The Cal-look Lounge

I've been looking at some pictures of DKP1 cars and they all have the "clean" exhaust look, meaning, no merged header outlet sticking out like nowadays, and also no big nasty hanging muffler like nowadays, back then, it seems everyone made it a point to "tuck" the exhaust in and under the car.

So, given this, I would assume that no merged headers were used on the street back then?  In other words, everyone ran an extractor with either stock heater boxes or jtubes?

I guess most guys back then had 1700's with IDA's, so a 1.5" extractor with jtubes would work great.

I've often wondered this myself. I've got an old 1 1/2" Four Tuned merge header, I'm curious to know about when it was made and how far the collector stuck out. Did guys usually cut the flange back to get it behind the apron? Or did they use another brand?

I have a '71 DDS catalog and the merged header in it (probably an S&S) is a totally different design than today's "long nozzle" merged headers.  The DDS one is much farther back and doesn't have the longer merging area that today's headers have.  I believe that it was later found that the longer collector increased power, so therefore, all today's merged headers have the longer shnozzle. 

Personally, I don't care about giving up a few HP in the name of vintage correctness, I wish someone produced the old tucked style today.  I'm sure Tiger at A1 could probably accomodate....

I bought a 1-1/2 meged Berg (4-Tuned) exhaust from Mike Hunsaker in 1973ish, well used even at that point. And you guys are right, they just did not stick out beyond the apron edge that much (not like the A-1s of today). I ran a single QP muffler, but I am not sure which muffler Mike had on it from the get-go.

I think you guys may be confusing some of the headers that had shorter runners (tubing length) with a standard short collector versus true merged headers.  There were 1 1/2" and 1 5/8" headers out there that resembled the merged headers, but with a shorter ("standard") collector.  Again, these were competition headers with shorter tubing length.  Nothing "merged" about them.  As I recall, S&S sold a bunch of them.

The "merged" reference relates to the longer collector design that improved flow and helped with RPM's.

look here (http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,13872.0.html)  ;)

The flange on the Berg doesn't extend past the rear apron.

http://www.glenn-ring.com/engine2/images/IMG_4947.jpg

Cool.  So that one predates the "short" collector version that is in the 71 DDS catalog, I suppose.

I want a 1 5/8" short collector version along with a single QP, so if anyone has a lead, let me know.

There were two styles way back then: street and competition. The major names were FourTuned and S&S.

The street style bolted right up to the heater boxes. the tube length was adjusted to compensate for the heater boxes.

The competition style included a pair of J-Tubes to replace the heater boxes on cylinder #s 1 and 3. The tube length on cylinder #s 2 and 4 were adjusted to equalize with the combined length of the J-Tube and the slip fit extension into the collector. The tube lengths were all the same-consistent with the prevailing thought at the time that the runners all had to be the same length.

The street version (which used the heater boxes) had a different design for cylinder #s 2 and 4. They were lengthened, to match the combined length of 1 and 3. However the bends into the collector were very different than the competition style.

The design differences are readily apparent when looking at the collector and the tube bending going into the collector based on the use.

The 3 bolt collector/flange never came out beyond the edge of the rear apron. A short collector/flange was used on both. In later years and subsequent designs, a longer collector/flange was used on competition styles which extended the flange beyond the rear apron.

Because of the competition in the marketplace at the time, manufacturers were constantly touting their dyno tests with their designs. I ran both on the street with single mufflers courtesy of S&S.

Much of this work came out of the header design and construction done by Hedman, Hooker, Doug Thorley, Jardine, Tyree. The merged collector design came out of the market demand by V8 owners to use headers on the street with a connected muffler system. Much of this V8 technology was adapted to the early designs for equal runner length header systems for the aircooled vw motor. 

This wasn't too hard to find.   ::)

Here is the competition Fourtuned header on the cover of everyone's favorite book.   Look at that smallish collector. ;D

Not sure what size tubing it is, but looks like 1 5/8"

I never noticed how short that collector is. That would tuck the exhaust away very well.

That link shows a nice VW bus, John   ;D 

FWIW, the red Fourtuned header on the cover of Hot to Hot Rod is the same header as shown in the 71 DDS catalog. 

Would the collector length determine rpm range the motor runs at peak preformance?

