The Cal-look Lounge

Hey Guys - Here I go again with more question for you  ::) :)

I am planning a full on Old Skool 1679cc (1700) IDA'd motor for my new project - And before everyone says it I know I can build a much bigger/better engine "These Days" But I think that a well built and highly "Blue Printed" mouse motor should be capable of High 13's maybe more :) Lets face it ALOT of these 1679's were built "back in the day" and they ran some pretty good times including a 14.1 by Aronson  :)

I already have:

- Case
- 48 Weber IDA's (37 venturis)
- Berg 3/8 Cromoloy push rods
- Tall IDA manifolds
- Scat mini D port Heads 40x37.5 with dual valve springs
- 1 5/8 Merged Header


I have also been reading about "mank" old 67 which he just sold with a 1679cc motor in it which was Dyno'd at 130bhp which is AWSOME - so I was thinking with a little bit more "blue Printing" you could up this alittle  ;) :)

Here is the Specs:

1679cc Engine Specification

AS41 New crankcase
88mm Thick Wall Mahle Pistons and Cylinders
69mm counterweighted crankshaft
200mm, 12lb, 8 doweled flywheel
Engle FK8 camshaft
JMR 044 cylinder heads (40mmx35.5mm), polished and ported
Autocraft 1.4:1 rockers
Berg chromoloy pushrods
Dual 48 IDA carbs on tall manifolds
Berg 26 mm oil pump
Scat deep sump
Berg 440e Equaliser crank pulley
Kennedy 1700lb pressure plate
15/8” Phoenix merged header
2 ¼” muffler (A1)
HP1 Fram external oil filter
009 Distributor

So come guys - if you could build your "ULTIMATE" Old Skool 1700 IDA'd motor what would the Specs be  ??? ??? ??? :) :) :)

I think you need to swap the cam for an engle 140 and drop the a-1 for dual qp's

w140?  :o

Old School (Oh how I hate how that term is used today!) 1700? Gotta see an Engle 110 in there somewhere...and an 010...massaged stock rods...early Berg linkage (the really ugly one)...SINGLE quiet-pack...Santana power pulley...Fram HP1...SHORT IDA manifolds...stock rockers with the clips wired together...stock valve covers...NO EMPI PARTS... etc, etc... ;D

I like your style, Mr Monki  8)

During 2000, I bought a motor for the ida's at the pomona swap meet.  Story was it came from one of the Volkschancellors cars in the early 80's.  yeah, maybe.  It was a 1679 with non counterweighted crank and 11/1 compression ratio.  Engle 120 cam, ported stock valve heads and a cheap header.  Motor had the lightest flywheel I'd seen, a 10 pounder.  Case became part of my 2110, and heads were reworked for a 1776 in the future.  Heads were cut to 30cc's.  Sold the Skat Traks to Dave Conklin for too cheap.  I put it together for a while, but never ran it.

2 observations about such a set-up. jetting those IDAs ! and gearbox ratios. having cruised to EBI and back with that 67 it ain't slow 8)

I would go for the real 1700cc setup... 74mm crank and 85.5 cyls = 1699cc
No clearancing or cutting the case for bigger cyls... 8)

Greets
Jelle

I thought you might dude - I will drop you a PM later on tonight  :) I guess great minds think alike  ;) :)

i agree with you keith  ;)

The linkage you see there ( one of a kind ) is now in my car. Can you believe that motor was complete w/ EMPI four bolt flange exhaust, was setting in a container for
about 37+ years ?

 :o waouwww incredible art i 'd like to have a similar engine it's look like so original ( i would like to said that it's look like an engine built by the factory )

I LOVE THAT LINKAGE ;D ;D ;D but the manifolds are abit tall and the exhaust ports look a tad small  ;) :)

I have also been thinking about Magneto's I fully trust them BUT how many people did actually run them on the street  ???

Lee i would put a Roller cam Engle 100 spec on 102 lobe centers.

This work great for the Lauffers. :D

you'll have to forgive me dude but I don't quite get that one  ::) :)

I will keep you thinking a bit longer. :D

got your pm dude - i get ya now ;) :) I think  :D

that second motor, with Art's linkage....are those manifolds feeding single port heads?  :o
I have an old book from the late 70's...from Bentley Publishing...shows pic of a road racing Super Beetle motor...dual 48IDAs on short manifolds (mixture screws on inside), Speedwell linkage, power Santana, 010, o.e. 36hp fan housing. Another shot of a VW motor shows 48IDAs feeding a single-port motor. VERY WEIRD...



