The Cal-look Lounge

Well I have just recieved word from Gary and he is talking my crank to the shipper on MONDAY  ;D

So I thought I'd share a couple of picture of the finished article......

- Stripped, Pressed apart and all parts "Checked/measured"
- New crank end piece (1 of the 5 sections) wich is now wedgemated
- All sections/rods FULLY polished to remove casting marks etc
- Rods Balanced
- Pressed back together WITHOUT rods and balanced with flywheel & clutch  
- Pressed apart again to have rods fitted with modified roller bearings
- Pressed back together for the final time-......
- Cross-Drilled across the sections for "pins"
- Pins then welded into place

So lets have your thoughts/experiences/engine specs/etc etc  :)

All together.....

The first truly terrifying Volkswagen that scared my balls off ran a Rennsport Werke (Jim Wellington) prepped 82 roller. It was in a 2276 that also ran ARPM Super Flo heads, Engle 125 and 48IDFs. All in a stock looking white '67 Sedan. And I mean stock, other than 5.5" chrome wheels and Wolfsburg crested nipple caps and merged dual mufflers. Otherwise the car was as VW sent it over here. With belt on, wearing 185 radials, the car clicked off 13.05's @ Sac. This was in 1990.
Wonder what ever became of that car.

Vroom vroom :) What weight is your flywheel?

So when is it come'n up for sale lee ?

- Jim... COOL STORY!!! What did it Rev too  ???

- Zach.... I am not sure what weight the fly wheel is, I am getting some more pictures over the weekend and hopefully a little more info

- Danny.... This is one item I will NOT be selling, there is just to much time,effort & money in it, I am guessing I have $2500 in it already  :o ::) :)

The best part is that Ian Clarke (WPS) is really up for building the motor.....
Its nice to have an engine builder who actually "Gets" what I want from this motor  ;D

I don't remember what it spun to. The owner, this guy Roger, offered to take me on a parts delivery run from Buggy House down the street to Dan Olson's shop. He pulled into center turning lane in front of shop, signaled, proceded to make a U turn and planted his RH foot and we were wagging our way south thru 3 gears down Mission. I was holding on for my life so I didn't look @ tach.

What is your plan for your motor?

Such a cool story  ;D

The Basics are: 2180cc, (82x92) Old 70's 92's UNKNOWN brand but "Good"  11.8:1 CR due to the Old Skool heads I already have... Engle 130 with straight cut gears, Magneto (fully rebuilt/recurved!), 48ida's on tall empi manifolds , Porsche "Small" Dynamo, Electric fuel pump (original 70's item!) etc etc

I'm hoping for around 170-180bhp and be able to drive to the track run a 13 and drive home again.......

Nothing special or Fancy.... Just a Big "Thumper" of a Street motor  ;)

Just curious....

What length are the rods?

I thought rollers weren't for hard drag race starts?  Heavy street car starts...

They have to be either/or pinned, or welded to prevent the crank (rod journals-to-the counterbalancers) from being twisted out of phase.

 :)  and I qoute....

- Stripped, Pressed apart and all parts "Checked/measured"
- New crank end piece (1 of the 5 sections) wich is now wedgemated
- All sections/rods FULLY polished to remove casting marks etc
- Rods Balanced
- Pressed back together WITHOUT rods and balanced with flywheel & clutch 
- Pressed apart again to have rods fitted with modified roller bearings
- Pressed back together for the final time-......
- Cross-Drilled across the sections for "pins"
- Pins then welded into place [/b]

This much more of a Street motor than a "Race" motor dispite the CR  ;) and its only going in a stock-weight 65 bug on 185 rear tires :)

I have mentioned this before but Gary has these "Modified" SPG's running in Turbo race cars on SLICKS!  :o :)

That crank is awesome - it's a work of art! It's going to be one hell of a cool motor when finished. Keep the faith and you will have a real hoot on the street and track.  8)

let me know if you need another 82mm SPG crank, as I have one which I'll probably never use...

