and release the second disk when the start is done. Have the cake and eat it too... ;-)

Well done Mexx!
nearly 139mph!
Do you know what it weighs?

Hi Dave

Yes I Do

MeXX

Awesome well done :)

 :D
 :-X

Just trying to make some apples with apples comparisons,
but that is OK, I know you can't share everything.
I am glad that you DO share so much, thanks for your posts!

awesome work!! nice run

Very nice Mexx! Keep it up.

Hi

Here are some further reports from my clutch testing:

After about 20 runs I have to say that it works like expected, it hooks up softly and can hold the power easily,
the only down side I had to accept is that if you put in a too soft spring and too heavy counterweigths (which would be perfect for soft launch and high horsepower) you are not able to open the clutch enough at high RPM. This is definitely killing the sycro hubs and gearboxes.

This happend at last race, were I had a fresh gearbox and at the 4. run (semi finale):

The nitrous set up was at 185HP 30% start 2,5s to 100%;
I had a pretty good launch and there was enough traction for this nitrous level.
  60 ft        1.455s was OK
  1/8          5.799s @ 201,73km/h (personal best)

but as mentioned before the clutch didn't open enough an so I broke the 4. gear syncro hub.
ending up with a sill amazing.

  1/4         9.584s @ 177.86km/h

[attachment=1]

As we couldn't fix up the broken sycro hub I had to to the final run without a 4.gear:

[attachment=2]

Without the forth gear I had to stay in the third gear and in the rev limiter from half to finish line.
But I was still able to win.

MeXX

Nice ET for a wounded car :o 8)  and congrats on the win  :)

Any idea why the 660 ET and mph were much slower on the second ticket with a better 60ft?

cheers Richie

Dear Richie

As I didn't want to kill the gearbox completely, I shifted much earlier at 7000 to 7200 instead of 7800 to 8000, and engaged the nitrous is the 2nd gear instead of the 1st.

MeXX

Nice Mexx, so next Tim you will try a med spring and lighter CWs?

What sort of gearbox do you use MeXX?
Perhaps an 'ignition cut' will get you better shift quality with those heavy clutch discs?

Right Shag

I'm goin' back to 12 light CWs and stage two base pressure.
Although because of the stage two spring it will not launch so smooth but it should handle the trq easily.

MeXX

Dear Dave

I'm runnin' a modified Porsche 901 gearbox:
4 gear vertical gate
aluminum spool
swing axle with 1350 spicers.

I'm runnin' Mega squirt MS II with ignition cut.

Yes my next setup will have lighter clutch discs.

So long

MeXX

Hi

I'm very proud that one of the world leading companies in clutch friction technology is supporting me (and my insanity ;D)
www.miba.com (http://www.miba.com)

Big big THX

Here is the next level of my clutch development:

[attachment=1]
Delivered parts from Miba


[attachment=2]
small box: clutch discs 5135 compound                                          big box: bronze floaters


[attachment=3]
aluminium flywheel


[attachment=4]
bronze floater installed

MeXX

The next step in development:

A used Raypesto 5135 (aka Black Magic) was cut into pieces to find the best friction partner for this material.
You can see the cutted disc on the top of the small box.

As the right compound was found the floater plates, which were made from a special 2mm thick stainless steel that won't wrap under excessive heat, were sintered with a 1,5mm thick layer.

As now both floaters and the clutch disc will wear, it was possible to make the clutch disc slightly thinner (7mm) to help quicker shifts and make it easier for the sycro hubs.

The idea was to get better heat dissipation from the clutch disc and thus a more constant and easier to maintain clutch setup.

[attachment=1]
Disc installed

[attachment=2]
2nd floater installed

[attachment=3]
pressure plate installed

[attachment=4]
bronze floater Back Magic bronze floater sandwich

Just have to assemble

Friday T&T in Bechyne (CZ)
Saturday Championship race in Trencine (SK)

So keep on clutchin'

MeXX

Bring on the first N2O 8's!!!
 ;)

Yea, Roger Crawford is right ther knocking with his 9.06!

Hey Mexx, why no slots, grooves or vent holes on the floaters to help with heat?

Dear shag

As you know space is limited inside the clutch we had to decide very carefully how thick or better how thin every layer has to be.