Jim,
They are early EMPI dual port part manifolds. "talk about a straight shot"...take a note in how close the carb's are to the shroud. of course have the High C/R doesn't help
 or  does it.. ;)

 I take it that the single port to a dual carb set-up was developed (custom made) before the dual port was released to the public?

Monki, found you some barrels and pistons ;D

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Genuine-EMPI-Mahle-88s-Biral-Barrels-Stroker-Pistons_W0QQitemZ200139694606QQihZ010QQcategoryZ107063QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Yep I've already seen those dude - little bit pricey though :o :)

Plus there for a Stroker Crank

Most of The 1679  Motors Back in the 70's Ran this combo
VW Dual Bypass Case
69 mm CW Crank
thick wall 88's
Engle w-120 cam
Engle or German Lifters
Engle Dual Springs
40x35 Big Valve Heads (Mild Oval Port unwelded) compression ratio about 9 to 1
48 IDA's on short Manifolds and Berg Linkage
010 Dist.
1 1/2 Qt deep sump
case tapped for full flow
Fram HP-1 Oil Filter & Mount attched to the Traction bar with a U Clamp
Berg Blue Printed oil Pump
12 lb flywheel
1700 lb Kennedy Press plate
stock size Santana Pulley
12 Volt Blue Coil (German Tan Top)
stock rockers with Berg H.D.Stafts
swivel Feet adjusters
3/8 chromemoly Pushrods
1 1/2 Merged Exhaust with a Single or Dual QP Muffler
36 or 40 H.P. Fan Shroud
Sheet metal all Painted Gloss Black
Chrome Parts: gen. Back Plate,Gen.Pulley,Coil Strap,Dist.Clamp,Dip Stick,Gen. or Alt Strap,and Chrome stock Oil Filler and Cap.
That is a 70's (1679 Old School Motor) most of these motors ran mid to high 13's depending on the head work and Compression
Picture Below Has Tall Manifolds and A Polished 009 Dist But You Get the Idea.  Dont Need All That Aftermarket Crap On Your Motor Just Clean Simple And Tastefully Detailed....

Shubee, as far as SOME of those characteristics go...watch my engine for next season  ;D ;)

I will Be  ;)

Hey guys I have been haveing a few more thoughts about "1700cc" motors - I want to get as much RPM as posible  ;) :)

I have seen a couple of cool ideas used on "Blueprinted" porsche engine in the past so I thought I'd see what you guys  :)

1 - So called "Knife-edging" of the crank lobe for a more aerodynamic effiency  ???

and

2 - Smoothing of the inside of the crank case for both better air AND oil flow  ???

I will admit that both of thes things are normally done to VERY VERY HIGH SPEC motors but I want to get the most I can from this little "Mouse motor" My aim is to run 13's  :o ;) :)

So let me know what you think guys  :)

DPR offers knife edge for their cranks. I think Scat may too. I am not really sure the gains would be worth it.

--louis

I`m not saying it wont help with knifeedge crank, but I would rather put my time into the heads if your goal is high rpm.
I`m think you can make descent powernumbers even with the stock crank and rods.Take a look at the pictures of the heads that Ugly Duckling is working on at the moment(in another tread here on the forum)I think thats the way to go if you want to make big numbers in a small displacment(maybe to radical ??)
Anyway, this looks like a cool project, looking forward to following the progress.

Regards
Folke Vogn

of course the main RPM will be produced best good heads I just want to really "Blueprint" this little engine and give it every advantage I can ;) :)

I remember seeing a thread on here about internal case smoothing - does anyone remember this thread ???

yup, i do.
it was a typical ratto thread suggesting trimming off any sharp edging and giving it a good licking  :P

i forgot the term he used for it...

cool got a link to it dude  ??? :)

Get the crank ground to chevy/buick journals on the big ends and run 5.325 rods,less weight and will like rpms more,yep knife edge the crank to alow it to cut through the oil and air easier,polish the inside of the case to help oil return to the sump easier and therefore less drag on crank etc,narrow the cam/crank gears if you use straight cuts=less friction.Loads more little tricks but all very time consuming,I think a hidden nitrous system would be the best route :D

cheers richie,uk   

Or stop pissing about and get a big motor. :D

yeah yeah I've been waitin for someone to say that  ;) :) Thats just the easy way out dude - for me its all about proving a point  :)


Thanks for the tips dude - there are some really cool ideas there - just how narrow can you go with the cam/crank gear  ???