Regards, Matt

Thanks buddy, I thought you might like this  ;)

I should have a few more pictures from Gary soon,

I can't wait to hear this thing finally run  ;D ;D

XLNT Crankshaft....BUT >>>> Beware of using slicks as these cranks do NOT enjoy the lifestyle of hard starts in drag racing. I am here as living testament to using these rpm busters. I loved each and every engine and or car I bought and sold in the day that sported one of these cranks regardless of the stroke. Jim Dutcher in the day would explode a roller crank at least every other outing so it seemed even with his lightweight cars.  Another story/My long time friend Mike Stickle who used to own the Auto haus in Utah "1974" had an offroad engine that lost oil pressure and lasted for SEVERAL more torturing miles until it too finally exploded. One with a good ear for engine sounds can actually hear a roller crank when it is about ready for a rebuild or ready to explode as it has a destinctive "clicking" sound as the crank is showing signs of fatigue. I had a manx with an engine passed down from Dean Lowry  that had a 74 stroke with 92's and 125 engle with 42dcnf's ...I was actually on my way to a freinds house to r&r  everything to be safe but I HAD to flog it just one more time before I got to his garage and I can STILL to this day some 20+ years later remember the fond sound of the crank letting go at about 6k rpm as it promtly "spit out" 2 pistons with rods hanging, into the gelcoat of the buggy and was imbedded there like a bad art piece with cascades of oil EVERWHERE/LOL.   aahhh, Those were the days/peace out/Dyno Don

in the mid to late 1990's we had a customer, an older gentleman, with a gorgeous 1970 KG convertible, ivory white, super cherry car. He had a 1915cc slated for it, in somewhat mild state of tune, but ended up having my boss buiild him a 2110 with 82mm SPG crank. I don't remember heads. Think it had a 125 Engle in it. It was more cruiser and less killer. In any case, Bug A Rama Sac was looming in the near future and I was planning on running my car and the boss offered me a tow in his enclosed up and back. With the offer of a tow I set my car up with dry sump bottom pulley and some other tweaks I wouldn't normally run on the freeway for hours on end. And so Saturday night comes and we end up @ Sac, ran my car (radials) all day Sunday. Our customer brought his car up as well, intially to show only. He got the bug to run the car and next thing you know I see him in the lanes. My buddy Bryan and I thought about it and politely warned him of what might happen to his crank. Big heavy Ghia, but with only 165 radials... maybe it'd be ok, but....maybe you should reconsider...
He ran it anyway. Posted something like a 16.70 so we "assume" he soft-footed it and everything was fine. Wrong. We find him back in the gravel with decklid up. Motor won't turn. He says "I don't know but I think the sump is starting to fall off." we look under car... the bottom of the case (not the sump) was blown open, forcing the external sump away from the case. Oil city. Crank was junk, German, gold universal (filled #3) was junk, cam broken, it was really sad to see. And I think the guy never fixed it. Just a sad story from the past.

sorry to continue... my boss learned of the motor going south in our customer's car and gave him my ride home. It was what was right, he was a customer I was the counter slave with a decent (though hot) running car that could get home. With that dry sump pulley, in Sacramento I was a little nervous.

COOOOOOOOOL stories Don.... Always great to hear stuff from "Back in the day"  ;D

I am not really planning on doing much "Racing" maybe a few runs to check shes got a 13 in her.......  ;)

I'm only gonna be using 185's at the most and its a standard weight bug etc....But I am not really worried as its been PROPERLY modified  ;)

It is nice to hear stories from people that have actually used/run/broken these cranks rather than the usual "I have heard....... "

Thanks again Don  :)

 The crank in question/yours/is AWESOME... (Great Attention to detail ) thanks for such xlnt pictures ,and it should last you a lifetime. The most noticeable trait you will experience is how smooth and how quick the rpms come on making it a joy to drive. I am also a firm believer of using a product (over 45+ years)called "Marvel Mystery Oil ", in the oil as it provides and xlnt "cushion" for this application. Best of luck to you... and ENJOY..!!  Peace Out/Dyno Don

Thanks again Don..... I was going to ask about "how they drive" compared to a normal plain bearing crank  :-\  :)

How much weight do they ad?

I am not sure how much overall weight the SPG adds but its quite a bit  :o

I had an email from Gary along with a few picture, Not sure on the exact weight of the Fly wheel (Zach) but its been "Lightened" balanced (with the clutch) 8 dowel'd & Wedgemated its also had the clutch surface "Re-Faced" as Gary puts it  :)

Anyway here are a few cool pic's.......

First one more of the Crank/rods:

Flywheel:

Cam/Gear..... Old Engle 130 :)

Clutch/HD Kennedy chosen by Gary  :-\ :)

HD friction plate again chosen by Gary  :)

Just heard from Gary..... Its a 12lbs Flywheel  :)

Cool. I'm thinking that crank would go really well with my Crown AL flywheel and Kennedy AL pressure plate ;) Might have to find one for the 1700 (88x69) I'm building.

