The Cal-look Lounge

hi guys

Looking to put together a more period driver engine for my 59. Car is full weight with pro street gearbox 3.88 with .89 fourth

Currently have
As41 case
69 mm wedge mated chevy journal crank
5.5 CB H beam rods
94mm mahle barrels and pistions
Jeff denham 40/37.5 heads
Vertex mag
Short manifolds
Italian 48 Ida's

Looking for suggestions for cam, rockers and compression. Had a k8 in a larger 2276cc which got the job done but think I may need some more revs in the smaller cc engine

Suggestions welcome please

Regards Ron

FK8 in the 1915cc sounds good. Didn't Dave run low 13's/high 12 with a FK8?
Lee

I'd trade the 5.5 rods for 5.4's to keep the engine stock width.
Don't go too wild on the cam or it will be a dog off the line with the 3.88.

Dave ran a 12.80 with the k8, I was thinking k8 but was worried about using it with the smaller engine size.

Zach I was told to avoid the 5.4 rod as the clearances were very tight with the crank I'm using

Which clearance?? I don't see how that's possible seeing as 69mm crank and 5.4 rods are stock. In what way would a longer rod increase clearance?? With the smaller Chevy journals you have more room than standard. The longer rods will make the engine wider, pushrods longer, getting the tins to fit properly will be a challenge, not to mention the rod ratio becomes massive at 2.02:1.

Hi Zach

I'm using a 5.5" rod with the crank because I was told to use them to avoid clearance issues with the push rods rubbing on the pushrod tubes even when using really wide ones with this combination. This I'm told is a common problem with the shorter rods with chevy journal cranks.   

Also would a rod ratio difference of 0.039:1 make much of a significant change to the engine characteristics apart from making it rev slightly slower. I don't mind trading off a little to make building the engine easier and give me less problems in the long run.   

I was really looking for cam and compression suggestions from people who have built similar engines in the past. As I said I'm looking for a fun driver not a drag racer as I have other cars for that so maybe the k8 i had before would be the cam to go for with a bit more compression than I had on my larger engine to liven it up a little.

Best Wishes

Ron   

You could look at my wife's 1776. Instead of focussing on static CR, Steve said let's go for the tightest deck possible and let the CR fall where it wants (9.4CR). No chamber work was done to lower CR with the otherwise stock 041 heads so all the squish band was intact. He milled it to .030" deck and the piston touches the head as it warms up for the first 1 or 2 minutes and then as the piston expands and gets straight in the bore all is well. He said next time we will use .035" deck so that is what I recommend you do. Engine is snappy! NO PROBLEM with taking off in whatever gear you want, like take off in 2nd from a stop, or take sharp corners in 3rd, it's up to you. No pinging when you do any of that stuff even with reg gas! It makes for a very fun car to drive with power in any gear, shift whenever you want and just have fun! (he also modded the dist for quicker advance)

Anyone who builds an engine and is happy for the pistons to hit the head 'until it warms up' is not an engine builder I'd recommend.

Hi Ron,

do you already have the 1.4 rockers for the K8?
I've built a few 1914's over the last 25 years, always like the K8 in them. It will be cammy though. I think shorter ring and pinion would work better than the 3.88:1.
In light of your ring and pinion (tire size?), I'd look at Web 163 or Engle 120 with 1.25 rockers. Old Engle V26 would be good choice too. Stay away from fast ramp stuff like VZ or FK4- cams.

Or since you mentioned you want a driver, use 1.1:1 rockers on a cam designed for 1.1:1, so you get maximum valvetrain and spring life.

He said the go kart guys do this routinely.

They also have roller bearings --  This would pound the hell out of standard bearings -- even for just a few minutes -- and VW's "grow" differently than cart engines -- --

Can't imagine center main of the VW case likes that much.

All true but still better than a boring old Berg low CR 1776. Go .035" and you won't be sorry!

What about an Engle 130?

Yeah, I had one of those boring old Berg low CR 1776s.  Wait a minute I drove it 100K miles, had a lot of fun and sold it for $4000.00.  CR was 7 to 1 had stock valve size heads ported by Clyde, had an Engle 110 (GB297) and was a blast to drive.  I could cruise at 75MPH all day long without overheating.  I forgot it had semi-hemi heads and we all know those don't work, right?

I even wrote a little article about driving it from Phoenix to Detroit.  I broke a valve the first time (stock TRW) and switched to Manley with no more issues.  One thing it wasn't was boring.  I had a lot of torque and was fun to drive.  It was not a racer.  I got that out of my system back in my MX days. I remember someone asking me what I had to do to prepare for the drive from Phoenix to Sacramento back in '97.  I told the guy that I had to put gas in it.  That's all.  It was my daily driver up until late 2002.  Gene was a friend and while you may not agree with what he preached, he sold combinations that worked and his products were of the highest quality.