Till it breaks :D
 Depends on brand/quality,you need to have it mocked in the case to see,oh and with you planned combo and a fk87 you better have some good springs on it,it will want to rev to 9.5/10 not 7500,
cheers richie,uk

Cool I will look into that when I come to build it up - Also 9.5/10 REALLY  ??? Now that sound cool ;D - what springs do you recomend then  ??? :)

P.S sorry for all the question dude  :)

Or Lee save your money and get a big motor. ;D

I will be texting this to you every day from now on.

mmh, only thing i can find so far is this thread:
http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,1646.0.html (http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,1646.0.html)

but dude, where did the w110 go?

I've been chatting to KS "fastbrit" thats what  ;) :) we want to see this little engine into the 13's  ;D ;D ;D

but that's what greg aronson pulled off with a w130  ;)

yeah but I hope to go lower than 14.1 with this little baby  ;) :)

fair enough  ;)
i'm sure you will enlighten me next time i ring you (when i'm having a guinness)
 ;D

What's your next motor Diederick? You allready have some plans?

Monkiboy, I like your 1679 thoughs 8)

What a great topic, i'm also planning to build me a 1679cc motor for my '64 bug. I just love high revvin' mouse motors.

yeah its got LOTS of cool info in this thread - we'll have to arrange a race when our motors are finished  ;) :)

I would love to  8)

I'm not sure on the exhaust, I trendy fatboy exhaust or dual quiets for that old skool feel.

cool jesse, we should exchange some ideas at KWF in january.
sander, my plans have not changed from the last time i posted them. and i'm still waiting to hear from abc tuning about my case...
for the rest i'm merely collecting parts  ;)

Maybe i'll join the 1679cc motor war too.
Will go back to my roots then, ;D

Hey guys may i join to at KWF??  8)

no probs, we'll be there on saturday. hopefully having a 3 hour coffee break like last year  ;D

stanford, are you going to build another 1679cc again?
or better still rebuild the one you once had?

With all this talk about high reving mouse motors, I feel the urge to have a go. If I stick with a 69 crank and 85.5 cyls, and some big (enugh) carbs, and get a good head job on some 42x32 044, and by good I'm thinking about something around 1500$. And by dooing all the homework, tuned exhaust for the combo, adjusted intake lenghts and such. The idea is to use the money where everyone say it counts and see where it takes me. And If I at the same time could give a nod to the early boys in style thought... what could be better? any thoughts?

Day one of texting ;D

Yeah yeah I got it - next you'll be telling me to put a hair dryer on it  ::) :)

You have a text and yes it say put a hair dryer on it. :D

88x69 ;D This one Ive had some thought on, and of course Ive already started collecting parts for it (even if there is no car to put it in yet)

110 cam, 1.25 rockers
8.5:1
40x35.5 ported heads
IDA's on Deano manifolds
Vintage Berg sump, linkage, and power pulley
010 distributor (211 part number)
Deano valve covers
36hp shroud, Porsche 356/912 cooler
1 1/2" merge, single QP
4.37 r+p, 3.78, 2.21, 1.43, 1.04, 26" tires.

My '67 did a 14.8 with a similar 1600... I think I could get a high 13 out of this combo.

This is a really good idè JHU, I think your on the right track here. Would be funny to see if the stock crank and rods can take the abuse and rather use more money on the heads, manifolds and carbs.
What about crankcase ventilation, there could be some extra power there aswell. every little thing helps ;-) and I think you should keep it as streeable as possible

You think it can be done with stock parts? I´ve heard that the rods can be used... but I´m not to sure about the original bolts...
I´m looking to get what I can out of this one, so it got to have CR and revs... but streetable.... I sure hope so!   

I`m dont think they would handle it if you abuse it as a daily driver, (but weekend abuse would probably work just fine  ;D) I think your right about the rodbolts, I`m not an expert but there most be some of the old "guru`s" here on the Lounge that had to struggle with this back in the days and probably can give you a good answer..
would be funny to see the price tag on this project at the end.

yeah I've been think about costs and mine will probably end up costing ALMOST as much as a "BIG" motor but as I have said before its all about proving a point with me  ;) :)

As far as bolts go I have been told by One of the Old Guru's to use "arpm bolts" expensive but Well Worth it  :)

I have also been thinking about Valve size - I have been leaing more toward 42x37 because it would mean less port work - of course they will be in stock welded heads  ;) :)

Of course you could go with 40x35.5 or 40x37.5

Any thoughts guys ??? :)

Diederick i'll join you guys then at the coffee break if its ok.