So we ended up with:

            the flywheel side:      Stainless steel carrier plate (2mm) sintered friction layer (1.5mm)
                    Black Magic:      5135 friction layer (2mm) steel carrier (2.4mm) 5135 friction layer (2mm)
    the pressure plate side:      Stainless steel carrier plate (2mm) sintered friction layer (1.5mm)

The aim is to get a clutch that is able to be abused for at least 15 to 20 full power starts with only minor adjustments and without pullin' the mill.

MeXX

Hi to everyone

Some further info of my clutch testing:

T&T Bechyne

New clutch engaging smooth but hooks up quickly;
as of the reduced disk weight it is easier and smoother to shift and less stress on the syncro hubs (to be hoped)

First run the track was dry but not Pop corn dry (like big daddy Jerry Lackey called it).

Second run traction was OK but only 1/8th mile.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKzVAVo_ZBs

Third run same as 2nd run

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VPjBMeWncwU


Now I will pull the mill check out the clutch and next tests are on 15th 16th June on Meidl Airport(HU)

Soon more

 MeXX

It seems like you are not leaving hard on the 2step. What rpm are you launching at?

I was wondering the same thing.  Also looks like an abreviated burn out with not much heat in the tires.  With all your horsepower I would think you would be looking for 60' in the 1.20's.  I know you are sorting things out but what is your best 60' thus far?  Thanks for all your sharing of information.  You've got a great car turning impressive times so far.  Good luck!

I read that Mexx did a 9,3 this weekend!

Congratulations!!

Basti

Hi,

after talking a lot with mexx last Weekend i just had to sign up here and take a look at this thread.

My clutch setup, what i thought would be be great, is not that good said Mexx.

At first, i am talking about my EJ25 powered notchbak with G64 Trans.

To get rid of slipping clutches i chose a 2-Disc Sinter Clutch from AP

[attachment=1]

I made a flywheel of solid C45 heat treatened "german tank" (no joke) steel.

[attachment=3]

But i just couldnt handle the beast, so i added some hydraulics and electronics.

[attachment=2]

Now, these gizmos do what my left foot (and my brain) can not, and 60ft are dropping.

Looking forward to the next races, maybe i will improve my 60ft to <1,6s  and the ET to sub 11sec.

Hi to everyone

After the last 3 races(Bechyne CZ, Trencine SK, and Alkersleben D)  were rained out, I was only able to make 4 runs.
I took the time to pull my engine look at the clutch and make some further runs at Meidl Airport (HU).

[attachment=1]

[attachment=2]

[attachment=3]

The clutch surface was very smooth and shiny and there was really no measurable wear either on the clutch disc nor on the wear plates.

BTW It takes about 3 hours to pull the engine look at the clutch and assemble everything again.

MeXX

THX Basti

I found a video from an unknown guy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lp5nfUsS-bY&list=PL9qfqvlBjJyBXW0eCYjvLb2_MFY4dapyq

MeXX

As promised we were racing at Meidl Airport (HU)

As it is an unprepped airport we had to make some setup changes to launch a little bit softer.
The plan was to run less nitrous launch softer but still try to cut down 60 ft times.

First run was 9.105  (sorry got no time slip).

Second run with less nitrous better 60 ft less top speed and same ET

[attachment=1]


Soon more...


MeXX

Nice ET :o 8)  and to do 2 passes the same ET is amazing, getting close to the magic 8s  ;D  when will you get a chance to run on a prepped track? The clutch wear looks really nice and even as well, it looks to be working better :)

cheers Richie

THX dear Richie

U R right, I'm really happy with the clutch, how smooth it launches but hooks up soon and is really easy on the tranny parts.
This weekend I'm on a car show
but next weekend I'm on a well prepped track at Kunmadaras

So let's see

MeXX

The clutchsystem is a copy of what Magnus is selling:

http://magnusmotorsports.com/products/transmissions/launch-control-device/#.UcLQdPn0GfU

But with a second solenoid, that keeps the fluid from returning.

So staged i step on clutch and break, push the button on the steering wheel, full throttle for launch software,
and when the time has come (after poor RTs, most of the time) finger off the button to launch.
After a tenth of a second (when the clutch begins to bite) the gizmos release the linelock for the front brakes.
I think its fine to get the whole drivetrain pre-tensioned.

