The Cal-look Lounge

I'v been asked by finnish cnc machineshop to 3D cad develope a billet head for type 1 engine.  Would there be need for it? Head would be bare and available for 94mm and 101.6 cylinders and few other variations, like big or small ports, 6-stud bolt spacing etc.




(http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/377/vri0.jpg)


(http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3529/vxd9.jpg)


 

I think the Type 1 heads are well covered by numerous options already, just my opinion.

A nice Type 4 head however........

yes, type 4...............

Hello Alex,
very nice copy of my CNC head  :D :D :D

Best regards Thorsten

Actually it was designed first to compete with JPM heads at last summer, Tommis Billet thought that they could make it cheaper than JPM.   Not exact copy of anybodys head, but resembles your heads, Thorsten  :D But top fins are not high, no dual sparkplugs, two bore sizes, two portsizes may be offered.  


Finnish racers have asked 54x41 valves and 6-stud attachment and even designed for use of cheaper chevy valvetrain parts, LS series springs, retainers, valves and rockers

Why do you want 54 valves and have not enough material to do the port for it. There are enough heads on the market for every need . Autocraft,Pauter,CB CD heads , JPM and bugpack super flow or angel flow . These cover all you need

Udo

I dont want 54x41 valves, i think we must put some limits before manufacturingin heads.

Surely the cost to put these into production is massive, how do you expect to get those costs back when two people have already said the market covered. Admire your skills just not what I would put into production.

No, i am not by myself putting these to production.   That company is going to  :)  Owner of the company asked/suggested some specials features if we could have some advantages. Since anyway they want to make heads for two of their VW's, and i have a complete 3D model. I might get one head pair as a prototype from them.

The market will be there if you can offer something others don't. Performance - Quality - Price.
If the gains in one or more of these areas are not substantial, I think it the sales potential is very limited.

Yes, i know.   It needs something special to offer, or it wont be a successfull.

Possibly we get first head pair out of oven in a two next months, for the test engine.  


(http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/9018/8egm.jpg)


(http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/8664/2fru.jpg)


(http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/1194/0to8.jpg)

I would prefer a bail clip type rocker cover.

You can also use stock or aftermarket bail clip valvecovers.

Excuse my ignorance, but knowing very little about the process why would you be getting the heads "out of the oven"  ? I thought they were billet not cast ? and if they are going to be ready for the test engine then have the heads been machined already? can you provide pictures? it would be interesting to see them in the raw just machined state. not being a computer person I don't see the details from a CAD drawing :o

And if they are that close then can you tell us how will they will differ from the JPM and TP heads?

cheers Richie

Sorry, i havent seen the machined version yet, i am also waiting.   "out of oven", just a saying :)

Ofcourse, heads are close / similar as TP and JPM heads, but as cnc machined, some alternative versions can be produced, if people want, almost anything is possible. 

Ok thankyou, so what port & chamber design, shape etc will you base them on?  say for a 4inch engine? will there be different chamber& port for turbo and N/A?

and do you have a rough idea on price yet?

cheers Richie

Yes, both 94/101.6 heads have different chambers, and any chamber design can be done, there should not be much extra cost, if not at all.

I cannot yet confirm the the price, because manufacturer will decide it.  But it will be around 2000€.  More manufacturing, less it costs.

I actually just designed the head for themselves, but of course i shall do all the modifications to the head at future.

  I hope this does not come off as being negative about your project but if I was going to put out the effort you will expend on this I would have tried to do something new instead of redoing a more than 20 year old design. Look at the intake  ports of the CB Strip Dominator , http://www.cbperformance.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=1606
           If the old Comp Eliminator ports were the ticket they would have just shifted the original castings to allow for bigger valves . I am NOT an engine or parts designer and your talents are far beyond mine but if I were going to invest myself in something like this I would talk to the best head porters near you, maybe not even VW related and get their ideas and start with a clean slate. Good luck with your project , Mike McCarthy

This is something that i do not understand too why people still do this 20 year old intake design that other still make ... makes no sense
except Johannes who changed it a little. Or a set of CB cnc heads
Udo

I do have other model, which has 910 style intakes, but its far from complete..  However, it is possible to have heads with this style of ports.

Manufacturer and i havent really  talked about different style of ports yet.   

