The Cal-look Lounge

Noticed recently prices being asked for piles, nowadays?!?
Patched up 70's rotters for atleast 2.5k

Have prices really gone mad? I suppose busses have gone silly, now beetle's are next??

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vw-Beetle-Bug-Volkswagen-1973-1600-engine-Classic-Car-/332103980237?hash=item4d52f094cd%3Ag%3AyXIAAOSwt5hYihRd&_trkparms=pageci%253Ab33db207-e3fb-11e6-a598-74dbd180739f%257Cparentrq%253Adc339a3d1590a786f5ff2cf2ffa688e8%257Ciid%253A1

Well, all i can say is, even if I'm not from the UK, i'm glad i have the cars I always wanted!!!
Now trying to get them back on the Road...!!!

Frank

I've got rid of all of mine, ah well... don't think I'll ever be able to afford another decent one
My friend has offered me her 1302 for £1500 though  :-\
But judging from the link posted, it's a 4K car :D :D

Crazy....

Prices of all classic cars have gone up, there are still some bargains to be had. The days of £2.5 thousand pound ovals are long gone ( what I paid for mine twelve years ago).   Early bugs are fetching good money now , I probably couldn't afford to buy my oval now.

How about a used crankcase,  yours for only £999

http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vw-Type-1-Aircooled-Engine-Case-Full-Flowed-AD-Beetle-Bus-Split-Camper-Van-Bay-/152388542849?hash=item237b10a181%3Ag%3ArdoAAOSwo4pYcqZU&_trkparms=pageci%253Acda96219-e408-11e6-b2fa-74dbd1804d4e%257Cparentrq%253Adc8979d31590a5e0d7d487ceffac1bd5%257Ciid%253A6

Bargain  ;D
I've got about £4k of cases then

Don't forget that people on Ebay are most of the time out of touch with reality or are there to try their luck with a high price. The first link you've posted comes with the "make offer" feature for a reason, the guy hopes to stumble on a fool who'll "buy it now" for the asking price because he knows nothing, but the seller is aware he's asking too much for it. The problem is another tool will check Ebay, see this pile of shite and think in his little head "hey if that's up for sell for that much, I'll put mine up for sell for 500 more" and so on with another tool. There are plenty of things up for sale on Ebay since years and that will stay for much more years because prices are too high and the sellers think they have the holy grail. Thinking something is worth something is one thing, actually selling it is something else and Ebay is worst place for this (you can still find bargains or correct prices don't get me wrong, but from my experience very often the crazy prices are on Ebay, so it's not a reliable source to keep on eye on the market prices).

People should also keep in mind the Beetle is the classic car that was the more massively produced. But then again, the Type 2 is the more massively produced van and is far from being close to be rare, yet prices are stupid for it, not because it's rare but certainly for the same reason I've explained before. When you see Split busses are selling for the price of an Alpine Renault A110 or a 911  ::) As much as I love them, if I were to spend more than 50.000€ into a single classic car I would never buy an air-cooled VW.
Another problem is people tend to look at for how much money something is selling in USA, and want to squeeze the same amount of money from something more or less similar in Europe.

Classic Car.... that means collectable and in this day and age beetles are getting older and more collectable, Ive said it before but splits, ovals, 60s, super beetles and limited editions will continue to rise, not a bad thing for those who have invested in our cars making them better, they are after all now appreciating items.

Whilst £2500 is mad for that, some cars in a worse state will be worth more....

And Euro 50,000 is not too much for a proper classic beetle nowadays....

Take a great car and list the parts and see how much it would cost.....

example 50 split beetle used parts

Doors £ 500 each x 2
wings £ 400 each x 4
decklid £ 450
bonnet £ 600
interior £ 2-3k
engine £ 4-5k
Gearbox £ 2-3k
front beam £ 1k
wheels £ 600
windows/glass £ 300
almost £20k with no body or pan and paintjob...

so add

body £ 5k
Pan £ 1k
paintjob £5k

now £ 30k and not time, rubbers or other stuff...