That's what I always liked about your '66 Don, you drove the wheels off of it.

I built a 7.8:1 2016cc for one of my best friends, Kyle Madden, stock valved heads, Scat cam (similar to W125) everything was done conservatively, and to live. A very simple motor, fed by 44IDFs. Last I heard it had over 150,000 real miles on it. Due to an emergency, a friend of his in Phoenix AZ called him one night and needed a ride back to Northern CA. Kyle's only car was his RHD '63 with the motor he and I built. It was July. Drove there and back to Hayward with only a generator pulley shim issue.

What Don is talking about is a "driver".... Kyle's 2016 was a "driver"

Boring to me is looking at your ride on jackstands waiting for the bread to fix it.

to me a W110 is a good 'driver' cam if you are modest with other parts as well. even with the better heads and a bigger engine this cam works great. i would chose it in a any combination with a 69 crank and a car that would be a 'driver'. yes it will not have the higher RPM band, but if you like to pull from idle to more modest rpms (say 4500 - 5000) in all ease and still get a kick out of it, this cam works.
don't forget that bigger (longer duration) cams need more CR and revs to work.
if memory serves me right i think Donnie's engine was one of the lowest HP engines in the VWtrends dynoday, but i think a lot would agree his car was/is driven and not short of power to drive in traffic today. 

My low CR Berg 'mouse' motor was a lot more fun when we bolted on the Low Bugget turbo kit and cranked up the boost to 15 psi! Loved that push when it came on.
The other recipe which I'd like to try is Aircooled.net's mileage motor combo. My friend Steve agreed with what John had said in this article and plans were underway for a 85.5 x 84 stroke combo that would have delivered great mileage and torque for my original 71 bus. I ended up rebuilding it stock but still, a cool idea... http://www.aircooled.net/vw-type-1-mileage-engine-mpg/

my current "driver"

https://www.facebook.com/jim.ratto.3/videos/vb.100000122375079/1119876338026435/?type=3&theater

Sorry for not getting back but been a bit busy last couple of days

Thank you all for your suggestions, food for thought

Regards Ron

I'm thinking along the lines of HotVWs mileage motor. 76 Stroker with stock valved heads. Mild cam is part of the equation, CB mileage or 110ish. Feed it with 40 Dells. HotVWs used H beam con rods, can I use clearanced stock rods with good bolts? Currently using the Dells on a 1600. This is fun but I want more.

There are some new stock type heads but with Stainless 40x35.5 valves costing only $250 each that could be used for a mileage motor as I doubt the 'larger' valves would take away from your economy. https://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C13-98-1329-B

I dont want to start a new thread but I have managed to get these parts?
Thoughts please
78 DRP crank
94 pistons
CB 044 cnc round port heads with 40mm intakes
Dell 45's
C45 cam
1.1 rockers
Light flywheel

Will it be OK?
Thanks

This is the problem.  I've never heard anyone claim to have run 94s for high mileage.  But with 90.5s it's easy to find claims of long life.  Donny above said 100k miles.  I'm almost there, 97k miles with 90.5s

I don't know if any size P/Cs give you guaranteed long life. When we disassembled the (now) 1776 the old pistons were very worn with visible gaps seen between the piston and cylinder where the piston was worn into an egg shape. These were thick wall 88's, famous for long life. The formerly low compression engine has a complete Berg bottom end with C/W 69 Berg crank, fully balanced, Berg rods, Berg oil pump and Full Flow oil system with filter and regular oil changes. But after 75,000 miles, through four Toronto seasons a year and 14 years they were garbage. There is no point in pushing the lifespan especially when new P/Cs and heads are so cheap now. So we left the bottom end, as bearings and end play were still fine and redid the top end. Put whatever size you want and go have fun, don't overthink it.

I forgot It will be about 10 + compression ratio
Thanks

Mine is going to be a one day a week driver so not too bothered how long it will last??

You could easily give it more cam, but then it would also want bigger (42x37.5) heads.

It's a good combo as is, not meek, but not wild either. It will be a fun ride for sure.

It's not about the cost of the parts.  A driver will get lots of use.  Do you want to have to rebuild the engine every 3-4 years?  I don't.

Have you seen any examples of a properly built street engine with 94 pistons wearing out prematurely? It seems that the top end of bug motors last around 50,000 miles and the bottom ends last about double that.

Alright, let's hear from all those guys who have run a 94 bore engine for more than 50k miles. 
A re-ring job half way doesn't count.

My buddy (jdub on here) most definitely had over 50k on his 1915, I'm not positive if it was ever re-ringed but I doubt it. It was together for 18 years I think?