So i managed the last 2 races to keep the 60fts in between 4/100 of a second. (4 runs each)

This is more consistent than i ever could do with my left foot.

At better tracks (BIT) i am sure the 60ft will be less than 1.6 so the 10s ETs will be there.

Maybe.

Hi

Just got a nice video from my 9.105 run

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4YeL8Fal0E

MeXX

2 nd run same time

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F73BZWwu3MM

MeXX

Car is running very sweet Mexx! 151mph is pretty cool.
Bit of clutch slip on the 2nd run, off the line?

Very nice runs!

No Updates here????????

Hockenheim this Weekend????

Now i am satisfied with my clutch setup.

Last Weekend at Hockenheim i managed to do a 1,51s 60ft with my heavy car.

Almost 1200kg at the starting line and only 400hp.  ;D

After a few changes at tyre pressure, launch rpm (and a stiffer rear suspension of course)
the 60ft dropped from 1,64  to 1,51s.

But it was too hot, so the ecu retarded spark advance too much,

again no 10  ??? ??? ???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPz4beveEKg

Not bad! How heavy is it? My street car is 2150# and best so far of 1.55 60'
I'm building a notch as well and it will be all steel and complete. So heavy as well.
Also what clutch?

Mexx are you coming to SCC?? We look forward to seeing your car at a decent track!!

Hi Uwe

Sorry, but because of a broken crank I was forced to stop testing a wait for a new one.
As I got the crank in the very last minute it was only possible with big help of my crew and one night of engine building and the following day and night of driving to participate the SCC at Gardermoen.

Now here is the last evolution of my clutch:



[attachment=1]
To prevent wrapping of the wear plates they were bolted with 24 small screws



[attachment=2]
Used clutch disc vs new one



[attachment=3]
new clutch disc



[attachment=4]
used clutch disc with about 40 launches but only few on nitrous.
Notice how smooth and shiny and flat the surface of the disc is.

The only thing I had to realise is that twelve small counterweights is still a little to much weight,
as on perfect prepped tracks like Kunmadaras where there is really no wheel spin at the launch, the RPM drops from
7000 to 4600-4800. So for next time I will try a little less counterweights to allow more clutch slip and therefor a higher launch RPM.

MeXX
 

Love this thread!
The key to Drag Racing that so many loses focus on (plus making HP and minimizing weight) is undesrtanding and developing your clutch and driving technique.
Thanks Mexx and all contributions.

That's a bit of a drop. Why leave so low in RPM. I've seem most guys seem to leave around 8500 in there pro stockers and SS. Ever Roger with the nitrous leaves high.

I think Mexx is trying not to break his drivetrain  ::) ::) ::)

This stupid 911 tranny is the only thing thats keeping him away from the 8s.

Launching harder he could gain the missing  /10s on the 60ft

But this gearbox wont survive it.

Next try on DDD Bitburg????????

Sevas Uwe

I'm trying hard but did break one till now. It's the fourth season and the first gearbox the only parts I broken were syncro hubs and dogtooth due clutch problems (development). As if the clutch discs and or wear plates are wrapped the clutch doesn't open completely the syncro hubs and togtooth have to take an enormous amount of energy and a very hard impact they often can't handle and finally break and saving the rest of the gearbox.

So let's see.
I'm really happy with my clutch now just checkin out how many launches it will handle without maintenance.
But still trying to win races  ;D
and tryin hard to set records  ;D ;D

next race is Kiskunlachaza (HU)(pretty well prepped track)
and then Meidl Airport (HU) (just an ordinary Airport, but was already able to run 9.105 twice there)
and then maybe DDD

So Long

MeXX

But why are the 60ft times so high?

As your car is sooo lightweight, even on a superb track you should get around 1.3..............

Even my really heavy notch achieved 1.5

What about DDD???

The 60s will come down to 1.3 I'm sure once you get a handle on the launch with the 2step and right RPM as well as pre loading with the stage brake. Practice!
Good luck on the future 8s!

Yesterday i pulled engine and tranny out.
This is what the clutch looks like

[attachment=1]

Got funny colours but almost no wear (0,1mm each disc)

i dont think this is really bad for  about 60 runs and some street driving.

