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Title: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: Jim Ratto on November 25, 2013, 21:44:01 pm A post for those that were in the thick of the 1970's VW hot rod scene. How popular was the 1900cc combination? With Mahle discontinuing the 88mm p/c set a few years back, I guess my chance of someday replicating what seems to be a forgotten combination is gone now.
I've read very little about cars which ran this bore x stroke. Anybody out there remember a few? My thinking is it would have gone something like this... 88KS pistons or in some fortunate cases, Biral slipper Empi 88's Welded Berg 78 or Okrasa 78 with Porsche 912 journals 912 rods heads welded up @ F.A.T. and set up for 40 x 35.5 valves, port job like Kirsten's 1700 heads or square intakes like Underdog, flycut 0.120 or more Engle 140 with stock VW rockers, solid shafts and 911 adjusters 48 Webers on short manifolds, bell cranks twisted outwards (fuel banjos on outside) Berg fan housing linkage, 37 chokes, 155 mains, 130 airs in F2's, 70 idles Bosch 010 with blue coil 5-3/4" crank pulley from Santana or Berg 4-Tuned competition header with single muffler How far off am I? And how did these run Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: Zach Gomulka on November 25, 2013, 22:39:23 pm And how did these run Build it and let us know ;) I bet it was a handful, especially on 165's. I want to say the Aronson/Holmes car ran a similar combo for a while and it went high 12's??? Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: Jim Ratto on November 25, 2013, 22:44:21 pm And how did these run Build it and let us know ;) I bet it was a handful, especially on 165's. I want to say the Aronson/Holmes car ran a similar combo for a while and it went high 12's??? Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: johnl on November 25, 2013, 23:00:26 pm Jim, as I've stated before I ran 88x78.4 in the Butternut car. As I recall the pistons were KS and it was an Okrasa crank with VW rods. EMPI tall manifolds with 48 Webers. I can't remember the Engle cam but it was with EMPI rockers along with chrome molly pushrods and really noisy.
Ron Fleming did the heads when they were still just "F&A" and I don't remember valve size but what I do remember is the genuine VW heads and case were not a bunch of $$. I think the case which was German came in around $95.00. The motor in that configuration made around 160HP on the F&A dyno which was respectable back then. With close ratio 3rd and 4th gears along with S&S comp merge collector headers the car ran mid to upper 13s. I did run 165 Pirelli tires on the back with 135s up front. It would smoke the tires rather well when you put your foot in it. Also, I remember letting a lot of air out for runs at OCIR. Later with that motor I changed over to Berg 42 DCNF carb on his manifolds, put heater boxes back on with an S&S conventional header and got rid of the gears. It really became a pleasure to drive then with good mileage and I could go anywhere and always be warm. Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: deano on November 25, 2013, 23:07:53 pm John, I remember when Ron was building your new "killer" engine over on E. Howell Street. I was primering the Under Dog at the time, out back, for its new owner... (He wanted purple primer, Greg said no f-'n way!
Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: johnl on November 25, 2013, 23:46:52 pm John, I remember when Ron was building your new "killer" engine over on E. Howell Street. I was primering the Under Dog at the time, out back, for its new owner... (He wanted purple primer, Greg said no f-'n way! Dean, Ron didn't build the engine but I did. He did only the head work. Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: Jim Ratto on November 26, 2013, 00:02:12 am Jim, as I've stated before I ran 88x78.4 in the Butternut car. As I recall the pistons were KS and it was an Okrasa crank with VW rods. EMPI tall manifolds with 48 Webers. I can't remember the Engle cam but it was with EMPI rockers along with chrome molly pushrods and really noisy. Thanks for the reply John, yep I knew you ran this combination in the Butternut, but didn't know the details. This happens to be one of those combinations from the past I always wondered about and knew little about. Seems like with the right ingredients, it made for a real street bruiser. I'd love to gather the stuff up to replicate one. Ron Fleming did the heads when they were still just "F&A" and I don't remember valve size but what I do remember is the genuine VW heads and case were not a bunch of $$. I think the case which was German came in around $95.00. The motor in that configuration made around 160HP on the F&A dyno which was respectable back then. With close ratio 3rd and 4th gears along with S&S comp merge collector headers the car ran mid to upper 13s. I did run 165 Pirelli tires on the back with 135s up front. It would smoke the tires rather well when you put your foot in it. Also, I remember letting a lot of air out for runs at OCIR. Later with that motor I changed over to Berg 42 DCNF carb on his manifolds, put heater boxes back on with an S&S conventional header and got rid of the gears. It really became a pleasure to drive then with good mileage and I could go anywhere and always be warm. Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: Speed-Randy on November 26, 2013, 02:31:18 am Jim, AA makes 88 pistons, give it a whirl!
Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: Speed-Randy on November 26, 2013, 02:31:32 am Jim, AA makes 88 pistons, give it a whirl!
Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: 70slooker on November 26, 2013, 02:48:19 am Wow great topic! This is the engine I'm collecting parts for! And I'm on the look out for one more "virgin" 311 casted head, after a few emails back and forth with Greg he would like to see them the best I can get! I'll be using
Ks 88s An old welded 78 (if it checks out okay) 912 rods I think at first a 130 cam but will most likely bring it down to a 110 once I've had my fun Short intakes Idas 010 Packard 440s ( just cause sarge said so) T3 fuel pump Mag berg sump (someone please help me find one!!) Whatever fat wants to do to the heads to spec out to " hot street" circa 1970ish Close gears of course DDS solid mounts and engine hanger Once I collect the last few things, I'll keep you all posted! Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: Zach Gomulka on November 26, 2013, 03:02:56 am Jim, AA makes 88 pistons, give it a whirl! They are for stock stroke :( Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: Martin S. on November 26, 2013, 04:02:27 am Jim, AA makes 88 pistons, give it a whirl! They are for stock stroke :( You could order some custom pistons to fit those 88 barrels. ;) Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: Fritter on November 26, 2013, 07:20:32 am Jim, I have shorty Deano manifolds on my 2332, with the Deano push pull linkage. Everything looks much less cluttered than the typical tall manifold, Berg linkage motor. The Deano linkage works pretty good once you mess around with it for a while. Easier to adjust mixture and idle when things are on the "inside".
The only thing is, you CANNOT get the plugs out without removing the carbs and manifolds. Pretty tight fit. I tried to go retro and run a Deano 35mm gear oil pump, but that pumps WAY too much oil, I went to a 26mm pump instead now. Not sure how they got those huge Deano oil pumps to work back in the day. I also am running an original 40hp shroud with the indentation. I have one of those aluminum aftermarket 356 oil coolers in the shroud, no doghouse! I also run a 40hp breather with the draft tube. I ran a rubber hose off the breather nipple down through the rear engine tin seal area, ala early 70s. And I also connected the valvecovers with a .5 rubber tube, with a notch cut at the high point. Here's a link to when I first installed the engine last summer, some things have been tweaked but it's basically the same. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWoqeZ_-mRs Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: Jeff68 on November 26, 2013, 14:29:34 pm I think the Berg's may have some of the "old" style 88 piston and cyl kits....
Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: Jim Ratto on November 27, 2013, 01:12:49 am Jim, I have shorty Deano manifolds on my 2332, with the Deano push pull linkage. Everything looks much less cluttered than the typical tall manifold, Berg linkage motor. The Deano linkage works pretty good once you mess around with it for a while. Easier to adjust mixture and idle when things are on the "inside". Nice motor Mike! The only thing is, you CANNOT get the plugs out without removing the carbs and manifolds. Pretty tight fit. I tried to go retro and run a Deano 35mm gear oil pump, but that pumps WAY too much oil, I went to a 26mm pump instead now. Not sure how they got those huge Deano oil pumps to work back in the day. I also am running an original 40hp shroud with the indentation. I have one of those aluminum aftermarket 356 oil coolers in the shroud, no doghouse! I also run a 40hp breather with the draft tube. I ran a rubber hose off the breather nipple down through the rear engine tin seal area, ala early 70s. And I also connected the valvecovers with a .5 rubber tube, with a notch cut at the high point. Here's a link to when I first installed the engine last summer, some things have been tweaked but it's basically the same. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWoqeZ_-mRs Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: Cheesepanzer on November 28, 2013, 02:41:07 am I remember a number of A/MC drag cars ran 78x88 combos, and I always wanted to try to build a similar combo myself. But 90.5's kept calling my name. 8) One of my all time favorite drag cars of the day was "Grey Matter" and he ran a 78 berg crank, jet rods and Empi 88's. The car ran 11.90's I believe.