Gonna build another one D,the old one i sold to an old friend.
 8)

i want one too. just took apart the 1641 and now i allready want it back.

i do have the the crank, W110, exhaust, and the heads, but they need a lot of reworking as it blew one of the plugs. and it seems they were leaking CR. not sure if it were the cylinders (87mm non machined) or the heads itself. i also have the 1.25 rockers. all i need is a case and money to finish it... plus cooler. what do you guys run for cooler? stock and an external oilfilter? and maybe the 40 dells i want to sell, can make some good use.
anybody wants to share a project?  ;D

Interesting! You`re saying that you wish to build a high reving mouse engine on a tight budget and with a original crank and rods? With enough punch to impress the boys in the hood? Are we talking race engine, no cooling, extreme CR?

How much power is possible in small engine like the one you`re thinking about and still have a driveable package? I have heard someone mention that the limit for a streetable 1600ccm engine would be around 125hp. I say if you reach 125hp with belt on and muffler you have a done a VERY good job. Agree?

Best rgs
Kalle

I always like a good chat, but I thought you wanted to build a 1915? I'm just looking around for a 1300 or 1600. But i'm currently busy with school etc. So I think it will be december/januari before I start with searching.

Well, first ting first, it has to have full cooling and run on normal pump fuel, but the CR will still be up there, no reason to give away horsepower.
The aim is to use money were it counts and leave well enough alone. Was the plan, but its still early days and nothing is carved in stone, got to have time to build it to.

About output, how much flow/velocity can I get out of a pair of welded normal heads? Jeff D, Udo or someone, for about 1500$ when I supply heads? And how much flow can this small capacity "support" or is this line of thinking wrong?

SOB what do you think about this, didn't you build something like this a few years ago? ...was Vera the name?

I think a this is worth a own thread! How much power it is possible to get from a 1600ccm street engine built on a budget...

My old 1600 dynoed at 93hp, belt on. It was a daily driver and I would consider that to be at the ragged edge as far as streetability is concerned. With what I know now, Id like to build a clone of that engine to try and achieve 100hp, with more low end torque as well.

But lets get back on topic guys... 1600's arent cal look ;)

About the 1679cc, is their really a big difference between the machine-ins and the slip-ins?

Cylinders are thicker with the machine-ins.

--louis

I already know that :P  :-* But what I mean, are the slip ins running hotter or something? This will be my first motor so I don't know much about it yet.

The thinner cylinders may (will?) distort quicker and allow for ring sealing failure. Then you get blow by and higher oil consumption. Go with machine in unless you are building a drag motor that will get torn down often.

--louis

Question for you; what will it take to make a 1600ccm cal look? The right parts and plenty of power? I want to know this and I think it is really interesting if JHU or someone else would build a potent, small engine. Thing is, I`m not sure if it worth it - power wise. How much power should a budget 1600ccm engine make before it get interesting? Everyone is now building 2332`s ++ and the bigger, the better seems to be "the thing" right now.

I for one would have loved to have a mouse engine if it is possible to get some real power out of it without spending a fortune.

Best rgs
BB

The right heads, the right carbs, the right cam I think you could get 100 - 110. If you are willing to run race gas I would think much higher. Depends on how streetable you want it to be.

--louis

Anyone remember this (http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,867.msg9938.html#msg9938) topic?
The car has a 1679cc John Mayer engine.

Specs:

1679cc Engine Specification

AS41 New crankcase
88mm Thick Wall Mahle Pistons and Cylinders
69mm counterweighted crankshaft
200mm, 12lb, 8 doweled flywheel
Engle FK8 camshaft
JMR 044 cylinder heads (40mmx35.5mm), polished and ported
Autocraft 1.4:1 rockers
Berg chromoloy pushrods
Dual 48 IDA carbs on tall manifolds
Berg 26 mm oil pump
Scat deep sump
Berg 440e Equaliser crank pulley
Kennedy 1700lb pressure plate
15/8” Phoenix merged header
2 ¼” muffler (A1)
HP1 Fram external oil filter
009 Distributor

130 bhp@6,000 rpm recorded on the JMR dyno May 1997


Thats pretty awesome :)

The right heads, the right carbs, the right cam I think you could get 100 - 110. If you are willing to run race gas I would think much higher. Depends on how streetable you want it to be.
--louis

Thank you for your answer Louis. If 100 - 110 is max I would not be satisfied and I do think it is possible to take out more.

