The Cal-look Lounge

So it happened at the finals.   Been stuck at 16.02 since mid last yr.. then slammed in a 15.53 at the finals.  Last run.  Massive breakout on a 15.99 dial and forced Luke to also break out. (He said he couldn't catch me so had to use his nitrous and he broke out by a mile too.  But less than me so I went out.. But happy!)

So I wonder if changing the weber idf 40s to 44s would be a good or a bad move?   
I'm building a 1641cc with a w130 cam and probably 9.5/1 or 10.5/1 CR and I have some well worked heads with match ported Manifolds.  So i'm wondering if my current 40's will work nicely on that engine, and the 44s that I've been offered on mine.   Are these carbs too big for either engine?   I was initially thinking some 36's on the 1641, but these have been offered and I'm considering handing down my current carbs.  :-)

If the 44s sound like a good thing for my 1911cc Type4, but the 40s, too big for the 1641, then I could always move on the 40s.. Just looking at my options.

I used both 44's and 40's (40's on taller manifolds with update kits) on a 110x1.25 cammed 1600. The 44's worked fine but the 40's gave more low end. Ran 14.8's with the 44's.
I'd stick the 44's on your 1641.

This is good feedback.  What sort of jet sizes did you use?   14.8 is quick on a 1600.  Is the car super light?   
I am well aware that a 1600 - 1641 is basically nothing and a nonsensical upgrade on it's own, but we have a near perfect 1300 AS41 case that needs Zero Line Boring and so I figured lets build it as a 1641.  I have some decent heads coming to replace the 1300s and 1.25s and with the cam am looking for about 90+ HP.  (I've seen stock 1600 with a set of carbs tuned right goto 80hp.. )

The engine will be a second engine really and more of a learning curve engine. But would like to do something to the Type4 perhaps to upgrade it.   However, I could fuel inject it..

My old motor made 98hp as I recall. The car was pretty light, and had a 1.48, 1.04 on a 4.12. It was a daily driver, my only car at the time. I know the 44's used the standard 36 vents, but other than that I can't remember the specifics. It was a long time ago ;)
The 1300 case still needs boring to accept the 85.5/87 cylinders. I strongly recommend forged pistons with that much compression. You can build a 1915 for the exact same money and have a real animal on your hands ;)

My thoughts, if the heads are as nice as you say why not just bore the case and heads for 90.5 or 94 pistons?
For £150 extra it doesn't seem worth not doing when its all apart. 44's on a 1914cc would work nice

Lee

I'm pretty sure the 1300 case doesn't need any machining to take 1600/1641 cyls.   100% sure I'd say.    I have thought about the 1914 route, but it isn't just as cheap I don't think.   I'd have to re-think the head valves and the machining of the case is not expected.  Probably want to full flow it..  I'd probably end up wanting to stroke it... (While it's all apart.. Might as well) it all adds up.  

This is my first engine build and I'm trying to keep it reall simple and inexpensive (not "cheap").  I hear you on the CR.  Perhaps a little lower might pay, but the plan is to keep costs as low as possible.   Take advantage of others that are upgrading and buy stuff like a cam on the cheap and perhaps even some forged pistons second hand because someone else is going big.    This is how the heads came about.  Customer upgraded, but by the time I got to the heads, the rest of it had been sold off, or I could have bought the whole top end...  

98HP is pretty close to what I was expecting from this small revvy engine.   My type4 is a 1911 with 99hp... But I think it's fueling all wrong.  it's running rich low down in the revs and better high up.   so cruising to the start line is cokeing up the plugs and causing me issues.
But playing with the mixture got me that 15, so I guess I wondered if I had bigger carbs on that engine, and put the 40s on the 1641 and jetted them both better, I'd have 2 cool engines.   I'm in two minds as to what to do with the Type4 at the moment so this little engine buys me the space and time to decide.

Now that I think about it, you're right about the case not needing machining. Just the heads do to upgrade from a 1300-1600.

Tell us about these heads.

This is it.   I basically got "given" a 1300 TP with a car I bought which has a single port engine.  He said "I have another engine in the other barn, but it's probably just a paperweight... " so I helped him clear the space as a "favour".  ;D

It had no end float and turned freely so we thought of a plan.  On stripping it, the case needs ZERO work other than a clean.  It's never been bored and is so close to the factory tolerance it's as good as new.   
So yeah, I just need, Cyl and pistons, Cam,  Heads (All of which can be had nice and secondhand), and a 200mm flywheel.   And obviously carbs.. which is the main crux of the thread.   