I also remember the Berg family bus (parts chaser) ran a 78x88 with a W120 cam, small heads and 42 DCNF's. Sounded good. One of the sedans out front used to have a similar combo but a 74x88 1800cc engine. I guess the point I wanted to make here is that the 74x88 combo certainly ran A pistons, and I suspect the bus engine ran A's as well as Gene preferred the thicker dome. Spacers would get those A's working fine with a 78 stroke. Plus, aren't the 88's sold by AA thick wall? I say built it! It would be very cool, especially if you put a mag on it. ;D Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: Jim Ratto on November 28, 2013, 20:28:34 pm I remember a number of A/MC drag cars ran 78x88 combos, and I always wanted to try to build a similar combo myself. But 90.5's kept calling my name. 8) One of my all time favorite drag cars of the day was "Grey Matter" and he ran a 78 berg crank, jet rods and Empi 88's. The car ran 11.90's I believe. My friend Bryan built an 88 x 74 for his sedan in the late 1990's and ran "A" 88mm Mahles, heads by Heads Up Performance, 48IDAs, Web 86BI also remember the Berg family bus (parts chaser) ran a 78x88 with a W120 cam, small heads and 42 DCNF's. Sounded good. One of the sedans out front used to have a similar combo but a 74x88 1800cc engine. I guess the point I wanted to make here is that the 74x88 combo certainly ran A pistons, and I suspect the bus engine ran A's as well as Gene preferred the thicker dome. Spacers would get those A's working fine with a 78 stroke. Plus, aren't the 88's sold by AA thick wall? I say built it! It would be very cool, especially if you put a mag on it. ;D Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: WPS on November 29, 2013, 11:57:52 am I ran a 76 Revmaster crank with 5.2" Pauter ali rods with 88mm Empi Mahles 'A's with thick wall Mahle barrels (same as 90.5 OD) 1850cc street motor on 'pump gas'.
11:1 with fk89 and 42x37.5 Jeff Denham heads....oh and a Vertex Mag....1 5/8" header with Thunderbird twin quietpack mufflers......sounded the nuts!! All steel 1952 daily used street car...ran 12.3s on a berg 5 spd...big wheelstands too, even on the street with those M&H 235/60s Compared to the 1776 I had in the car previous, which ran 12.8s, it was sooo much nicer to drive on the street as you'd expect much more torque with less shifting going on to keep the 1776 buzzin'. Drove it 500 mile round trip to the first European Bug In, ran hard all weekend and drove home with big smiles.....never forget that journey with my good friend Andy M as co pilot...once we hit Dover on the way home it was 5th gear flat out all the way on the motorways...got out shakin' and laughing....that's about as much fun as you can have with ya clothes on!! ;D Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: Lee.C on November 29, 2013, 19:54:23 pm I ran a 76 Revmaster crank with 5.2" Pauter ali rods with 88mm Empi Mahles 'A's with thick wall Mahle barrels (same as 90.5 OD) 1850cc street motor on 'pump gas'. 11:1 with fk89 and 42x37.5 Jeff Denham heads....oh and a Vertex Mag....1 5/8" header with Thunderbird twin quietpack mufflers......sounded the nuts!! All steel 1952 daily used street car...ran 12.3s on a berg 5 spd...big wheelstands too, even on the street with those M&H 235/60s Compared to the 1776 I had in the car previous, which ran 12.8s, it was sooo much nicer to drive on the street as you'd expect much more torque with less shifting going on to keep the 1776 buzzin'. Drove it 500 mile round trip to the first European Bug In, ran hard all weekend and drove home with big smiles.....never forget that journey with my good friend Andy M as co pilot...once we hit Dover on the way home it was 5th gear flat out all the way on the motorways...got out shakin' and laughing....that's about as much fun as you can have with ya clothes on!! ;D Cool motor :) Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: ianmac on November 29, 2013, 19:59:18 pm I ran a 76 Revmaster crank with 5.2" Pauter ali rods with 88mm Empi Mahles 'A's with thick wall Mahle barrels (same as 90.5 OD) 1850cc street motor on 'pump gas'. 11:1 with fk89 and 42x37.5 Jeff Denham heads....oh and a Vertex Mag....1 5/8" header with Thunderbird twin quietpack mufflers......sounded the nuts!! All steel 1952 daily used street car...ran 12.3s on a berg 5 spd...big wheelstands too, even on the street with those M&H 235/60s Compared to the 1776 I had in the car previous, which ran 12.8s, it was sooo much nicer to drive on the street as you'd expect much more torque with less shifting going on to keep the 1776 buzzin'. Drove it 500 mile round trip to the first European Bug In, ran hard all weekend and drove home with big smiles.....never forget that journey with my good friend Andy M as co pilot...once we hit Dover on the way home it was 5th gear flat out all the way on the motorways...got out shakin' and laughing....that's about as much fun as you can have with ya clothes on!! ;D Cool motor :) And super cool car ;) I miss seeing that thing run Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: leec on December 01, 2013, 23:50:38 pm Hi Ian,
What was the benefit to using such short rods, was it purely just to use 'A' pistons with a stroker crank? I miss that car too, a big inspiration for my oval. Lee Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: Lee.C on December 02, 2013, 00:25:26 am BIG inspiration for me too ;) :)
Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: DaveN on December 02, 2013, 12:47:00 pm BIG inspiration for me too ;) :) me too, i went to Ace cafe in the car once , i had to buy a earlier faster car after that ride. I also remember seeing Ian stood by the side of the road being told off by the police after testing his 1850cc motor at the traffic lights in woking, it took PC plod awhile to catch him up! Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: Lee.C on December 02, 2013, 12:49:08 pm I'm "Road-Testing" officer ;)
Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: WPS on December 02, 2013, 16:15:12 pm Hi Ian, What was the benefit to using such short rods, was it purely just to use 'A' pistons with a stroker crank? I miss that car too, a big inspiration for my oval. Lee Hi Lee Using the 5.2 rods actually brings the piston skirt closer to the crank counterweight (and it was close) so it would've been easier to use a 5.4 or longer to make an 'A' work but I like short rods ::) It basically increases low down torque due to increasing piston speed and 'cylinder filling'.....a more powerful suck...which is always good! ;) It can be hard on cylinders/rings but I never had any trouble as the crank to rod ratio was not that extreme 1.73...stock is 1.98....an 82 with 5.4 is 1.67 which is getting harsh but still fine IMO. My next motor for the Fiat has a 65mm crank with 4.8 rods which are tiny but the ratio is 1.87 so that's what's important. Short rods also have the added bonus of making the motor narrower which is great for expansion control and pushrod length not to mention getting it in the engine bay! I eventually rebuilt the motor with steel 5.4 rods and replaced the Ti valves with SS Manleys...it still ran 12.3s and felt much the same, slightly less revvy but I'd also done some other changes so it's hard to tell with multiple variables......it's good to experiment tho'......combinations these days are, dare I say, abit boring.....82x94 or 84x94 with 5.5rods cnc comps etc etc but I guess it's all about the $$ and the lack of restricted cc classes in racing. 'Small' motors also sound better/rev quicker which has always been a big part of it for me...thankfully there are like minded 'idiots' out there like Pete Shattock and Johannes to keep me/us entertained. :D I miss the '52 aswell.....thankfully plod often just enjoyed looking over the car......amazingly I kept a clean license whilst driving it! "Just slow down 'sonny' and get a front number plate!!"......... the current owner Steve is just keeping it warm and dry for me..... ;) one day....... Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: Lee.C on December 02, 2013, 17:35:54 pm I'm so glad your building my motor ;D
Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: Martin S. on December 04, 2013, 03:36:43 am Interesting reading about the short rods. When my 84x94 motor was being planned out, Steve said to get the longest rods I could so I got 5.7". Ratio is around 1.76 with these. As you can see the chassis dyno makes it clear this motor is torquey. It would be cool to try the short rods with the same big engine. Building a wide motor for the street with fully sealed tin and thermostat was a ton of work!
Here's a pic showing the need for adding the extra strip of tin from a donor set of upper cyl tin and the 11mm cromo cylinder spacers with custom fins machined in them :) The shroud also had to be widened to fit nicely to the uppers. (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v415/mschilling/IMG_8704.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mschilling/media/IMG_8704.jpg.html) Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: Tourist on December 15, 2013, 18:15:14 pm Wow great topic! This is the engine I'm collecting parts for! And I'm on the look out for one more "virgin" 311 casted head, after a few emails back and forth with Greg he would like to see them the best I can get! I'll be using Ks 88s An old welded 78 (if it checks out okay) 912 rods I think at first a 130 cam but will most likely bring it down to a 110 once I've had my fun Short intakes Idas 010 Packard 440s ( just cause sarge said so) T3 fuel pump Mag berg sump (someone please help me find one!!) Whatever fat wants to do to the heads to spec out to " hot street" circa 1970ish Close gears of course DDS solid mounts and engine hanger Once I collect the last few things, I'll keep you all posted! Good afternoon :) Sorry to ask what is probably a very stupid question :-[ , but is the T3 fuel pump you will be running different from a regular T1 version- if so, in what way? 8) Martin. Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: 70slooker on December 15, 2013, 19:27:38 pm Hey no sweat in asking, I doubt there is much different, I chose it only for the fact a number of old cal look cars had them, and I always liked the egg cup plastic covers, keeps thing clean!
I assume maybe cause the type 3s ran duels from the factory, the thought was it would be able to keep the pigs filled with fuel. Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: Zach Gomulka on December 15, 2013, 19:36:21 pm The inlet and outlet both point towards the front of the car.
Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: Tourist on December 15, 2013, 22:52:34 pm Good evening 70slooker and Zach :) ,
Thankyou for the info. ;D 8) Martin. Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: bug on December 26, 2013, 20:42:39 pm Is it also possible to build an engine with combi 94 x 78?
Title: Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's Post by: Donny B. on December 26, 2013, 20:50:23 pm Quote Re: 88 x 78 street cars of the 1970's « Reply #31 on: Today at 20:42:39 » Reply with quote Is it also possible to build an engine with combi 94 x 78? I have exactly that combo in my '66 right now. The 2165 works very well. |