so £ 50k for a fully restored detailed spilt is a cheap option....  ;D

Though if you want to add the cost of all the parts and single bolts used in a restoration + the cost of all of the hours, time and energy you've spent restoring a car, and imagine you will sell that car for what that's totally worth + make a profit out of it... you can try, yes, and it might work every once in a while if the car is really special and rare (actually rare) or has a certain history and background (race cars...). But I also know a lot of people, not only in the VW scene, who have their cars up for sale since years and years and no one is buying because they think they are worth a certain amount of money that is out of touch with reality. When you talk to them they always come with figures about how much money they've spent for parts and professional work, hundreds of hours they have personally spent, months of work, weekends and holidays spent working on the car, a 200 pages file of invoice for all of the parts bought and work done. But let's be honest: your personal time and energy is worth nothing on the most common classic cars. For most of the popular cars you can't even cover the price of the parts. If you want to make a profit out of your work, Porsches, Ferraris, Jaguars, etc... are I guess more rewarding.

I've noticed that with Golf 1 GTI's lately. 10 years ago they we're relatively cheap (in 2006 I've almost bought a '79 one, 1600 engine, 4 speed gearbox, rust free, small taillights and the old dashboard with round speedo and tach, for 1800€ to use as a daily driver with a roofrack and without rear seats to carry more stuff  ;D good thing I didn't because a friend of mind bought it when I left it pass, and 3 weeks later the engine that was supposed to be perfect and revised blown up into little pieces). Now a restored GTI is at least 10.000€. Why? They are not rare, they are as shitty as a basic Golf 1, all of the parts (besides the engine/gearbox/few little bits) are the same things as on a std Golf, electricity is a nightmare (those plastic connectors and that damn plastic fuse-box  >:() Okay the engine is fun but honestly when you compare a late 70s Golf to the Beetles made only 10 years before, Golfs are quite awful and cheap. And when you compare a Beetle with a hot engine to a Golf GTI, that's the same thing : the Golf is boring. Even restored std pre-1980 Golfs (those with chrome bumpers, small taillights...) are soon going to sell for more money than a late 60s Beetle.

(and no I don't hate old Golfs, I drive a one with a diesel engine daily that I use as a truck but it's more of a love/hate relationship between us  ;D)

The beetle in the ebay ad isn't worth the asking price and it is just an asking price and I suspect it will go unsold so it doesn't really represent what a '70s project is selling for. Also you have to remember a 1970 beetle is now 46years old , I don't think it is realistic to think you can buy and run one on a student budget, thats what 15 year old Golfs and Polos are for.

What I have noticed is hardly anyone sells an unfinished project on, they see more cash in breaking it up selling the desirable parts and scrapping the rest, which means there are fewer beetles available to buy at a reasonable price.

I also see people bemoaning the fact that they can't buy what they want dirt cheap but when it comes to selling parts they ask top money and wonder why their parts don't sell, I saw someone on facebook trying to sell a used pair of 40 idfs for £600 strangely they haven't sold.

It's not just VWs that are crazy money, I've recently started looking at Old School BMXs, the price I sold my original bikes for would only buy back a couple of components now I think if I recreated my old race bike I would be looking at over £2000!

True. Everything that is "vintage" (even if that word can mean all of nothing) is trendy and hype and is selling for a lot of money these days. I was looking for an old industrial/train station clock to put in my garage, and apprently that stuff got trendy and really expensive (don't even look at furniture classifieds with the words loft/art-deco/vintage in the title, not worth it it will be overpriced  :D) Not sure if that will last though, one of these days people will find modern stuff more trendy who knows (talking about vintage stuff in general, not classic cars).

Let me know where you get these from, will take 2 sets at that price ;)  The classic fab repos are £400 each and they don't even have any stock ::)

You want to sell parts like that cabrio decklid at todays prices[£350-400] but think cars should be at same price as 15years ago when buying, cant have it both ways   

True, but parts have always been worth good money.

It's just shit cars being asked for astronomical prices !

Some early parts maybe, but regular stuff wasn't, people just wanted repo news stuff and ignored good german used stuff, they still do to a certain extent.
 