Did he have any recommendations on an oil pump to keep those rollers lubed?

f

Gary Just said that this weight flywheel works well with the rollers and as for an oil pump..... He just said make sure its BIG  ;)

If it's not too much trouble, find out the crank/rod weight difference from him if you could.

No problem dude I'll ask him..... I know Rob(themanx) said it was a VERY NOTICEABLE difference in weight of the "Built" motor  :o

I know a few other members on here have SPG's "In-Stock" so maybe someone could weight one for us and post the results...

Mr Keene maybe  :-\ :)

Quote from Gary's Email:

"Pictures of the parts. This will be a couple of emails because of the sizes of the pictures. Let me know is there is anything else you want to add. Sorry this took so long to put together. Oh as far as the engine we are currently testing. I found the back up engine I had for the old race car Lil Snort. Funny found it in a couple of old boxes marked playboy magazines. It is complete heads and all from the 70’s. The guys in the shop finally convinced me to put it together and dyno it just to see what it could do. We opened it up from the 88 it had in it and put in some 94 Mahle’s. It hit 220 hp not bad for a 82 roller and 94 mm. The 94”s are the only part that was new. It has Hilborn injection on pump gas. You remember that blue sedan I sent you the pictures. Might put it in that just to see what it could do?? I might just sell the engine as it is seeing it is from the 70’s don’t really know yet. Need a buyer. I found a heavy duty tote that I used as a crate and separated all the parts so as they will not hurt each other. Lee please remember the key to keep the roller alive and healthy is a large oil pump. Make sure you have good oil pressure and it will keep the rods from going dry. And always when changing the main bearings be sure they are cut properly so they squirt oil to keep the rods lubricated"

" Also the roller is really dry due to the time it was resting. It would be best to soak it in a 5 gallon can of new solvent then blown dry and oiled. Always store it standing up"

"Flywheel is 12 lbs. Best at that weight with the rollers. I would use 30 weight for around town and 50 weight in racing. If it is really cold use the 30 for racing. DO NOT USE THE SYNETIC OILS. THEY DO NOT FAIR WELL IN AIR COOLED MACHINES. Like I said the most important part is lots of oil pressure. That is the key so a big oil pump like an old DDS pump. They work great."

So is anyone one interested in buying that engine Gary mentions  :-\ ??? ;) :)

Here you go Zach....... And some other stuff worth thinking about  :)

"82 rollers weigh 36 lbs and normal 82 weighs 20 lbs and rods are 1 1/2 pounds each so a total of 26 lbs. One thing to remember is drag and weight coefficient. The weight actually starts working for ya when the RPM are up. You will notice the roller actually revs at a slower rate but it is smoother and stays revved for a longer time. The SPG is the reason back in the late 60’s we learned how to wedge mate. Lots of tork on the flywheel end. That is why the dirt track guys liked them back then and to today still run rollers. Higher revs with a lower drag coefficient makes for a longer hp range. Understand?

Cold starts.. Always let it warm up a bit especially in cold weather.

Starting from hot no problem as long as you have 30 lbs of oil pressure at idle.

Oil change every 3,000 miles or 6 months. Why 6 months? Condensation builds up in the oil. Remember in complete combustion water is formed. Just look at any exhaust pipe you will often see water dripping out. This water eventually works its way into the crank case.

Running temps has nothing to do with the roller if set up correct. It is all how the fan and airflow and timing is set up. You can burn a motor down if the timing is retarded to much. It is actually pushing the piston down before it reaches TDC. Also if the oil cooler is mounted in a dead area space it can raise oil temps. Personally I like to see 180 to 200. 220 is acceptable but not for long periods of time. If you are constantly running 220+ start looking for ways to correct it for it will drain the life out of the engine. A 10 1/2 combustion engine will live half as long as a 9 1/2 engine and a 8 1/2 engine will live twice as long. Understand? Also there is no substitute for CC’s. CC are the cheapest way to build horsepower.

Funny thing you asked. A long time ago an old timer told me I was wrong calling and engine a motor. He reminded me a engine is an internal combustion machine and a motor is an electrical magnet. I guess that makes the magneto a motor. Right? Well I have remembered that for some 40 years and get a chuckle every time someone calls a engine a motor. Everybody does it. I was just talking to Paul Schley the other day (Lighting Bug) and he was calling the engine a motor.... Just one of those things we take for granted.. There are tons of things that I could tell ya but there is one that should be understood to save money. Just a little rolling start saves you $$$ Dropping the clutch will eventually twist or break something. Also a trick for big motors if you are on a budget is a 6 volt starter with a 200 gear. That way you can spin the engine (motor) quicker for a faster start. Back in the day before these new starters we all ran 6 volt starter (motors) on a 12 volt system. Also when you are running a magneto it actually needs to run over 2,500 rpm to compensate for the drag. Rule of thumb keep it cool and keep yourself cool.... Or what we used to say “run cool look cool run hot you will stop!”