Debating Straight cut cam gears vs stock. But they aren't expensive. 

As to the Heads.   The heads came off an engine that Danny at Reichspeed built when the engine was made bigger.  It's had the ports matched to the manifolds which are included.  And came off another engine that was upgraded that was also running a w130 cam, .450 valve lift on 1.1 rockers, a .050" deck and comp ratio of 9.5:1.
They have got HD double valve springs already and are also coming with a set of CB 1.25 Rockers. The ones with the cup adjuster at the pushrod end and a swept pad on the valve.   

Not 100% sure what valves are in it or how much other porting work has been done, but knowing danny, it's probably not any old tat.   

So for my project they are pretty much bolt on!  8)

Ok. More spec on the heads.
40x35.5 valves , dual springs , c/moly caps , 12mm plugs , 43cc chambers . Mild port work done.

id say grow a pair and build a bigger motor  :D
well done on the pb by the way  ;D

Are the heads still stock bore?

Thanks Danny.   It's a whole new ball game to build a bigger motor.  Plus I have a bigger motor but this is a toy / learning engine / back up engine.   It buys me the time to SORT my type4.. I don't wanna start on it then end up at easter with an engine in bits...


I believe so as they came off a 1641 and they don't need re-boring for that.   The bore size will be changed by the new cyls, but the outer diam is stock.

Ok...

So lets play Devils Advocate here..   (I may have a buyer for the Type4, so cash will be avail to change the plan... )

Lets say I DO feel like going BIG instead of 1641....   The simple revvy motor was the plan.. but:
I have a case and I have these heads.  How far will these heads take me?   I'll be honest.  1776 is like a half way house.   Kinda "I went a bit bigger but didn't have the balls to step up... "   
IF I'm gonna be having the extra machine work done to bore the case, I think cost wise, I should probably just machine it a bit bigger and go to a larger size here.   It's not much more..   so instead of boring to 90.5 for a 1776, i go the suggested 94mm and have a 1914. 
I think this should work with my head and valve setup and the 1.25 Rockers.  And probably the W125 Cam I have now procured.

So... do I stop at 1914 and can I use the heads and valves I have?
 
I'm looking at a Counterweighted Crank anyway.  The cost on the Cranks New and forged all appears to be more or less the same, so I can just pick one. Both 1776 and 1914 will be fine with a 69mm crank.  BUT.  If I chose an 82mm Crank I can step up to the next size.

Basically the plan could be either a 2110 or a 2276.   (which my my reckoning would be the difference between 90.5mm and 94mm..

So What would you chose for a cam and heads?   Stick with the W125 cam?  If not, it's just as easily moved on as it was to get it. 

What sort of power should I see from these kind of specs?    150?   More?

All "Hypothetically speaking"  ;) ;D

Leaving it all to the very very very very very last minute is sooooo unlike you


Personally I think you need to make your mind up what you want, you either commit to spending money or you don't.
can't see the point in building a half arsed 2276, the heads aren't upto that size neither are the 44's - yes it'll run, but they'll definitely be a limiting factor, but then if you are going to do it properly GEARBOX!! you'll want another couple of k on that as well (unless you have a unexaustable amount of gearbox's and don't mind going to the start line with 'will it, won't it' on your mind)
If I was you, I'd just build a 1641, you got the bits to make a decent little motor, build it, get it running right - this is your first build remember.
You don't want to be spending loads of money on parts then throwing them all over the track.

Ditto Bruce....

Build the smaller motor properly, spend your money on a dyno session and then enjoy!

my old setup was a 091 first gear in a built box and 2276 with 120 cam and stock rockers slightly bigger heads than you got and it ran 13.6 na with the belt on
i then fitted a fk87 and had the cr upped it then ran 12.2 na and 11.7 with a 30 hp shot of gas,i then had the heads wedgeported and it ran 11.45 with the same shot of gas
,then a better box and with more gas i ran 10.7.
this years motor is into 10.4 and the box is still holding together

whatever you decide will never be enough to satisfy you in the long run ,but as bruce says get a decent box to start with then you can add power to the motor as and when
a decent 1914 with gas will get you into the 11s anton ran mid 11s and dude also ran 11s both with 1914 motors i believe and a bit of gas

Stefs box for sale here - shame that isn't IRS, because at £1800 it's a decent price and would be upto whatever you'll throw at it for quite some time.