IMO, guys that are building for mileage/longevity are the exception to the rule in this hobby, or at least on this forum. I know I would get ansy for upgrades with any performance engine well before 50k happened ::)

Exactly,
With my motors annual mileage 50k miles would take me 150 years anyway :)

I've found loose head studs on ALL my motors as well after being driven for at least 10 years.

With 94mm bore.

Still waiting to hear from all the guys who ran 94s for more than 50k miles.  80k km in Europe.

I mean all my motors, even the stock motor I just rebuilt the top end on. The motor was in perfect condition after a few decades of use in my all original 71 Bus, as I drove it every year and I've owned it since the late 90's. There was even no blow by at the head, but a couple of the head stud nuts were loose. Rebuilding the top end of any bug motor every 50,000 miles or 10 years to me is a must. Life is too short to be driving around with a motor that has loose heads or worn pistons or worn rings and it's really easy to deal with and lets you change up your CR or chambers, or valves, or porting, etc., etc.

Sorry, but if all your engines have the heads falling off after only 50k miles, you're doing something wrong.  It's unreasonable to expect only 50k miles from a stock engine.

My 71 van is all original (65,000 miles now) and I know the engine was replaced when it was still new with a VW of Canada rebuild which was built at their rebuilding facility in Scarborough, ON. I was surprised what beautiful condition the motor is still in and really it did not need rebuilding but I replaced the heads and P/C's anyway since I had bought them. Other than a slight little oil drip from the oi pump cover which I resealed, the engine overall could have kept going EXCEPT it had a couple loose head stud nuts. It's something that you have to experience first hand to believe, but I'm convinced these engines need attention after 10 years of driving regardless of who built it, what size P/Cs you use, what compression you run, and you will be rewarded with a quieter, smoother running vehicle. I recommend doing it Bruce, you won't be sorry!

Isn't 50K generally considered the typical mark for burned exhaust valves on a stock engine?

I know I would be sorry.  Sorry for wasting my time taking apart a perfectly good running engine.

Here's my current engine:
Built 15 years ago.
97k miles on it.
I checked the head nuts last fall, every one was tight.
The valve train is so stable, the lash never changes.
Last year's smog test burned very clean considering the extra tight specs my particular year has to meet.  This proves the cylinder and valve sealing are excellent.


The way you treat your engines makes no sense.  You take apart a perfectly good running engine, then throw away the heads and P&Cs.  Why not just leave them on the engine and keep running it?

When I started taking my cars to my friend Steve to get work done, he noticed the loose heads on one car (he could hear it), and then started checking the other ones and came up with this common problem. If he hadn't noticed, I probably would have kept driving like everyone else. With my wife's bug going from a low CR/worn out pistons going to a high CR/fresh top end with tight deck/flame port was a transformation for that car to something more modern with more power. With my 71 Bus, we are soon going on a two week road trip to Halifax from Toronto so it was perfect timing to freshen up the otherwise ok running engine. I didn't throw away the original P/Cs and heads from the Bus, but driving with those old heads from so long ago makes me nervous. At what point are you going to rebuild your engine Bruce? Wait until the compression tester shows a drop in one cylinder or you hear a noise? That's very impressive getting 97,000 miles like you did. As Gene B. would say, 'great value!'

Thank you for all the input but I'm sorry if I led some people down the wrong tack. Been a little busy to get back on the forum lately so haven't had the time to respond as I should have 

My intentions for this engine would be something I can jump into and drive 150 miles without having to worry if it gets there or not. Most journeys  would be in the 40 mile one way type. Average annual Mileage would be something in the region of  3000 miles if I'm lucky and have around 100 hp 130 hp or so. Intentions are to have More of a gt car which I think has been covered on another thread on here.

50 k plus miles is not a issue but current thinking is k8 with reasonable amount of compression and the parts as listed before. I think maybe the gearbox I currently have for the car should be swapped for some suited to a street car.

Still thinking if I should go 1914 or 1776 as still got to find some Pistons for the 94 mm barrels I have or just buy a complete barrel and piston kit.

Again thanks for the input

Regards. Ron

Ron. You need to decide whether you want a driver or a weekend warrior.

An fk8 in a 1914 will give you weekend warrior behaviure.

With those heads and valve combo you - need - to have a relatively large exhaust system, or the engine will get a tendency to run warmer. If you want the 1914 to pull the transmission with ease I would go lower lift and split duration or at least split lift. I´m thinking Web 109/110 on 108 LC advanced 2 degrees. Even that will be on the high side. Maybe a Web 110 with 1200 1-1 rockers on the exhaust, so it doesnt bleed off all the DCR at lower rpms.

T

I will get the 1.25 rockers but what size exhaust would people recommend?
As ai have nearly finished the body and am about to start haveing the engine put together
Thanks
Dave