I saw a large pump DDS oil pump on Samba for $150.00 Not a great price but a good one is worth it. Make sure he has the O ring gasket that goes in-between the pump housing and the cover. If not offer him 25.00 less. Oh also 48 IDA’s  look really cool but actually 44 run better for the street and are much easier to keep in tune."

Roller cranks came with 5.354" Porsche length rods

Cool thanks buddy, Always good to have more info...... 

Quite "Short" rods...

 :)

That was my next question! Even the stock stroke cranks? Or just the strokers?

10lb weight increase doesn't sound bad. A chopped standard flywheel and AL pressure plate can easily make up for that.

It does sound like a lot of extra hassle and cost though. But I'm glad someone is still up for it ;)

No need to tell me about the COST.......

I have over $2500.00 in the Crank/flywheel/clutch etc

I am soooooooo looking forward to getting al these parts together in one place (with Ian!)

 :)

Can anyone help with this???

http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,22097.0.html

Contact Fritter...

Thanks dude PM & Email sent  ;) :)

Lee, just a little question ( and yes i do get it)

Why don't you run a berg blueprinted pump and cover?  these were around back in the day.  They come with 30mm gears so will supply more than enough pressure.

What is the difference between a deano pump and GB pump?  Apart from the name.  Serious question.

With so much invested I also wonder why you don't think about a DDS dry sump!

Fair point well made......

I'll be honest the ONLY reason I'm thinking of a DDS flow-flow pump is because Gary recomended it.....

I will see what Gary says about the "Dry-Sump" idea..... I have thought of it but my thinking was that there would be more
"Splash-Lubrication" with the normal "wet-sump" set up  :-\  :)

DDS ones are really huge, 36mm.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1489539

Yeah I know I've seen it  ;)

I am still waiting to hear from Gary on this one.....

BUT as I have been discussing with another member, In my mind NoS means BOXED/WRAPPED ie NEW!!

Especially when we are taking about OIL PUMPS!

Well here is what Gary says Lids....

OK now for the question. The twin cam Porsche had a roller back in the late 1950’s which had a dry sump system so I am sure Porsche felt it was ok to run a dry sump. I personally feel it is a bit of overkill to say the least. The one most important thing is to have lots of oil pressure. When adding external coolers and dry sump systems oil pressure actually is affected because now the distance the pump has to deliver has expanded to other areas other than the galleys of the case. Kind of like adding on another length of hose on the water supply. Sure the water will get there but it has to travel a lot farther to get there and some actual pressure is lost. Understand?? Also when adding a dry sump system there are lines that can leak (or blow off) that can cause all kinds of problems. Unless you were going to place this engine into a dune buggy that does a lot of down hill running I would suggest against it. Just don’t need it and why have another thing that can cause a headache. What I would suggest is a large pump, a wind-age tray, and a quality extra oil sump bolted to the bottom of the case to add oil capacity.

Things to think about.... Your roller is only oiled from the mains. Your main bearings have been modified to (squirt) oil through the holes in the crank to the rods. Look at the crank. The two large weights have holes in them. They have two purposes. One is to aid in the pressing of the crank apart and back together but the most important purpose is the mains squirt the oil out through those holes to the rods. Some oil pressure on the mains is sacrificed to supply this squirt to the rods. Personally I would not want to lower that pressure to going to other devises. You already are going to an external oil cooler and filter why take the chance going to another oil supply. Understand? Sure we have put dry sump systems but only on a dune buggy that is subject to a lot of down hill running that washes away the oil from the pump pickup/pump housing area. I must add here that we do add dry sump systems to our roller engines that go into small aircraft but then again you are probably not planning to go upside down.... Right?? Just trying to be funny here!! Another saying “Keeping it simple keeps it fun.”

AT LAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
After approx 8/9 years and approx £1800+ I finally have my FULLY rebuilt/modified SPG Roller Crank IN MY HANDS!!!!

Along with a set of modified main bearings, A Lightened/balanced/wedgemated flywheel, Kennedy clutch, Engle 130 & magnum straight cut timing gear......