130 bhp@6,000 rpm recorded on the JMR dyno May 1997

Yes, pretty awesome..... BUT is this the limit on a street engine/pump gas?

What about the "magic" number of 100hp per liter? Is 160hp possible when building a engine like the one described by JHU? Street engine - built on a tight budget - and all the homework done?

With all this talk about high reving mouse motors, I feel the urge to have a go. If I stick with a 69 crank and 85.5 cyls, and some big (enugh) carbs, and get a good head job on some 42x32 044, and by good I'm thinking about something around 1500$. And by dooing all the homework, tuned exhaust for the combo, adjusted intake lenghts and such. The idea is to use the money where everyone say it counts and see where it takes me. And If I at the same time could give a nod to the early boys in style thought... what could be better? any thoughts?

yup, very much so.
it's in this ultra cool 67

(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/164/338805889_57d4fd9abb_o.jpg)
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/135/338805892_56e507457d_o.jpg)

but i'm guessing monkiboy wants to go even further than just that  :P

Hi Lee,

Did I read somewhere you want to run an FK87 in a 1700? In my opinion, that's not a good idea, unless this engine is going to a drag rail. If you're thinking of running the 1700 on the street, in a sedan, the FK87 is much too aggressive of a cam. It's a wild cam for a 2200cc + engine, so imagine how it would run in a little 1700. Here's a story to help describe what it will be like. A guy I know put together a 1914 for some race series, drag racing. His car was somewhat lightened 1965 Bug, close ratio 4.37:1 box, no interior, T bars. 1914 was 11.0:1, 42 x 37 welded big egg-shapped intake ports,35cc chambers, Engle FK87, 1.4's, 48IDAs with 40mm vents, 1-3/4" header with big Borla muffler. I set carbs up with 170 main, F7, 205 air, 65 idles. MSD distributor and 6AL box, 32 advance. Tuned car and took around block in his neighborhood. Absolutely undriveable under 4500rpm...I mean nothing there except a lot of intake garbling and burping, and then once you crested 5000rpm, it kind of smoothed out, and then would zing to 8000+. So from 5500 to 7500 or so it was fast. 8000rpm was going to break something. So in this 1900+cc engine it had less than a 2000 rpm power band and NOTHING under 4500. A well tuned 1776 with Kadrons would have beat me around the block. If you need to imagine what it would be like, and want to experience it... pull a plug wire off one plug on your Buggy, and go drive around and then imagine that until 5000rpm, then put the plug wire back on....BANG. In a 1700 the FK87 will probably come on at 6200-6500 and go until rods, springs, pushrods, rings all fail.

For street sedan, a bad tempered 1679 that I would build would consist of:

88 x 69
9.5:1
Rimco super rods
Engle 125 or Engle K8
40 x 35.5 small port heads (see pic of those DDS heads elsewhere)
1-1/2" merged
12lb flywheel
heavy pulley (help with little motor "keep going" on freeway and up hills)
44mm + carbs (48IDAs with 36mm chokes would be very cammy)
whatever distributor

If the motor is tuned to be happy and has good springs in it, it should go good from 3000-7000, with a good shove at about 4200-4500.

Question for you; what will it take to make a 1600ccm cal look?
[/quote]

a set of 94's and an 82mm crank.  ;D

a set of 94's and an 82mm crank.  ;D
[/quote]

LOL - why am I not suprised? A angry, little screamer behind there would do it for me.

(http://www.cs.fsu.edu/~lbrooks/67vw/thrashdone4.jpg)

How about this except with a set of IDAs w/ 32 vents. (And dual port heads.) Throw a 120 or 125 in it and go to town.  ;D

--louis

Small engines don't nesicerely have to be primadonas, Jim.
Listen to this little 69x94 with a nice FK87 with carbs....
Sounds better than most two point threes I have ever heard...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyvqo8HHZxs

This is what I want.. how about you Lee??!!

Is that realy a 1914?? Sounds realy good!
And 155Kw is not bad :o

that is realy a 1914ccm and its not 155kW it 175kW!!!!