You can scrap an original car now and easy get £2-2.5k out of it, and more if you are patient and sell all the little stuff, I was amazed at what sold off my 67 that I didn't need, people looking for rusty  :o but matching lotus white wings/bonnet etc and paying good money for parts that 10 years ago I would have thrown away.
And as someone else wrote there are always dreamers trying it on, it doesn't matter unless you are stupid enough to fall for it!!!

Richie your right I know my suggested values are low but that was a starting point,we all know that it cam go for more, if your almost completing a project or need one part to finish, most people will break the bank to get it.

Normally split wings for Saale need metal work and joy can lose 2-3 days on that alone...

You guys know a mild custom 65 Bus with windows added to make it a 21 window went for $302,500 last weekend at the Barrett Jackson Auction in Arizona?

http://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1965-VOLKSWAGEN-TYPE-II-21-WINDOW-DELUXE-BUS-200656

It's prices like this that throw gasoline on the fire of every ignorant idiot on the face of the planet with a pre-81 Bus with the bottom 6 inches missing now thinking its worth $30k.

I know of several people that mike a nice chunk of play money to further their VW sickness by parting out vehicles. Like mentioned, the VW's we love are now 35+ years old. You don't pickup a late 60's/early 70's American car in the U.S. for a few thousand dollars. In the Northeast of the U.S., clean good running/driving Superbeetles are $4k+. In an area where the average daily driven car is about 7 years old, anything surviving 20+ years is unique. Anything that's 20+ years that doesn't require a hundred hours of rust repair brings a premium price. It's great for those restoring vehicles, they can at least get more than 50% of the money they have invested in the restoration back if they sell it. It's a shame for those wanting to get involved in the hobby, or those that have been involved for 25+ years, and now see the opportunity to continue in the hobby financially slipping away.

When I bought my '51 it had been stripped of lots of parts like the wings. Apparently it had been brought over from Sweden with Ian Clark's '52 and was complete,  but got passed around a lot with each owner taking a few bits off it and then selling it on for the same price!

As to what Tom said initially, there are still bargains out there - buses getting really popular kept Beetle prices down but now buses are out of reach for lots of people, Beetles are getting more popular again so the prices are on the up. Add in the fact that the bad ones have either been restored or broken up and there aren't as many cars to choose from!

Normally split wings for Saale need metal work and joy can lose 2-3 days on that alone...
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2-3Days?  Bloody fast worker!  Wings are a bastard to work on.

Vehicles once affordable, that now are out of reach has a lot to do with it. The shop I currently work at has looked into the value of quite a few models of cars we have restored. When higher valued/more desirable models rise in value, that definitely excludes a certain group of collectors from then being able to afford them. Porsches also have a lot to do with VW price increases. We have a customer with a 73 911E that has had his insurance appraisal value increase almost 400% from his original purchase price from the late 90's. Another customer bought a unique color exterior/interior combo 993 911 Turbo around 2013, one of the last years for an Aircooled engine, and his purchase price is about 40% of what they are selling for today. From other collectors/restorers I've talked with, it seems to be about the time a vehicle gets to be about 60-65 years old when it's value peaks. I have a friend that collects Plymouth Fury's. While his late 60's models are still rising, some of his 50's models are actually plateauing/losing value. And the owner of the shop I'm at now has restored quite a few Model T's/Model A's, and their values have been steadily decreasing since the mid 80's.

VWs will continue to increase, they have something others can only dream about.

Should be true when you see split or bay windows busses selling for prices much higher than sport cars of the same era. 300.000 for a split, hey, somehow that's just an old commercial van or mini bus... An early Ford transit made the same work and worth not that much now. Go figure...

The $302k price, and the 2011 $217k price of a OEM restored 23 window have so far been flukes/oddities since barely anything else has past $150k since then. It's just now, anyone selling a Split, or Bay Bus will say "they're gettin $300k out of these things now".  Atmosphere, and ego have a lot to do with auction winning bids. The thread about the $300k Bus over on The Samba has a few speculating the Velocity Channel inflated the bid since they featured the Bus on one of their programs. I have had bids inflated on me at an auction, and have heard more than one instance of it happening to others.