1915 with your heads, 125x1.25, and 44's will be a really fun combo for not a lot of cash. You can always upgrade it to 48's, or bigger valve heads, or even a turbo/nitrous if that's your bag.

You know me bruce.   LastMinuteSteve.com... ;D  But invariably in ends up done, just me with more stress and grey hairs.  :D

I guess I might be misleading you all a little.  I'm not hung up on the 44s at all.   They were merely offered and with my original plan I wondered if a hand-me-down scenario from my Type4 was perhaps an idea. But after posting the question things changed.    
The original plan was to build the 1641 and sell mine, then use the cash from mine to buy a pre-built engine from Vzi or here or the like as engines come up with good specs for little money due to "A change of plan" etc.  
However, I guess things had gone quiet after an initial burst of interested buyers, I'd resounded myself to having to keep it and build the 1641 and then do something with the Type 4.  
But.. Out of the blue, Someone has made me a very good offer and I have accepted.   Soo...

We figured why build a little 1641 and buy a second hand bigger engine when we have the cash to just build something bigger.  

Zach, raises one option which also answers a question I asked which is to stick with the heads I have I can feasably go to 1915 (it's weird how some calculators make it 1914 and some 1915 with 94 x 69) and use the heads and rockers I have with a 125 cam.   Tho with a 125x1.25 it's too lary for a turbo..

The option we were thinking about was the 2276.  Figuring the case would be bored to 94 for the 1914 and I haven't bought a crank yet, and an 82 is the same cost as a 69.    So it makes sense to me to use the bigger crank and have the bigger displacement.
With this option, I am fully aware that I cannot use these heads or 44s.  otherwise it will be a half arsed 2276 Bruce.   ;)
I'm thinking 48s.

Box is an issue on both accounts, but I have my ear to the ground on IRS boxes and this is something I can buy and fit last min.  But need to get moving on an engine build.  And I'm not going to be pushing the engine to its limits to start with.  I'd be happy with a time of high 13s -14s to start with but with the knowledge that with a decent box and slicks etc, belt off..  that there is a MUCH quicker capable motor behind me.  It will mean that I'm not worrying too much to start with about the extra weight of a cage ruining all my hard work because I will just have more power.

Danny.  I know you are right.  No engine is ever gonna be "Enough" but I do worry that If I go middle then I will wish I'd gone as big as my budget would let me to start with.
Would you mind posting your 2276 spec?  you say a 120 cam and stock rockers, but what heads / valves did you use?  and what was your initial CR. and what carbs did you use / still use etc.  I have done some light digging and a lot of 2276 use FK Cams rather than W cams.   But these would use 1.4 rockers ideally.

Has anybody had any experience with the MoFoCo 050 head? (http://www.mofoco.com/item.php?item_id=234)   It looks like a big enough head and valve combo to support the 2276.
Also, with Pistons, there is some debate over the quality of Mahle Forged pistons being chinese.. and not all that good..
AA pistons from Cip1 (http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC%2DC10%2D5209) are what I have looked at.

(I'd also be interested in seeing the spec on Anton's and Dude's 1914s as that is some epic times from a small engine.  Granted they are pushing Gas.  And I know Bruce's is the same 1914 but turbo'd and he's running 11 also. )

I think learning about engines and your first build to be a what your saying now is a good spec 2276 isn't a good idea, could well prove to be very costly.
Maybe what you could do is build a mild 1914 in the first instance you can use everything you've got with just B&P's and machine work to get

Then you have options
When you've saved up many pennies:
You sell the mild streetable 1914 and start fresh.
When you get your B&P's get stroker ones so you don't have to change them when/if you go long throw.
Then sell heads, crank, carbs etc etc and buy better ones. But given the only thing you'll be keeping really is the case I'd sell it as a turn key and start afresh

Another thing you should consider is, when you do see high spec engines for sale they are usually built by a respected name in air cooled engines, how many times do you see replies "Who built it", if it's a mild 1914 thats not so critical, but if you're doing a high spec engine, most will run a mile when you reply "me, it was my first build!"

Also with a mild 1914 your stock gearbox will have a better chance of survival.

But TBH if I were you I'd just build a 1641 - you have it at very little cost, if it goes pop you haven't lost a fortune

I hear ya bruce.    I am seriously weighing up the options.   Building a mild 1914 streetable and then selling it when I want something bigger just feels like dejavu.  I had a mild 1911 Type4 streetable engine and I am selling it.  I may as well not have bothered.