Exactly, what I don t understand is why nobody makes a new x (cross) head like the Porsche 911 heads, inlet port and exhaust port in one line. They would flow much better, right?
And not like the vw heads with a step, type 1 from vertical inlet to horizontal step to the horizontal exhaust , or the type 4 from vertical with horizontal step to vertical exhaust.  (hope it makes sense what I wrote)
I know the difficulty is what kind of cam valve train (rockers) would you use.

But most of those x heads like alfa s, fords, Renault's make around 200HP out of 2.0 liter engines.

Regards Edgar

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1367599

Typ 1 engine platform does not allow crossflow- design due to pushrod location. How ever, it is possible to improve flow and combustion properties of inline valve head like JPM and various other manufacturers have done. Personally I have never liked the existing combustion chamber design of  OEM style and many aftermarket heads due to a fact that they do not support proper pressure recovery of intake flow. This is where I see the CNC- head would be able to “shine” especially when you combine it with a better valve location for both intake and exhaust. Valve train may need some drastic changes and new thinking, for manifolding and valve covers I’d choose something that is already available. If you look at the state of the art 2- valve pushrod engines (Nascar, NHRA & IHRA Prostock and latest inline V8 castings)  it's easy to see the direction to shoot for. Production and marketing will always limit the final design, CNC would add flexibility.     

flow bench and a pitot.

One if not the most important improvement should be rocker arm set up. Just look at the Component
Development heads Roger has or the one offs that Mexx has done. Longer fulcrum length and higher ratios as well as split shafts and 3 rocker studs per side.

x 2, complimented with a camshaft profile which takes a full advantage of vw's large diameter mushroom lifters or a roller cam.

Engineering friend of mine that did the joint venture of Gene Berg crankshafts with cores forged in Sweden (and the GB rocker arms), did a 911 style casting core for either OHC or pushrod solution.
This was for VW 4 cylinder application. Very much lookalike to 911 and large 2 valve solution.
It was done in the early 1980´s.

My suspicion is that the al cast cores still are in California where they were 5-6 years ago.

Sink the valves, then radius the seats into the chamber.

It sure helps but you'll need a continuous shape from the top seat angle to the edge of quench area.
Most of the combustion chambers are too flat on the floor and there's not enough material around the seats
to create a shape which supports high lift flow and even seat discharge distribution. Chamber shape can be used to manipulate
velocity profile of the port making it even more important. Some flat roof, 4- valve combustion chambers are also welded
and shaped like a clover leaf for the same reason
   

Whoo those would be interesting. Any pics of those.

Ps I have seen pics of your engines on the typ4forum, also those type 4 with porsche overhead cams, nice.

Unfortunately there has been some delay by the manufacturer, but the heads will be made. I'v done minor changes to the head 3D model. Very eager too see how first pair of head will assemble & work at test engine.   I havent yet tried the solidworks flowXpress allthough..


http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,22351.0.html

WPH, what are your thoughts on this chamber shape?  :)

[attachment=1]

I see no other reason for that shape other than lowering compression. Stagnant, flat area behind top seat angle and a reduced squish area.
What the h*** were they thinking, not a high performance item. 

There is no consideration to flame travel and port flow in thiat chamber.................

Why do people cut those pockets that we weld up on type 4 914 engines ?? Looks bad - sorry

Udo

Unfortunately there has no been any progress at this summer, i havent got contact to the machine shop at this summer... So i dont what is going on, they have allthough my head 3D cad model.

I have some plans of course, but time will tell.

I'v got an opportunity to get billet heads with 92/94/101.6 etc bore and small or big ports.  

I do have coarse model with 910 ports, i could draw more finished version and ask cnc machining price. What is the angle of intake flange?

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/742/7Mq8RD.jpg)

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/913/PAdwnO.jpg)

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/537/Oc39PC.jpg)

Started to ask again from machine shops, we will see if its possible to make them at affordable prices..

-Alex

 :) looks like you are on the right way

Udo

Does anybody nice guy know the manifold angle at 910 heads? :)

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1280x1024q90/661/enlO5Y.jpg)

I once designed two flanges for lounge member ang got made (dont remember anymore who), but these flange dimensions i have:

(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/908/hWo9ug.jpg)

The angle is 30 degreese

Udo

Ok thanks, i think its different at the CE style heads.

CE and superflow have 45

Udo

Sorry for posting on an old Thread!