I do agree that classic VW's will increase, for a while. I don't ever see something as common as a Split Bus, or Beetle making it to the $500k-$1 million mark though. Possibly something coach built like a Denzel, Rometsch, or a Hebmuller, but nothing with production numbers in the 10's of thousands. If the VW market is anything like the rest of the worlds markets of 20's, 30's, and 40's vehicles, anyone with a unique Aircooled VW needs to plan on selling it within the next 10 years to have the opportunity to reap the most reward. The market will collapse like all the others regardless of whether you are trying to sell your 50 Split Beetle, or 79 Super. The generation that had the most interest in the time period of vehicles we play with will have literally started to pass away. And as we all see at our shows/meets, there is but a tiny fraction of those interested in getting involved in the hobby younger than 30.

Yes, all these auctions shown in the medias by famous auctions houses are oddities (if they are even real...). If anything, I guess you can't stop someone from being stupid and throwing $300k into a VW Bus (and in my personal opinion, this bus $300k bus shown in the previous link was done with bad taste, it looks like one of these VWs you can see in magazines over here, restored with chinese and taiwanese new Empi parts, and I wouldn't try my luck removing the inner door panels or looking in the corners underneath the pan... because I bet these areas are not even painted). It shines too much to be a honest car  ;D

It's the same here and all of the people I know who are into pre-WW2 cars noticed the same. Cars from the 40s, 30s and 20s are losing value quiclky, except of course the US models more often used to customize : Ford 32, Willys 40, etc. Pre-war european models are losing the most (except for the Citroën Traction Avant).

Dave Kindig who did the bus in question is one of the best car restorers in the U.S.  His quality is almost unmatched, that is why he gets the money he does.

Still done with bad taste for me (as I said in the previous post, just a personal opinion) and way overpriced. But I also not into the cars/bikes Chip Foose or Jesse James are doing. That's maybe a lot of work and conception, but it's just not my kind of stuff.

I'm not knocking the builder. To me is was an incredible vehicle. Truth be known, if it was such a high quality build, $302k may not have cleared a profit. I just find it odd that every other OEM 21/23 window restoration, that has time, and time again proven to bring more money than a created 21 window "restomod", seems to bring $100k-$150k when this particular vehicle surpasses $300k. It only takes two bidders that want the vehicle, and one willing to purchase it at all costs. This vehicle could not be created for less than $100k at a paid shop, but the final sale price is a complete shock to all.

Bob Cook is one of the more renown restoration specialist on the Eastcoast. He had a beautifully OEM restored 52 Split Beetle that was offered at last Sping's Gooding auction in Amelia Island FL. With lesser vehicles being offered on The Samba for $75k, and $90k, I figured it would be a sure $100+k sale. It ended up going for $63k. The shop owners I work with now were attending the concours event at Amelia Island that weekend. Having done concours restorations since the late 70's, they physically looked at Bob's car, and were quite impressed. It all depends on what's going on in the room at the auction. Expensive vehicles sometimes go cheap, while cheap vehicles sometimes bring huge money.

IMO he is a butcher, no way that Splitty is worth the money unless it's filled with contraband 😉

Does anyone know if the bus is a 100% stock restoration or a custom one ??

Russell

Custom,1965 converted to a samba.
https://www.barrett-jackson.com/Events/Event/Details/1965-VOLKSWAGEN-TYPE-II-21-WINDOW-DELUXE-BUS-200656

Henk!!!

Money obviously doesn't buy good taste.

To each their own. I have yet to find that perfect vehicle someone else did that was exactly how I would have created it. Apparently the winning bidder thought it was pretty damn nice.

I know of a high end shop near me that the owner did an early 60's Beetle Convertible for his wife. It was a mild custom similar to the Bus mentioned. The body/interior were incredible, but the engine was a simple 1776 with Kadrons. It ran great, just not my style. He had it in the Mothers display at SEMA, and someone offered him 400% of what I would have ever thought he could have gotten out of it.

It's instances like those that raise the market value of stuff. Whether, or not they are offers by uneducated wealthly buyers that are buying without abandon, they are still legitimate offers someone is willing to pay for something. When these type of purchases start becoming more frequent, that's when values start to really increase.