Please forget the KW of this engine, it's beside the point I'm trying to make.
JPM, the guy in the car told me I dont even need to go this wild on the cam for a hot "mouse"...

So you get more of both according to him, more middle and more top...

Not bad!

The engine has 155Kw on the backwheels. 175Kw at the crank ;)

my bad....thought you had crooked eyes ;)

BTW the engine didn`t performe at its full potential due to the throttle wire beeing stretched and not giving the carbs full throttle. It has dynoed 182kW at the flywheel, before and after this video was made.
And it REALLY sounds crisp all the way!!very cool engine!!

Don't worry I get your point dude and YES I want one that sounds like that  :)

Also thanks for the info Jim all good points are taken on board don't worry  ;) :)

BUT like I have said my main aim is to run 13's and I am sure that I can get it "Fairly" streetable plus I sort of like the idea of it being a bit of an animal to drive  ;) :)

I like your style Lee... ;D,

I'm thinking K8 is what you need dude...  remember you need cylinder pressure.

Lighten the car as much as you can and gear it to rev and you'll see 13's. My friend went mid 14's in 1900lb+ car on radials and 8.0:1 1700 with 40IDFs

Another friend went 13.01 in lightened 66 steel sedan, close gears, 4.37:1, MH slicks, KYB shocks, 1776, W125 Engle, 11.5:1, 1.25 rockers, 48IDAs, 1-5/8", MSD ign VP C12, stinger

Cylinder pressure - how about 10:1 ??? :)

And LOTS and LOTS and LOTS of "Blueprinting" I will see 13's I PROMISE YOU  ;) :)

Also it looks like I really started something here with this thread with 87 replies and over 1200 views  ;) :) Maybe we should start a race series - 1679 WARS  ;D ;D ;D

 

no wars on the Lounge monki....we're all buddies

yeah I know dude don't worry  ;) :) It was just a take on that classic book "Gasser Wars"  :)

But it would be nice to run against a few other 1679's - come on guys I say more mouse motors  ;D

I would go more conservative on the cam... 120x1.25, 9:1, 40x35.5, IDA's, yadda yadda yadda. I think even that will be a bear to drive on the street given the 294 duration and small CC's. Just my opinion, but dont try and build a "world beater". You will spend more time working on the car rather than driving it, and chances are you wont beat the world, either ;) And I bet you anything that the combo I listed above will still get you 13's.

Maybe Im just getting old ::)

How much compression??

that's the one unknown fact zach.
and lee buddy, to fully judge that properly i'm guessing you need one race on the strip for that and one to the supermarket in chimay to get some duvels  ;) ;D

Well JMR is on here now, I bet he knows ;)
Im gonna say its 10+:1

Good luck with it and I'm sure you can get it to 13's with the right investment in terms of time and money but my bet is it will be pretty "tragic" on the street. I say tragic as that was how a properly quick street 1776 was described to me (with a grin) by its owner. The balance between mileage on the street and times on the strip can be tricky depending on what you're looking for even with a considerably bigger motor.

 :)

Andy (who now owns the car) has run it several times at both York and the Pod with times in the low 15's. On the way to Euro Bug In it cruised happily at 60mph with the rest of us. It is a lairy little engine and great fun by the looks of it, but personally I would be happier with a larger CC motor as John pointed out on the other thread (gearbox).

Very good points very well put  :) The only "Tragic" thing I can think of about thses egines  is that tragic feeling felt by people when you beat them  ;) :)

And I am sure its always a balance between streetabilty and strip times no mater what the cc - but like I say its all about proving a point, I just want to run 13's and beat some Rice Rockets round the local ring road  ;D ;D ;D

yes prove your point!!! like i said earlier, i have some parts to make an engine, but not enough and i am builing the 2l engine, and afterwards i will get back to the 84x94 engine... if that ever happens. but if someone wants parts to buld the engine maybe we can work something out and have that mouse motor battle at EBI2...

I ran the w120 and w130 in my 1679cc engine with no problems at all.
Pulled great from low to high rpms 8)

Am looking forward to join this mouse motor war,still buddy's with everyone Jim ;D

Hey give me a chance guys - I don't think I'll be ready for EBI2 Maybe EBI3 well thats my plan anyhow and I will debut it at volksworld 2009 - God I better start saving ;) :)

Well I've talked a lot with Bewitched, and I hope to get my 1679 ready for DDD6. But I'm a student so saving money is hard. I'm looking forward to beat the other 1679 engines  8) ;D :-*

If you need help Jesse you know where to find me ok 8)

Thanks Stanford, I always could use some help. Now I'm thinking about the exhaust. What kind of exhaust has a good performance and doesn't cost to much :P

Open stinger,lol ;D

Nah turbo muff or the A1 types.
Streetsport from Ahrdennedorp(dont know if you write it like this)
or check some on CSP

If you have a Old Skool engine, you need a Old Skool mufler  ;)
Something like an old Glass Pack, or a single or dual quiet pack.