The 1641 is still an idea. But to make it any fun, I was gonna push it to the max with a big cam and high CR and a C/weight crank to rev it like crazy.  Then some Gas.  just for fun..

So I guess really it's either a mental 1641.  A mild 1914 (kinda where I just was) or a solid 2276 with potential.

I think this is why I would like some spec lists from existing 2276 / Hot 1914 engines so I can pitch them side by side and add up the parts prices and do the maths.  Then I can see.    The 1641 is a cheap and quick fix, but I would like to see if i can do a more once only build instead.  :-)
I'm not building this on my own either from a book...  :D I have help.  And the difference between the two motors is just parts, and money, so if the money stacks up, then I think I'd rather have a go at the bigger one.   But I hear ya.  Any half arsed build will blow up, but the 1641 won't cost me as much if it does.    I guess we just need to build it properly then rather than like ham fisted monkeys.   ;D

why not turbo the Type 4 or add NOS you have a solid base to start with and will have just a as much fun working out how to get it all to work

cheers andy

Hello all.
Bruce - although this is Steves' motor i will have a hand in getting it together. I havent done anything as big as this before, but think we have the right knowledge in the club and around us. (As long as we steer steve and tie him down occasionally!!)
Its freeing up the cash from his old motor thats spurred it on to be a big cc build. Whats the point of doing it twice - i know that Steve wont be happy with power in a smaller motor!
So yes, thanks for the posts so far people - reading up on the spec so far i'd go Fk8 and 44x37.5 heads on 48IDAs.

Also whats the experience with MoFoCo 050 big valve heads? They seem to be up to spec and a very reasonable price.
http://www.mofoco.com/item/MOFOCO_050_BIG_VALVE_AIR_COOLED_VW_CYLINDER_HEAD/234/c52

aaaaaarr so you'll be building it  ;)

Steve does realize that this will cost a LOT more than the couple of grand from his TIV, like the gearbox will swallow most of that if not all?
Also the rolling road at the end - not cheap time
I know when I was going to build a 2276 I had all the 'big parts' put all the small stuff still came to around £1k
Decent spec engine and box to go with it I can't see you having much change out of £8k and if thats out of budget you should stick to a lower cc engine
I only say that because I know Steve  ;)  ;D

I'd build the 1600 and buy those ercos and save like a mad man  :)

I tried to tell him LOL :D

Can't see why Steve doesn't just nos or turbo the T IV  ???
Maybe change the cam, drop the compression.....  ???

Type4..  Well all those options had gone through my head, but it's just getting a little boring when anything needs doing to it, it's twice the price, or not avail and needs to be manufactured from scratch.  
I've learned this.  To build a 100HP type1 that is probably just as reliable as my 100HP type4 would be half the price.  Hell I could just buy one of many hot type1 motors that have come and go for half what I sold my engine for.   I saw a nice 2161 motor for sale on VZi for £4500 and thought, that would be cool if I had the cash.   And up went my motor for sale. There was another 2276 for sale that needed an ignition system.  Also sold.    So rather than rely on buying a second hand motor we figured we would build one.  
To turbo it I need to go FI really then an exhaust alone is over a grand if I wanna go stainless and not a lot less in steel, then the turbo, the other bits and bobs and my cam needed changing, probably the heads (T4 heads cost stink loads).

With type1 I see many a 'race' part for sale on here, on the facebook forum, on VZi, basically anywhere.  My options are wide.  With Type4, they are narrow..   I love what rich has done with his T4 but I just wanted to be sensible I guess.   It's been like a strange plague.  I have a question and someone has an answer, then goes " Oh.. it's type 4.. then slowly walks away... "

I have been putting together costs and yeah the big stuff is big, but it's all similar costs to the small stuff.   Cranks, cams, piston kits, are all the same cost give or take, it's just a choice.  
Heads are gonna be key, but again, heads can be upgraded without splitting the case and come up for sale quite often.   Type 4?   never see them.  
Even turbo.  If I wanted to go turbo, I could cheat and buy it all off the shelf... Cant with Type4.  I will miss my type4, but I feel it has to be done.   There is a reason that 99% of racers of air cooled motors (Pauter etc excluded) are not running type4..