Hi Udo,


are you sure that the angle is 45 degree? I think it is 35 degree. I looked after the angle because i need it for the manifolds.

Regards
Steven

Hello,

the angle is 35 degrees.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q90/922/oSNQeX.jpg)



I am on the verge of getting made two sets of heads, both 101.6 bore.

Still thinking about material. Possibly 6061 T651 or 6082 T651 which is easier to get in Europe. Seems that most US billet head manufacturers use 6061 T6, but these are V8 heads..

I have been searching temperature versus tensile strength charts, so far found 6063, 6061, A356 and 6082 charts.


(http://www.volkkaripalsta.com/keskustelu/uploads/monthly_05_2014/post-1143-0-45290500-1400171217.png)

(https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7XP4lO3g2ZU/V3JJ56Q6elI/AAAAAAAAAjU/vTfF-c9d7yIelMyP2LiSEzspesHWqJmWwCLcB/s1600/alalloy1.png)

Alex, have you considered changing the rocker setup from the 2 stud to 5 stud or 6 stud?

My 910s have T&D rockers.  They are on two separate shafts, one for each cylinder.  Each shaft is held down by three studs.  They entire assembly sits in a steel cradle, that is bolt into the head.

I don't think I've seen valve lengths, or spring diameters.  But I would definitely take it into consideration.  1.550 spring diameters, very long valves to allow for mucho lift.  Rocker placement to allow for correct geometry when used with very high lift, tall rocker box, etc.

I've ported intake manifolds, clearance cases, etc, but when I assembled my 2724 with Geers/Autocraft 910s, and used the Geers engineering valve covers, I had to port the valve covers because the rocker arm adjuster screw would rub.

That brings me to another consideration, they look like stock VW valve covers, but I would suggest using the autocraft geometry and their valve cover.  depending on the valve cover, you will get 5 or 6 studs, oring seal.  I've seen on some of Jaycee's engines they weld a plate to an 044 head that adapts to a 910 valve cover.

Did i look for the autocraft angel because of your drawing ? I would not make any more heads with super flow intake. there are so many on the market that work , autocraft intake would give an advantage in the flow

Udo

Design has currently 5-bolt attachment for rocker setup.  Almost any valvespring will fit, as the the pocket size can be changed up to 40mm without any extra price or problems.
Current design uses 117mm length valves but longer valves can be fitted. Valvecovers are billet design with O-ring and stock bails which allow pauter rockers even with 54x40 valves.

First pair of Type 1 billet heads are ready. These heads will go with 50x40 type 4 valves to street/strip 90x101.6=2919cc engine which will run with E85 fuel.

We will be using stock bails with billet valvecovers, but valvecover seal flange at bottom ends have smaller radius, this will make possible to have up to 54x40 valves with pauter rockers.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q90/924/IyZpzN.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q90/921/L5S6EY.png)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q90/923/dx7TO2.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/1280x1024q90/921/iWczUV.jpg)

I 'v got the first time now the billet head to my own hands from my friend.

2mm thick and with 3mm gap the cooling fins look very good.

Ports have good size short side radius and very little porting to be done. At end of this year, heads will go the hearporter to get finished and for flowbench testing.

Tested Pauter 1.4 rockers and they fit very well, roller end of the rocker is at center of the valvestem.

Got one valvecover from my friend who made them with 3 Axis CNC machine, they fit very tight and bails work like on stock valvecovers.

Overall quality of the heads is nice, but i was hoping a bit improvement at machining quality if order my own heads from Elmer Racing later at this year, as they have better tools and experience. Material would be 6082 T651

https://www.facebook.com/ElmerRacingDotCom/

Heads can be either 94mm bore or 101.6mm bore, ports for 48x38, 50x40 or 54x40 valves or specific setup. 54x40 choice needs exhaust valves moved outwards about 1,5-2mm.

Chamber on the 101.6mm head is about 55-58cc

Chamber on the 94mm head is about 50-53cc




(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/6905/6QUD4f.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/748/A7R5OI.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/5075/lM6SPq.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/2924/OuK76R.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/5696/dqrIEV.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/9964/fTydci.jpg)
(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/1653/YhGJ8E.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/675x380q90/921/v4zPRJ.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/675x380q90/923/NZRQQU.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/675x380q90/924/7VNxqv.jpg)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img923/5651/BVZ1Qi.jpg)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/675x380q90/922/cMhH42.jpg)

...