I think most of you are very conservative regarding a 69 x 85.5 engine.
In the Nordic Beetle cup racing they are putting out 150-160 hp on a 1600 with unwelded heads, pump gas, max carb diameter 45 mm and a 6600 rpm rev limiter.
These engines are made to run on track racing, not quarter mile and they normally don't need much service between the races.
JHU: I bet you a beer that it will make more than 150 hp!

Now you let the cat out of the bag   :)

I would make a custom header, the off-the-shelf exhausts has too long primary tubes in most cases. The weird thing is that all exhaust manufacturers for VW's tell the diameter, but never the lentgh and the length is a very good tuning tool!

What cat?  ;)

WOW I really have started something here with 108 replies and over 1600 views  :o ;) :)

I am really glad that all you guys feel the same as me about these littlle mouse motors  ;) we know they can do it  ;D

I just feel that WAY too much money is POURED into these huge stroker motor for dare I say it  "Fashion" and more often than not they run about the same times that I am hoping to run.

by the way this is just my 2 cents ;) :)

I can't wait to see some of your "1700's" and race you of course  ;) :)

As I have said I hope to be ready for EBI3

god I better start saving  :(

Got a point there Sander ;D

But maybe old skool engine with new tech stuff of today,lol ;D

Its not all about the ET Monki!!! Those big motors are much more driveable, and they last longer than the little motor!! ;)

Yes, monkiboy, your thread sure has got everyone paying attention.  ;D In the "small powerhouses and old school" thread Mr. Jim Ratto wrote that someone needs to build a flashbulb motor and after I read that I made a call to a friend who had a SP 1641 that I traded. He does not have it any more.
So, I hopped on a local classified website and found a few very cheap deals that would make great timebomb motors.

Here is my idea: Pull a worthy candidate apart, address any problems, replace bearings etc., new seals everywhere, high compression, nice cam, some blueprinting, and backyard head porting. I will try to use mostly nice condition, used parts. This is awesome fun and great practice in assembling a motor.

I did not buy anything yet, but I plan on building a fast motor with very little money. Then drive it until it blows up.

You have really startet something here monkey :D  The "mouse motor era" on the lounge.. It has really brought some very very interesting stuff out on the table...
I am really looking forward to seeing that cat Beetlebug :-)

rabid mice invade the Lounge...

 ;D

Damn Jim,call the exterminator ;D

Ahh stop being so mean  :(

BUT if you remember the old cartoons Jerry mouse ALWAYS beat Tom the cat :D :D :D

Yeps thats tru Monkiboy.

But i'll join and build me a mouse engine too ;D

A few years ago John Maher Racing built an 'old school' 1679 with IDAs and 010 distributor for Nigel Fleet. There's a pic of the motor on page 35 of JMR's tech book. The motor made 130 horsepower on a Stuska dyno. I am not sure of the cam combo etc.

It might be worth giving John a call to see what parts he used. Matt

It is in april 99 issue of Total VW.
69 counterweighted crank, 200mm 12lb 8 doweled flywheel
88mm mahle syls and pistons
044 heads 40x35,5. 1,4:1 autocraft rockers, Berg 3/8" chromoly pushrods, Scat light weight lifters, FK8 cam, 1,5qt Scat sump, 26mm Berg pump and HP1 filter.
Blue Bosch coil and 010 dizzy. 48 IDAs on Scat Trak manifolds and Berg linkage. 1 5/8" Pheonix header.
Does not say anything about the CR..

Is this car still around?

Yes, you are both talking about the car i posted 2 pages back.
And according to Tim C's post it is now owned by a guy named Andy

Don't think it is the same car. The one we talk about is a green 64.

I thought It was Anthracite Grey? But yes, definately a different car to the white '67.

Oops, of course it is anthracite grey. My bad..

Any progress or good old stories yet?

Found this vid on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXpt1EP9rzI

It says 123hp, and it sure sounds good!