[attachment=2]

Lets see what another 100 horses will do with the clutch at DDD

Sevas Uwe

Looks like your clutch and clutch management works pretty fine.
What about the floaters do they have wear and what about wrapping?
Did you measure how flat they stay?

keep on clutchin'

MeXX

the floater, pressure plate and flywheel have worn less then a tenth.

And still are pretty straight.

After i got used to it, the clutch management is working fine. ;D ;D ;D

So i will put it all together again when the engine is ready (you remind the Cosworth parts?)
and then off to DDD11 to run a few 10s passes.

Hi

Lookin' forward hearing your new engine rumble..... ;D

MeXX

After a years abuse the floater finally gave up :o this might explain why I was having difficulty adjusting the clutch slip, it would either bog or slip to much, the discs are still ok and the cover will get a tiny amount removed from resurfacing, flywheel is good so I just got to put a new floater in there, no exotic parts here though ;)

cheers Richie

What disks are those Richie?

Kennedy's

cheers Richie

Thats indeed not very exotic  ;D

Amazing you broke off a tab from the floater plate. The other tabs look not too happy either  8)
Good thing you caught it on time.

Looks like a am happy to have 12 tabs  ;D ;D

MeXX

At DDD the launch was working fine.

In this video you can see how fine the system works off the line:

www.youtube.com/embed/QMTsy5joZyo

Every 60ft below 1.6 (faster than Mexx running N/A)

Not too bad for 2600lbs at the tree  :P

And btw: Car was still running on sunday  ;D

Thought I'd post up my findings after recently pulling the engine from my bug. My setup is very basic. A custom flywheel to mate the type 4 to a Porsche 915 gearbox thus utilising the 911 clutch. I am running a Helix sprung cerametallic 4 puck clutch an a standard 911 cover plate. This has been in the car since about 2008. The car puts out about 270ft/lbs torque at the wheels and I've not had trouble with the clutch slipping apart from trying to launch in 2nd and when it got oil contaminated.

Anyway just want to post some pics up. My fear now is there may be a hairline crack in the mounting flange in the flywheel which will mean a new one so looking at options and opinions.

(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/meza2011/102_1986_zps3967d145.jpg)
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/meza2011/102_1988_zps3281f942.jpg)

The friction plate had obviously got a bit hot and is now down to the rivets as well as the faces starting to break up!
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/meza2011/102_1981_zps020a1e71.jpg)
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/meza2011/102_1985_zpsd848581c.jpg)
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/meza2011/102_1984_zpsd0dccfab.jpg)

Worst bit is the flywheel this shows heat distortion, crazing and some scoring. I've also noticed what appears to be a hair line crack round the mounting flange!
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/meza2011/102_1976_zps869e3bbb.jpg)
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/meza2011/102_1979_zpsa65d059d.jpg)
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/meza2011/102_1980_zpsb91de3f9.jpg)

(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/TIV911back.jpg~original) (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/Frallan2/media/TIV911back.jpg.html)

(http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s207/Frallan2/TIV911front.jpg~original) (http://s153.photobucket.com/user/Frallan2/media/TIV911front.jpg.html)

Built out of Swedish steel 2541-3 which is very similar to 300M.
Let me know if you are interested. I will most likley not use it.

Thanks Frallan. I'm waiting for the results of the crack test. Let me know what you would want for it.

I spoke to Helix about the clutch plate and they can re-pad this for a reasonable price so this is good news.  :)

Hi

This cracks are typical for excessive heat that can't be handled by the casted material.

MeXX

Thanks, I've shown it to a few people now any they weren't bothered and have seen worse, so that's reassuring. The bit I'm concerned with is a hair line crack round the mounting flange. Don't want that shearing off!

Hi

I would say pretty the same. I have see much worse cracks on my one pressure pates. If you can grind it flat without removing excessive material you can still use it on street. If you do a lot high horsepower launches where the clutch has to take an enormous amount of heat
and you should step up to a all steel solution, anyway.

BTW Launching in 2nd gear is much more heat for the clutch.

So keep on clutching

MeXX

I can't see the crack around the mounting flange you refer to Richard, but I do see you're using stock type 4 flywheel bolts?
Maybe the flywheel moved a little during launch and that might have caused the crack there?
Upgraded, shanked, reamed-to-fit 12.9 bolts, torqued a little more then stock will go a (very) long way preventing this, even on a cast flywheel, is my personal experience at least.

