The Cal-look Lounge

My Oval wouldn't start today! It has a 2276cc engine, FK87, wedgeports 10.3:1 and IDA's.
Battery charged and spinning motor over fine, almost, and I mean almost fires.

Problem I see is once it doesn't fire, it seems like it results in the motor being flooded. I haven't started it for about 4-5 weeks but before when I used it it fired up first time.

It currently runs a genuine 009 and Bosch blue coil. Could it be the spark isn't man enough to start the motor after a pack of use??

Will a full MSD ignition set up help with cold start as I believe the spark is stronger/larger or can I use just a better coil??

Any thought would be appreciated, except for Danny saying go efi mate :)

I had a 6AL, MSD dizzy and Blaster coil on my race car (2276cc, close enough to 11:1 compression ) and it was good as long as the battery was charged fully. If I didn't top up the charge between runs it would occasionally be difficult to start or have a slight misfire. Don't know if that's any help to you!

go magneto mate :D

 :D :D :D :D :D :D

Thanks guys.

Even if the battery drops a bit of juice after racing, it will start on the button. It's after a longer period of time not using it (few weeks)

Lee

I recomend a halfords EFI..

MSD 6AL, distributor & 8.5 mm leads on my 2332 cc and it starts every time.  If I get a lot of races during one track night (i.e. 10-12), it will sometimes run my battery down, because I race without the fan belt.

Just to be clear, my car starts every time whilst racing, over a weekend, it's just when it's left for a period of time it's a bitch to start.

Going to try a new coil, and then see what happens
Lee

How many times do you pump the accelerator pedal before you start?

Mine use to start bad also, when it hasn t run for weeks, but I now know I have to pump the accelerator 5 times before starting, and it fires up directly.
Took me some time to figure this out.

Points or electronic?

If points, freshen them up. File the faces. How recent is your condenser? Lots of bad ones thru the shop lately...

Electronic? Pull the mounting plate out and check the base for moisture/corrosion.

Good Luck

It definitely feels ignition based, going to replace coil and check petronix as a first step
Thanks for all the advice (well almost all  ;D)

Ever tried to start that whipper-snipper for the first time after some rains? (or in your case, after winter I guess  :D)
Some fuels, here in Oz BP Ultimate 98 is crap for this, start to go off when left sitting for longer than a couple of weeks, I notice it in my bikes all the time. If I know it's going to sit for a while I throw in some standard unleaded, lower octane ignites easier. Some brands of fuel here are much better than others for volatility.

Maybe change your brand of fuel?

My bug starts no problem after months standing

Keep,it topped up via a trickle charge but does have full mds set up currently

Magneto was good also

Show off  :D

Got a mag here or msd here if you want to try it lol

Msd you get a two step also  ;)

Yep, got an MSD dizzy in the box already, hence I asked this question. A couple of people have said MSD won't make much difference via pm. I think it's either the coil (likely) or the petronix
Lee

In my car, moving to capacitive discharge ignition in 1994, made the biggest difference in not fighting the car to get it to fire, when flooded.
I'm guilty of forgetting to remove the air-stack covers on my 48's before I attempt to start the car. Prior to installing the old 6A MSD box, I was running a 009 with Pertronix (I think it was called Per Lux way back then?), with MSD Blaster coil and Denso copper plugs. If I forgot to remove the caps and cranked the motor, while pumping pedal, it was no hope the car would not start (for awhile)after I removed the covers. Once I installed the MSD with everything else remaining the same, it would take a few cranks, but would fire up and clean up quickly.
I have noted once changing from MSD 6A to Crane HI6R digital box (in Dec 2015), the engine will run better at wide throttle openings at lower-mid RPM. I now run a Bosch TCI coil. The plugs are cleaner as well, with carburetor settings remaining identical to MSD settings.

Jim

Has anyone tried this Winterburn CDI? http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1557647

^^^^^^I'm curious about the Winterburn Ignition System as well....I have read the documentation and it looks like a well designed ignition system.

The problem with hard starts are more often than not related to voltage drop to the coil. If an MSD system wohnt start when warm, there is a problem with the unit, even on low voltage.
The issue with low voltage is typically the key assembly. instead of drawing 70-100 W through the key base plate, use a relay and then use the wire from the key as activator. Then you get a much more steady voltage to the ignition system and hard starts are history. - Provided of course that you do not have other problems that really should be adressed.

T

Swapped the coil for a new one, a slight improvement as it almost ran but still refused to fully fire and run.

We checked the spark, it seems very weak even with the new coil. Any more advice? I  running a varley red top 15 battery. My dad suggested rigging up a 'jumper' battery to use as a start up battery? Good idea?
Lee

Have you be able to try a new Pertonix?

If the battery tests good I doubt adding a second one will make much difference, a single car battery in good condition has a pretty low output impedance, sure adding another will half it, but half of not very much, is still not very much.

What's the internal resistance of the battery?

Andrew

I didn`t 100% belive in all that multi spark, stronger spark bla bla, till the point I grilled my mallory box (equal as mallory) on a drive.
There was condense water in the box -> ignition on -> bzzzz -> toasted.
I was out with the car so had to unwire the box to make the car drive again. That was easy, but I noticetd when driving without the box that it was not driving so smooth espacilly in the low-middle rev`s. Don`t get me wrong it ran and didn`t had misfire or something liken that, but there was a real difference in how smooth the engine ran with the box.