This being said, is why I wanna try to get some specs of other 2276 engines and copy as far as I can, and with Dean's help, put it all together and hopefully have a strong motor.   Probably keep the CR not too mental to start with and make it a safe strong Big CC motor.    ;D

Steve

so as it always comes down to money, how much have you got to spend? I don't think the wild 1641 would work for the class you run, it would be peaky and difficult to make consistent, a mild-ish 1914 with 44s and a decent exhaust would get a good second off you ET with the stock box still and you could add to it later when money allows[or even add a 78 crank in there now, cost isn't much different and it doesn't need much case clearancing, stuff you could do yourself] just for reference a decent 2276 with IDAs, msd ignition etc etc is proberly well over £6k and that stock gearbox wont last long :o


cheers Richie

that^^^ you're not going to do it on the couple of k you sold the T IV for. if you do it you need to commit to spending that money not cutting corners, sorry if this sounds like I'm trying to piss on your fire, but I know you  ;) I'm actually trying to give you the best advice I can and save you wasting everyone's time and your money,

Build that 1641/79 or  1914, do it right, get it running right, have the sense of achievement.

*edit*
I just spent ages writing, and it did sound like I was just having a go at you  ;D
I'm not.
Good luck

Build your 1914, use larger venturis in your 40IDFs and SAVE your money till you can afford to start BREAKING parts!
Just my opinion ... Nothing so much fun as dreaming about the 'ultimate' combo ... but if You dream like I do, you better start setting aside $$$$$$$!
 ;)
TxT

It's all cool.  I know nobody is getting at me or having a go.  Just trying to help. 

I guess I'm just struggling with the cost.   To build a mild 1914 vs a mild 2276 doesn't seem a whole heap different other than chosing different parts.  I realise that to do it and make an all out race engine it will cost loads.  But I couldn't help seeing this quote on jase's thread


This to me appears to be a "mild" 2276.  The heads I have for the 1641 are 40x35.... Not that I'm considering using them at all. But my point is that I could.  I could tho and put the effort inside and leave it hanging in the heads, ignition and carbs making a "grin" engine but not a full on race engine.  But could easily be sorted with upping the heads and carbs later and adding an MSD.  But the hard work is inside the case. 

What would make things easier for me would be if guys that have a 1914 could post a full spec and likewise a 2276. And I can plot side by side the actual costs.     I think I'm struggling do far as I've done is with my knowledge and the only difference appears to be in machining sizes and crank sizes etc.  I'm missing where the extra £3grand is gonna come from.   ???

Thanks again guys.   ;)

Steve

Here's a parts list for turnkey engine with NO tin or cooling included as its for a race car, everything is new, what do you figure that will all cost ?  I did it all off the top of my head so maybe missed something, hopefully not. I haven't included any prices to see what you make it cost? this doesn't include any machine work or building the engine either, this could be any bore and stroke, you could use what heads you like etc but this is the basis for what you asked :)

Mag case, bored for xx, stroke clearanced, full flowed
Chromoly crank, flywheel, pulley, kennedy clutch cover and clutch disc
Wedgeport heads with match ported manifolds
Idas with linkage and 44mm vents, jetted
Gland nut
Crank end play shims
H beam rods
Pulley bolt
case hardware kit
Case nut kit
Mahle barrels and pistons
Engle cam and lifters
Bolt on cam gear or straight cut gears
Cam plug
Crank gear set
Dizzy drive gear and shims
Crank oil seal
Full flow oil pump and cover
Deep sump[ 2 quart] and sump drain plate
Main, rod and cam bearings
Head studs
Cut to length push rods
Push rod tubes
Gasket set
ratio rockers
Rocker covers
MSD dizzy, coil, leads and MSD 6al ignition box
Oil filter mount and filter, hose and fittings
Oil cooler block off
Fuel pump block off
Exhaust header
Spark plugs


so how much? :o

cheers Richie

My friends' motor is mild. He had those parts lying around so that's what he used. Don't let the "small" valve sizes throw you off, properly done 40x35.5 heads combined with the right combo got the 2276 in Dave Conklin's 67 into the 12's.

the power is in the heads and cost the same weather your hanging them on a 1600 or a 2276.
just because the engine is bigger dont mean its going to make more power, it'll just make the power in a different place.
you need to match the power rev range to what gearing you have, no good haveing a high reving peaky motor and wide spaced gearing as it'll drop out of the rev range when you change gear.
in a street weight car your going to need some torque to make it quick so the bigger engine is easyer to get the torque but harder[ read that as expensive] to get higher peak power from
getting a heavy crank and big pistons to rev is hard on the components, geting the flywheel to stay put on a heavy car is also something you need to look into.
if it was me doing it i would keep it a 69x90.5 and make it rev.
also getting the car weight down is going to help as you have a heavy car [in race car terms]