Danny, yes, I believe the longer collector was found to make more peak HP many years ago (read the Exhaust section in the How to Hot Rod VW's book), henceforth, every merged header made today has that long collector. 

Anyone have an old late 60s Fourtuned catalog that they could scan a few pages in and post up?

Thanks , Dont know if this right or not, But I was told that they would cut the collector length at the point where metal stopped turning blue on collector while dyno'n at certain RPM ?

Exhaust tuning is the most effective way to increase volumetric efficiency in a NA engine, while the piston create a suction of 1 psi in the intake port, the exhaust, when correctly done can add 4 to 5 psi of suction to that!
The formulas to correctly calculate the headers have probably been around since the fifties, so by using them you quickly understand that there is no one size fits all headers.

The primary pipe size are calculated from the flow capacity of the exhaust port.
The Length of primaries is adjusted to give the volumetric efficiency a kick at the place in the rpm range you feel you need it, some use it to remove any dips in the curves resulting from intake tuning. And the length's need to be be the same.
Next commes what we usually call the collector, the most important there is the size it results in, the secondary pipe (the pipe to the muffler) I've seen people recommend that you multiply the primary size with 1,75 to calculate the secondary size.
The shape and diverging angle of the collector is less important according to some and very importing according to those selling them.
The length of the secondary pipe is of greater importance than the primaries, and also this pipe is considered as a part of the collector by the v8 boys. The length of this should be adjusted according to the characteristics of the engine. A street engine should have secondary length of about 20 " and engines peaking around 8500 should be 10" long. The purpose of this is to have the exhaust pulses reflect at the end of the secondary pipe, and they only turn when they reach "open space" (meaning a big size difference) we would call it the end of the stinger or beginning of a open muffler.
The sizing of the muffler comes from how much hp your engine is producing, take that number and multiply it wit 2.2 and you now know the cfm size of the muffler.

I dint know much about this stuff, but I keep reading books to learn, and it seems to me that something has been lost since the time people made their own headers. Or are we right where we want to be with what we can get of the shelve.

Now I've got a question thats been bothering me for awhile....Were the Berg headers made by Fourtuned & S&S ...? because the flared tips are different like on Glenn Rings Berg system and like on Doug Bergs 67...? also they sit different also which S&S and Fourtuned both did ..! The S&S mufflers had a "Longer split" at the flange where the Fourtuned had a more "Shorter split"  now the old Berg systems I have seen have had "Booth" the look of a Fourtuned and a S&S..Did they change up somewhere..?

I think that the Berg systems were made by Phoenix but I prepared to be corrected ;)

saw this exact motor several years ago at GBE. Restored by the guys there.

 ;)

that collector was the same as the original one??

Wow, it looks like it's the same one to me.  :o

When I first worked @ BH, circa 1990-1991, we carried two versions of what was referred to as a "merged" header, in 1-1/2" (from Phoenix). I can almost remember the part numbers... but it's been 20+ yr.
Anyway one was like the one that is more familiar to most today, longer collector where 4 pipes actually "merged" and used J-pipes that came with header, which were closer to case than heater boxes or replacement J pipes. Then we also carried what we used to call "street merge" which was 1-1/2" (I think) and the collector was more like a street extractor. I think your usual single muffler or duals would bolt to it, where the competition one required merged "duals". I seem to remember the street merge came with J Pipes.
Then we stocked 1-5/8 and 1-3/4" (big flange), in addition to the Bug, TII, TIII and 181 extractors. One entire container in the back lot was all Phoenix headers and mufflers. And all the different mufflers, single QP, dual QP and for a while the hide a ways that went UP into the RR fender (just chrome tip peeked out from under fender lip). For a while, the Turbo Trip mufflers for merged were the hot sellers and "the" muffler to run before we saw the wave of A1-type mufflers in Northern CA, circa 1996-97. Think I bought mine in '96 from Roger @ Heads Up. I actually liked the tone of the Turbo Trip mufflers on a good street car.
The good old days 8)

Funny story.  I called Tiger at A1 and asked him if he could build an old school merged header with the "short" collector.  He was cordial but at the end he said he would not build it because the modern merged headers are better.  I also have a feeling he thought I was slightly insane.  Ha. 

I ended up buying a Bugpack 1 5/8 merged and I'll used a single QP on it.  :D