Hey Leec , I have been running MSD on my cars since the early 90's with great results. The first car I used it on was my 1969 911E that I souped up , made it into a 2.4 and added dual 3 barrel Webers . The car was miserable to start after sitting a few days and fouled plugs . I added a Pertronics to the distributor along with an MSD 6T box and matching coil , end of starting problem and ran great . My Turbo street bug has MSD on it also , starts and runs very easily . Is there other stuff that will work as well , probably but with me I see no reason to change. The box I have now is a 6aln HVC I purchased off EBAY for 100.00 USD along with the coil .  Mike McCarthy

I run 16v because I noticed a high rpm misfire at times. I attributed it to running without the alternator allowing the coil to see less than 12v at high rpms, when the coil is drawing a lot of power to "recharge"

Everything works better now, starter, lights. The difficulty is finding a "step up" box to allow the alternator to charge the battery under normal driving.

I also run a 6al, and homemade crank trigger, all MSD components. Never a problem in 11 years.

Same here, real difference  in driving the car, smoother, no more black spark plugs after long ideling or forgetting to remover carb covers.

Bit of an update,

Ron Elliot popped round with some bits to swap out and try.

Battery is definitely good, engine turns over fine.
11 volts getting to coil when motor cranking over.
Changed lead from dizzy to coil, some improvement, almost starting
Checked spark on a couple of leads, seems really weak.
We concluded a weak spark is what's stopping it fire.

I am thinking it has to be the pertronix, we ran out of time to try points and see what happens.

Looking at the price of a new pertronix, I have to say I would rather pay a bit more and get the 6al 2.
I already have an MSD dizzy. Would just need the other bits and the 2 step function would definitely help my 60 foot

Lee

Lee

One thing we didn't try was disconnecting the tachometer from the coil.

Had this problem a few years ago where it was grounding out somewhere from the gauge to the rear of the car this was before I ran the magneto a few years ago.

May be worth a try

Regards Ron

finally managed to hook up the Winterburn CDI after a year of storing and waiting car completion. car is  i fitted in my spare stock 1600 motor so I can drive the car around while waiting for the other motor to be complete. Nothing fancy, stock 1600, 1.5 merged, S&S DQP, Glenn Ring restored 019, stock blue coil, JDM Ultra BP plug cables, NGK BP5H plugs, dual 40 DRLAs. Engine was built by myself in 2011, all stock low mileage late german engine.

I was running on stock points and condenser for a few months and after wiring up the CDI alone, no other changes made, I was impressed with the differences. The response was “instant” throttle felt “lighter”

I am an electronics dummy, so I tried asking Fred, the guy who made them to explain to me what’s the diff between MSD and his version of CDI, I got a long reply that I couldn’t figure out much of the details.

All in all I was happy with the “upgrade”

(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee440/pupjoint4/Winterburn%20CDI/IMG_4206_zpsdwhfgiv6.jpg)
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee440/pupjoint4/Winterburn%20CDI/a8b916914a3ca07fffff81d1ffffe905_zpsxhftsnsg.jpg)
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee440/pupjoint4/Winterburn%20CDI/IMG_9900_zpsqr0b9i5g.jpg)
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee440/pupjoint4/Winterburn%20CDI/IMG_7799_zpsbxes0fim.jpg)
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee440/pupjoint4/Winterburn%20CDI/IMG_9905_zps8ihf6hxd.jpg)


ignore the black box next to the distributor, it is the old transistor switch box that i have not hooked up.
(http://i1227.photobucket.com/albums/ee440/pupjoint4/Winterburn%20CDI/IMG_9904_zpsxikupnm8.jpg)

Do you have Fred's reply, I'd be interested.

  thanks,

Andrew

Iv had this in the past with different set ups , all iv ever done is pull the plugs and either replace them or clean them and
it,ll fire right up , always after sitting for prolonged period over the winter .

Hi Donald,
Glad I am not the only one. When it's happened before fresh plugs has solved it as you describe but there has to be more to it than that surely? As I'm sure you can appreciate its a ball ache getting plugs out in an oval!
Lee

These two most recent replies above are what I feel.
Keep it simple.

Always do your basics first before complicating basic fault finding.

As much as I love my MSD, if it fixes the problem, you probably had an underlying issue.

Completely agree, I want to keep my msd for the new race motor. But essentially I am running out of options to check. I still believe I lack voltage to the coil but have checked all the wiring and nothing obviously wrong. I also don't believe I shouldn't be able to leave it for a bit without running, then have to pull plugs to get it to start. My 1776cc in my 63 bug goes for months sometimes, then fires up.
But it's a lot milder in terms of spec.

Stumped to be honest
Lee

pm me your email

I see the Winterburn can be 6 volt, but does anyone know any other 6 volt options?  Thanks

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

Not that I'm currently aware of.

I imagine, historically speaking, Winterburn had to cater for 6volt ignitions as well as 12volt, after all his patent is mid 60's and was granted in 71. One assumes he started work well before that, so plenty of 6 volt cars and probably other stuff like aero about then that might have been non-12v.

Looking at the circuit there's nothing on there that says "12v", if you see what I mean?

In fact, if your battery was in good condition then  the 'coils' on the Winterburn design could be wound in such a way that it would be as good as a 12v ignition, you just need to draw twice as much current on the primaries to get the same spark.

Andrew

Thanks.

Yes it's the only option I can see too. I think I'll get the Winterburn in time....

I have a well behaved 6v system and good (optima) battery so as you say ultimately it could be as good as a 12v ignition system...if only I could expect the same from the headlights.

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

http://www.classicandvintagebulbs.com.

Thanks for the link!

Sent from my SM-N920I using Tapatalk

Just to deepen the mystery, it started on the button today. Have done/changed NOTHING!!

I give up with cars  :D

so no advantages then?  ;D

Made my day when it fired! Wished I could have gone out for a drive but I had no front wheel studs!
Lee

Could it be moisture/damp related? Been a bit drier in the UK of late....

Exactly what dad and I thought. Certainly has warmed up recently as our new house (project) has no heating. Any positive temp change is noticed at the moment  ;D