While this topic is really about old skool and doing it yourself let's talk about the heads, how much can you do yourself as a newbie to tuning heads? Replacing the stock valves with bigger ones? What tools do you need to do this sort of stuff?

Hello.
I´ll admit I have not read the entire topic closely. But before building "this" 1600 super street engine, you have to make up your mind if you will stay with the stock crank rods and pistons, or if you will go up a notch to CW crank and forged pistons.

In my experience stock pistons &  rings DO NOT like to come above 6000 rpm., nor does the crank, if you want some decent life out of the engine. That is why my own 100 hp 1600cc type 1, out of basically stock parts,  is designed to peak at 54- 5500 rpm and is limited to 5800 rpm. (Fed with dual 36 Dells or IDF.)

lets make another thing clear. It is NOT nescessary to install larger valves for the first 100 - 110 hp.  In fact you often get better overall power with stock or very close to stock valves. My set up, above, runs 37 X 33 mm valves in stock seats, topped off with small fast ports, to make a super nice torque curve.

If you are ready to drop in a CW crank & forged pistons, the next 20 hp are easy to find. Then it begins to get a little complicated, because we still want it to pull decent at lower rpms. I´d say that Maher´s receipe above is about what can be done if the car has to be usable in daily average traffic.

Last thing. We focus a lot on HP. On street engines I focus a lot on ABP (Average power band) - Something I´ve learned from the V8 guys. The essense is what good is super power at 7 grand, if it falls on it´s nose below 3 000 rpm. IMHO a very good point. And I try to stay close to that rule.
T

Amen Torben ;D

This sunday i'm going to pick up an 1300AR engine (AS21 case) with dual port heads. I want to use it as a base for my first engine build. At CB the price of an 69mm and 74mm crank is the same. What are the dis- and advantages of going for the 74x88 combo instead of the 69x88mm engine?

Last fall I bought a old Gene Berg motor at Irwindale Drag Days. It was all apart and everything looked real nice. Its 88x69 counterwheight crank with nice ported std heads. A Berg sump and dcnf´s 42 Berg specials. The heads are semi -hemi cut so the compression rate is not that high. It has a Berg 110 cam dual springs and Porsche screws on the rockers. The original flywheel was to light for my taste so Im going with a standard weight flywheel 200mm but 6 volts. The case is a single relief 1500 case that I have linebored and tapped for fullflow. This will be my everyday get around car and I will keep you posted when I start it upp.

Getting back to the original post....I got a 1679 in my daily driver.
It's got about 75,000 miles on it. starting to smoke a little....but doesn't leak! anyway
the heads are mildly ported, berg/engle 110 single relief case, stock flywheel, 1 1/2 berg merged
header with heater boxes and a glass pack, 009, and 40idf's. It gets 26.5 and 30mpg depending on how I drive it.
I think I could get more out of it if I play with it more. but I like the power band.....able to cruise at 70-75 and still be have
throttle available to pass some one, enough pick up to get up go from a stop and I use it rain or shine,
and from 25 degrees to 110 degrees....260-275 miles everyday!!!   The one thing I should do when I refresh it is put a dog
house cooler on it. still have the old design shroud and cooler.
great combo!!!!

Any of these 1679s actually get built?

Okay ... reviving a very old thread (!) I'm on a 1679 right about now.

As41 (soon to be full-flowed)
69mm CB c'weighted crank
lightened flywheel
straight cuts
Scat H-beams
FK 42
Lube a lobe lifters
Thick walled 88s
Steve (Greg) Tims stage one heads 40x35 Ported with promo retainers & dual Hi Rev springs (approx 9:1 CR)
GBE 1.4:1 rockers
CroMo pushrods
GBE pump, sump, linkage etc
010 and blue coil (original tan base !)
KEP stage 3 clutch (Overkill, I hear you say ?!)
40 IDFS on tall manifolds
1 32/8 GBE header with custom single muffler

It was all balanced and all rods, pistons etc weight matched, so might stay together for a while !

I'm in the throes of swapping out the IDFs and manifolds for the correct carbs (IDAs) choked down to 32mm

should be a barrel of laughs - was ok with the 40s so hoping for more fun with the 48s.

Did any one else get one up and running ?

My first engine was a 1600 with original crank rods and pistons , original valves and made 115 HP rev. up to 7000 rpm in 1984 . we did 3 of them one is still alive . The original cranks are one of the strongest typ1 and 4

Udo