Ben Crisp at TTV will build very nice flywheels.
He did one for me few years ago and it was more or less custombuilt.

If anyone else wish to go this route, maybe you can get a better price?

info@ttvracing.com

Managed to pickup the flywheel last week and unfortunately it was confirmed that there was a hairline crack round the mounting flange. Glad I spotted that now and not once the clutch had exited the gearbox! So I have started hunting around for a new one and have a few leads. However I am wondering whether it is time to upgrade to a twin disc to try and dissipate some of the heat build up I am seeing. Any thoughts on this as the last one has been good so far with no clutch management but moving on I'm looking at adding this and think with some more clutch slip in the launch it may be bit much for the current setup

Pic of the crack!
(http://i1184.photobucket.com/albums/z327/meza2011/P1110925_zpsf7f05f31.jpg)

Hi

Here comes another update from my clutch:
Yesterday I pulled my engine to check the clutch, there 57 launches but only a few with nitrous on the parts:
[attachment=1]
Clutch disc still smooth and shiny 6.31mm thick (appr. 0.15mm wear)


[attachment=2]
still fairly flat and didn't wrap at all


[attachment=3]
pressure plate wear plates are softer and therefore there is more wear on them


[attachment=4]
maximum wear of the wear plates is 0.35mm per side.

Total wear of the clutch after 57 launches is about 0.8mm and it's still usable and as the clutch disc shows only 0.15mm wear I will only change the wear plates next time.

So long

MeXX

How much does your Ghia weigh Mexx?

Dear Walter

My car weights right at the tree with diver fuel and a full nitrous bottle ;D ;D

So light

MeXX

Thanks! Thats very light indeed. Great job!
I think total weight makes a difference in how a clutch 'survives'.

Hi

Here comes another update from my clutch:
The last time I pulled my engine to check the clutch, there were 85 launches the last 20 with nitrous on the parts:

[attachment=2]

Clutch disc still smooth and shiny 6.28mm thick (appr. 0.18mm wear)


[attachment=1]


still fairly flat and didn't wrap at all


[attachment=4]

flywheel wear plates are softer and therefore there is more wear on them


[attachment=3]

pressure plate wear plates are softer and therefore there is more wear on them

maximum wear of the wear plates is 0.38mm per side.

Total wear of the clutch after 85 launches is still beyond 1mm and it's still usable and as the clutch disc shows only 0.18mm wear I will only change the wear plates next time.

So long

MeXX

Hi

Just returned  from NitrOlympX.

Here is another update from my clutch:
I have done another 5 launches on Nitrous;
As the 60 ft has to come down the nitrous level at the tree has to go up  ;D


[attachment=1]

[attachment=2]

[attachment=3]

[attachment=4]

MeXX

Do you have to use a tilton hydraulic clutch release with this setup.

No.

A little easier than adjusting a REV6... :)

(http://www.vwnorge.no/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=17998.0;attach=243162;image)

Erlend,

What parts have you used on your setup?

I'll send you an PM :)

 8)

Thanks for reply!

Thomas H
Barbapapa Racing

Got my clutch management installed and bleeded.
Let's hope it works good
 (http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160421/f9a635cf33994bafee921996305ab85e.jpg)



Verzonden vanaf mijn iPhone met behulp van Tapatalk

 No clutch news anymore?

As i switched to an new engine, and had to make a new flywheel,

why not a  new clutch also?

After a lot of problems its working now. ;D

All this talk about custom clutches..  :)

My stage 4 + thick Black Magic (and CMS) went 1.441 60-foot at SCC2016. Full steel car. 215/65-15 DOT's.

No need to make it custom or difficult  ::)

It will be when you want to go fast :D ;D  and I thought you had day moulding wings on that car?

Thats probably why he wenter 0.07 faster ... :-D

The goal is to reach 1.3..  :o

With 2500lbs car(and driver)
1.7l Turbo engine.

IMHO its better to have more rotating mass to get the car launch properly.
In comparison to the Subaru/AP Clutch-flywheel crankshaft assembly now i got 15kg more weigt.

15 kg???

Yes.

+8kg Crankshaft
+7kg Clutch/Flywheel

Ok. Heavy steel car but day mouldings.. and a heavy steel 6-point cage. And real glass!