Yes I hear you with respect to each to their own. It's not to my tastes and I could buy much nicer buses for a fraction of that price ,  buses that might return a profit in future unlike this one.


How much would it cost to build that thing?   bus needing restoration $20k, bodywork $30k, paint $20k, motor $10k,  interior $10k,  suspension brakes and wheels $5k.  Anybody with that kinda money to spend could find much better value if they commissioned a build themselves.

People who buy cars through auctions such as this one or through these tv shows are usually people who have no idea about the value of things, and who know nothing about VWs. Or they would know they could buy 4 or 5 other buses for the same price. They find the car cool, it's kind of trendy or fashionnable to have a more or less old-looking VW bus, so they buy it. Mostly to be able to brag about it then. 6 months later they see somewhere that another car/object/item is now cool and trendy and they will get it and forget about the previous one. The very same way they will one day wake up and decide they need to buy the Kanye West Nike shoes and they will spend $10.000 for a pair of chinese-made sneakers they will probably never wear.

The same thing happened here with Citroën 2cv's and Citroën Mehari's. At some point all the french TV stars decided the coolest thing was to drive an old Citroën 2cv in the streets of Paris or to go in vacation in St-Tropez in the middle of summer with a Citroën Mehari (and btw everyone who made the mistake to go to St-Tropez in summer knows it's hell on earth and the lamest place where to go driving... unless you need attention and you want people to look at you). Of course the prices of these cars suddenly sky-rocketed, and everyone who had a crappy 2cv from the late 80s was throwing a few shiny bits on it and tried to sell it for crazy amounts of money. Stupid amounts of money, when you know what's a 2cv or a Mehari is. It barely has more technology than a tent mounted on a radio-flyer.

What fraction do you feel you could buy a nicer Bus, 1/3, 1/2, 2/3's? Sure, buying a vehicle, and doing the restoration/build yourself is only going to have the costs of materials/parts. Few realize what a paid restoration, where you drop off your junk, and you drive home a show car, costs. Judging from the restorations on the builders site, he has done vehicles well into the six figure range, and most likely some into the seven figure range.

Actual correct concours restorations with correct headmark/plated fasteners, and authentic materials could easily surpass $100K for a Split Bus. As for the Kindig Bus, not sure what all was done, but it could easily surpass $100K-$150K. High end shops like his are usually $100-$120 an hour. With parts/materials, it can easily become $1000 in an eight hour day. You can easily see how a build with hundreds, and even thousands of hours can add up quickly.

A nice original sub $50k 11 window bus would be nicer imo but that just comes down to personal taste. I prefer factory colours and factory interiors.

There are a few top end restored buses for sale in the $50-100k range that make the $300k cloned deluxe seem very expensive.

Yeah, I guess you could find a lesser model  for much less. Finding a 21/23, or even a 13/15 window in complete restorable condition for less than $50k in the U.S. is becoming more difficult as we type. The shop owners I work for looked for a good 6 months at the end of 2015 to find a 23 window in need of a restoration for a customer. The best vehicle they located, that was complete/running, not missing windows/seats/bumpers/engine was $70k.

Also with the completed vehicle's, you could find something not quite as desireable/sought after for less. I disagree that you could find a top end build, of any Bus, comparable to the Kindig Bus for less than $100k. Still less than $300k though.

The builder/restorer's reputation and fame (fame in the automotive scene) also makes the price rising virtually. For example during the last couple of years Porsches built by Magnus Walker sold for a lot more than other outlaw Porsches. Same thing if you take a car built by Chip Foose, it will always sell for more money than the same car built by someone unknown, though the same amount of work and skills will have been put into the car.

Deluxe prices have gone crazy and personally I've never preferred the more window option over a pre 63 11 window bus. There are still a handful of top end deluxe for sale right now for half $300k so I still say that bus was way over priced regardless of the fact someone paid that for it.

Gone off topic here now anyways. Back to the subject matter of beetle prices, how about this beauty for only €24900

https://m.mobile.de/auto-inserat/volkswagen-k%C3%A4fer-gechopt-pink-panther-wasserboxer-andernach/229554592.html?ref=srp