And in a few weeks it all gets handed over to Mr Clarke at Wolfburg Perfomance Services, Then hopefully by the time EBI 6 rolls around I will have a nice new engine for the 65...... I CAN'T WAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bet that feels good after all that time ;D
What's the spec of the rest of the motor? Gearbox?
Lee

Yeah I just keep holding it a looking at it..... Its such a nice piece of engineering  :)

The basic are:
- 82x92
- 11.8:1 CR
- Engle 130
- Magneto
- 48ida's
- Oldskool heads (Unknown make/model/porter???)

I will know more "Details" once I have visited Ian and dropped all this to him...... I know he likes the heads  ;)

11.8:1, street engine?
Lee

As for the Gearbox..... I have a  Quaife LSD (see pic) and I am "Thinkin" I'll start with a "GT Box/Ratio's" with a slight Longer First Gear to make use of all those RPM and a Slighty shorter 4th......

Any input on the gearbox side would be GREAT  ;D

Ian seems to think it will be ok.... its what the head cc works out to, I did think it was a little high but Ian assure me its "Streetable"  :)

IMO, If the car is staying stock weight, and you wish to road trip it, stock 4.12 gearing is best.

Cheers Zach.... Not really planning on "Road-Trippin" this motor much, Just driving to and from the track and a bit of Street Racing  ;)

Any other thoughts  ??? :)

Unless it's really light, stay 4.12 on the R&P. The car will feel more urgent, willing to take off. Full interior, street car? Do you have ET goals? How far is the track? Drive to EBI again maybe?

 Do not run high compression ratios with the roller- bearing cranks as the aluminum cages for the rollers will deform !

Well I did discuss CR with Gary and he didn't see any problems......

And thanks for the input Zach..... I have no real "Plans" for this motor, if I do go long distance then I'll A frame the 65 behind the Bus :)

The most I would probably drive at one time would be 80-100kms..... Maybe a little more, And take it out for a thrash in the evenings/sundays.....Thats "Streetable" enough for me  ;) :)

I don't want to get tooooooo hung up on details as I am leaving most of the finer details to Ian (Thats what I am paying for!)

I know he has run 11.something CR's in his cars/engines that have seen alot of "Street use" inc EBI & back in his split......

I was hoping he might drop in on this thread.......

I did pick this up......

Non doghouse?

To each their own, but IMO those things are ugly. And definitely not period correct cal look (which I assume is what you're after).

It will be "Dog-house by the time I'm (matt Keene) is finished with it...... Also gonna remove the heater outlets

I just like the look of something slightly different, I also prefer the "Flat" look to the top of the housing.....

Why not run only an external cooler and keep the shroud as it is?

Well because I want to run BOTH the original cooler & an external cooler......

I've always had a soft-spot for these fan-housings... I think they have a more "industrial" look and fill the engine bay nicely  :)

Gonna visit Ian soon so should have some UPDATES on the engine ;)

Updates to follow asap.....

Verging on porn.....

It will be even better at 10,000+ rpm ;)

 ;D screaming!

I don't see why they did pursue the roller cranks, barring the sifting issue with drag starts they were/are amazing.

they must be able to fix that, if i can dump the clutch on my 540cc supermoto on a pressed crank with sticky tyres they must be able to handle it with mods.

Just a shame they aren't still as popular!

This is what mines had.....

- Stripped, Pressed apart and all parts "Checked/measured"
- New crank end piece (1 of the 5 sections) wich is now wedgemated
- All sections/rods FULLY polished to remove casting marks etc
- Rods Balanced
- Pressed back together WITHOUT rods and balanced with flywheel & clutch 
- Pressed apart again to have rods fitted with modified roller bearings
- Pressed back together for the final time-......
- Cross-Drilled across the sections for "pins"
- Pins then welded into place

I have talked to Gary a few times and he has talked about using them on 300+ BHP TURBO Engines, On Slicks!  :o :)

Oh and his Daughter uses one in her Daily driver  ;)

i think the pins sound like good insurance, i'd run one! sounds like it'll be amazing once built!

was it easy to get replacement parts?  8)

Actually pretty easy to get parts, Rods are getting harder to get hold of......

Gary has a massive stock of Parts/sections etc ready for rebuilds :)

Once modified & checked there is no reason not to run them... In my eyes  :)

Hahahaha funny you mention that Danny as I NEED to sell this lot really as I have a few personal issues at the moment  :-\

Oh well.....

Drop me a pm if any of you are interested ;) :)

So anyone want to buy it??