I even have a roof!  ;D

 :D 

 I have a roof on my 67 to, similar car to yours as well :P   only went 1.45 60ft though, maybe with some C/M it will go quicker ;D

1,45!!! That's slow man  ;D :P

Yep but ok for a cable and no tricks or fancy stuff like C/M  :o, and still went 10.42 so something works ;) :D

You should bring the white car to SCC! Then we could have a big power adder '67 matchup!

Torgeir, you and me. Closest one to 9.99 wins a cup of tea?

So if I go 9.80 and you run 10.05 you win? doesn't seem right ;D  Wont be this year as Drag week will take all my budget up

So it must be the fiberglass that makes all the difference  :P
My old '65 street car with fiberglass body parts ran a best of 1.29 on dot tires, stage 3 + black magic. The chassis car has a tricky clutch and real slicks, but is slower to 60ft. BUT it is 100% steel  ;D
Jyrki

Haha, well.. Best ET wins  ;D

 ;D Very good 60ft for DOTs on your old car, this year your steel car should 60ft better than that though  :)

Hi clutch experts  ;D

Want to use the McLeod 8" clutch cover with B/M Disc for my 3.0 Pauter (hoping for 300hp  ???).

For the clutch setup i have a steel pressure ring made by Pauter and a aluminum ring (Picture) here. Which one would you use, some experience with distortion on the light one?


Thanks for helping!
Stefan

I think a steel (rubbing) ring is usually used, in order to use an alu flywheel (not the other way around?)?

My recent update with two new and mostly thicker plates, which meant I could remove my steel ring alltogether (hence the small holes where the attachment screws were):

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4538/26863559729_6c40e7e8c6_b.jpg)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4572/38607197252_f90c10c228_b.jpg)

what dual discs ? where you bought them ?

Tilton.
As I use a G50 transmission, which has the same spline as Mendeola, these have 23x 1" spline.
Bought in the US online at one of the big race part shops, forgot the name atm, but will post it later for you ;)

Airspeed, that is a very light flywheel  :o is it a 200m?

4,2kg; its a chinese chro-mo 200mm version, but the disks are only 177mm outer diameter (inch size converted), but the inside minimum diameter of the disks exactly fits the 200mm parth of these flywheels, which is pretty lucky/briljant if you ask me :-)

Hi volks...

Found a nice video of a TF clutch...
enjoy ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1V6nBdiK118

Servus Martin,

looks good.
Do you use still the single clutch on your setup ?


Stefan

Hi Stefan...

Yep still single disc setup.... even more... to keep the package tight and light it is a double disc  (6,5mm thick) used as a single disc...
Although higher launch RPM +9000.... is causing significantly more wear.... especially on unprepared tracks like Zerbst, where I had to slipp the clutch 1.52s on the last run.....

MeXX

Hi
The thing about the clutch on an NA car is more sensitive
Than on a car that has a boost
If you are going to use the clutch Infon in a VW, you should look at prostock what they do with it
After being C C in prostock (v8) (promod) o love Vw (pro stock about 1500 hp o 1066kg) When we started to use that knowledge in a NA vw the numbers went down to 60 and Et
What we started to do was go there with a heavy flywheel because the power on the engine is not enough to use the slip in the clutch
We went from 1.44 to 1.38 then with a lot of adjustment we were down to 1.34
Since you measure your slip pressure on the clutch, it is very important
Uploads a film of how we work with clutch in the prostock world
Seeing Topfuel is not right because you have too much effect so you remove type 8000hp on the starting line in the clutch Same with promod where we can remove 2000 hp in the clutch
/// Micke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QggcByD3Njs&ab_channel=NHRA

This!
You either go with a really light combo (aluminum flywheel+steel friction surface) on a true CENTRIFUGAL clutch, like the prostock ones, or you go with a heavier flywheel on a conventional setup.
This will give you more momentum and really help to launch. You can even start leaving with a lower RPM to take it easy on the tranny and everything else.

Some pix of my actual clutch setup...
Before and after service...

[attachment=1]

[attachment=2]

[attachment=3]

More pix....

[attachment=1]

[attachment=2]

[attachment=3]

[attachment=4]

Oh I do like the weight you have taken out of that PP cover  :D