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Title: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: jamiep_jamiep on February 13, 2008, 10:35:55 am And would running inner tubes make any difference? Or do they have to do that anyway with them being two piece? I'm closing in on a set but have heard horror stories about them exploding on people when they fit tyres.... I like my tyre fitter and he gives me a good deal ;) so don't wanna kill him!!! My car will also be used on the strip down to the 13's - how safe or unsafe would I be doing that on these wheels?
thanks guys! Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: alex d on February 13, 2008, 11:10:37 am I don't have experience with them, but I wouldn't fit them (or any other 40 year old fragile rim) in a 13 second car, JMHO
Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: Ivan on February 13, 2008, 12:01:07 pm I had an two piece 8 spoke EMPI shatter on me back in '89 when like the idiot I am, I gave the lug nut that one extra turn that I always seem to think feels essential...
But on the other hand, I have driven around on two piece fives and eights with not problems, cracks or problems. I don't have them any longer, but a friend in the town I live in runs OG fives on his Notch and they have a few small cracks. There was a horror story about a five that exploded a while back and injured someone. I think it was when the tire was popped up on the rim. Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: speedwell on February 13, 2008, 12:42:40 pm the car was an white oval with goldish empi 5 andy spilkoman if i remember and the car was on cover of hot vws and there's a page with problem he had we the wheels who exploded
i ran my empi five at in 97 without problems , but when i put them on my 356A brakes drums nobody explain me that i put a spacer between the wheels and drums and now i've somes cracks on my wheels , never run the wheels with the engine power , but the car was already towed drawn several times and not of problems until now hope that will never arrive , that's my big fear explode my empi 5 here's a links with another info about the five spoke http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,2222.msg28523.html#msg28523 (http://cal-look.no/lounge/index.php/topic,2222.msg28523.html#msg28523) read all the topic rgd fabs Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: Cornpanzer on February 13, 2008, 14:50:24 pm I always questioned that story of the wheel exploding in my mind. No doubt it exploded, but why?
As it was told to me, part of the rim was found imbedded in his neighbors house. It had punctured the eaves and eneded up in the attic as I recall. IMO, it would have taken a mighty amount of pressure to cause that catastrophic of a failure. Much more pressure than you should be applying to any wheel....especially in your home workshop. With that being said, there is no doubt that the Empi 5's are prone too cracking. I remember looking at a really nice car at the DKP meet and noticing that one of the spokes was cracked almost a third of the way around. I mentioned it to the owner when nobody was around and he was shocked. He had just polished the wheels and there was no crack then. I would never race on an old magnesium wheel! Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: Ivan on February 13, 2008, 19:24:42 pm I always questioned that story of the wheel exploding in my mind. No doubt it exploded, but why? As it was told to me, part of the rim was found imbedded in his neighbors house. It had punctured the eaves and eneded up in the attic as I recall. IMO, it would have taken a mighty amount of pressure to cause that catastrophic of a failure. Much more pressure than you should be applying to any wheel....especially in your home workshop. With that being said, there is no doubt that the Empi 5's are prone too cracking. I remember looking at a really nice car at the DKP meet and noticing that one of the spokes was cracked almost a third of the way around. I mentioned it to the owner when nobody was around and he was shocked. He had just polished the wheels and there was no crack then. I would never race on an old magnesium wheel! I would have to agree that it must have taken a lot of pressure to make the wheel explode. I've seen plenty of two-piece EMPIs that have not cracks at all. The wheel I shattered was down to me - not the wheel - I simply did it up too tight. Equally, I have seen original EMPIs on VWs with cracks - I suppose the question is which type are prone to cracking is it just the ribbed ones? I don't know the answer to that question. Anyway, when did they make EMPIs from magnesium? Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: Jim M on February 14, 2008, 00:21:38 am I have run empi 5 spokes of the early and late versions. You have to check them for cracks.I had the earlies on a 63 27 window microbus with a 1776 with no problems.I have owned some earlies with cracks but never ran them.I currently run mag brms with no issues.The bergs put quite a bit of power to theirs!I sold Andy S. a blue split and remember him telling me about the wheel explosion.If i remember correctly {dont quote me} the wheel was unbolted to do a tire change and upon inflating it, there was a problem ??? with it seating the bead i think...Jim
Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: Turtle001 on February 14, 2008, 00:42:04 am been there ... done that ;)
the exploding of my empi 5 spoke almost teared the guys head off -- the top half was crashed into the roof Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: SlingShot on February 14, 2008, 02:32:09 am 95% of the ones I have seen for sale, have cracks, been fixed or are just plain junk. If you do get a set, check them over for cracks, a couple of hair line cracks wont hurt, just use different wheels for racing.
Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: Bruce on February 14, 2008, 07:48:56 am There are 2 very different versions of original EMPI 5s. The difference is in the webbing on the backside. The later ones are a LOT stronger than the early ones. I also believe the late ones use a steel insert for the lug holes.
The question is, are these cracking and exploding wheels noted above, early, late, or both types? I'm willing to bet the majority are the early type. Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: jamiep_jamiep on February 14, 2008, 13:22:21 pm Thanks for all the info guys... thin I'll just keep run my BRM replicas!!!!
Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: deano on February 14, 2008, 16:50:34 pm Just FYI, these original Empi 5-spokes were cracking back in the early '70s.... so it is nothing new to their design and makeup.
Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: John Rayburn on February 14, 2008, 17:09:35 pm I had one of my NON cracked 5's grenade just going down the street at 40 mph.Imagine if that would've happened the night before going down the track at OCIR!
Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: Turtle001 on February 14, 2008, 18:49:13 pm mine were early ones
Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: Ivan on February 14, 2008, 18:51:04 pm I had one of my NON cracked 5's grenade just going down the street at 40 mph.Imagine if that would've happened the night before going down the track at OCIR! I think that says it all John! Equally imagine if it happened as you were pulling hard in fourth on the quarter. :o Not a good thought! Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: dyno don on February 14, 2008, 19:11:19 pm having both the early sets and later i had great luck with both for years...the important issue is running inner liners along with the inner tube...being magnesium they are porus and will leak especially with no bead lock on the outer rim ...you can also silicone the halves and seal the inner material with a good sealer and get ok results if wanting to forgo the tubes...as with early brms/eight spokes/five spokes/etc...they were all fragile and most all ended up being cracked..!! equal torque settings is helpful as well when bolting together ...years ago i had sold a set of empi five spokes to someone in japan who sold them to their customer and they went to install the tires onto the rims with a tire machine and upon the pressure it exploded nearly beheading the innocent owner and ended up getting him over 180 stitches in their head..!! i dont recommend anything under 155/15's ....or tire machines..!!
Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: mg on February 15, 2008, 09:21:11 am been there ... done that ;) the exploding of my empi 5 spoke almost teared the guys head off -- the top half was crashed into the roof Good to hear people warning others of old mag rim failure stories. In the 80s my set of polished 5 spokes cracked. I'd stay away from 40 year old magneseum rims, safer to collect all the other neat old non structural vintage stuff. Crack check your old rims on a regular basis, early detection may prevent a catastrophic failure. I certainly would never advocate trusting a cracked rim. Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: nicolas on February 15, 2008, 10:19:51 am OK so 5 spokes seem to have a explosive history, but what about 8 spokes. i would like to have a set one day with some slicks on them. just 2 with slicks for tracks only, but i am not looking for a set of grenades on the back of the car. i have some with cracks, but only small haircracks. off course they will be repaired before using them. i believe a good welder can make them as strong as before. otherwise welding up heads would be a foolish thing to do as well. Or not?
Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: Jon on February 15, 2008, 10:33:48 am What could be done to minimize the chance of cracking the wheels? Are they perfectly flat against the drum, or should they be "skimmed off" in the mounting surface?
Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: Georg/DFL on February 15, 2008, 11:28:54 am OK so 5 spokes seem to have a explosive history, but what about 8 spokes. i would like to have a set one day with some slicks on them. just 2 with slicks for tracks only, but i am not looking for a set of grenades on the back of the car. i have some with cracks, but only small haircracks. off course they will be repaired before using them. i believe a good welder can make them as strong as before. otherwise welding up heads would be a foolish thing to do as well. Or not? Christian/DFL had original 8 spokes on his car last year at Bug In. When he mounted the wheels there were no cracks, after 40 Kilometers on the road two of them had cracks! So I wouldn't recommend them for racing. Jürgen/DFL has OG Empi 5s for the street and two Enkei 5s with slicks for the strip. You could use the MWS 8 spokes Mk II with the screw on center cap for slicks. New wheels with old looks and save at the same time. Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: nicolas on February 15, 2008, 12:15:14 pm if they look like the original ones i am up for a set of those in the future. first save up some money. and ask around if someone has a second hand set they want to part with.
thank you. but does anyone have a picture of those wheels? sorry to highjack the post a little. but i saw there are 5 spokes as well on their site ;) Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: John Rayburn on February 15, 2008, 18:15:27 pm I had one of my NON cracked 5's grenade just going down the street at 40 mph.Imagine if that would've happened the night before going down the track at OCIR! I think that says it all John! Equally imagine if it happened as you were pulling hard in fourth on the quarter. :o Not a good thought! Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: danny gabbard on February 15, 2008, 18:48:45 pm I have noticed on a nos second gen 5 spoke that I have that the casting was pretty ruff were the half's come together and mate. I had to deburr some edge's so that the two half's would mate . I also have a wheel that I'm useing as spare only, that hit a pole and a curb and wasted the front beam on car and only chipped wheel. Just my two cent's but the first gen 5 spoke's were prone to cracking, split the two halfs on first and second gen wheels and look at the radius in the corner's of were they mate plus the webing, And ya there not the most enginered wheel i've ever seen.
Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: John Rayburn on February 16, 2008, 03:36:00 am I think alot of it is just plain old metal fatigue.
Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: danny gabbard on February 16, 2008, 03:53:24 am what were the liner's that dyno was talking about, and you guyz got me alittle worried after seeing those picture's ,I alway's thought it was the outer's that took the big shit. I got 4 nos 2nd gen wheel's but there not going to be daily driven either
Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: John Rayburn on February 16, 2008, 03:58:54 am How do you like them apples?
Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: danny gabbard on February 16, 2008, 04:03:04 am WHAT....you mean It can't be welded together? fricken scary john, All I know is that shit better not happen to me, I'm praying as we speak, to the empi GOD
Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: danny gabbard on February 16, 2008, 04:05:38 am the few I have welded on the early one's seemed alot more brittle as far as material goe's and it might be my imagination but the early one's seemed to turn more black, like there was some kind of alum-mag alloy
Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: John Rayburn on February 16, 2008, 04:06:46 am You should've seen what it did to the fender.... Real carnage!
Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: John Rayburn on February 16, 2008, 04:08:03 am The lates were just as brittle, like potato chips.
Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: danny gabbard on February 16, 2008, 04:12:15 am any time you cast alum in dirty sand your going to have imperfection in material
Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: horatiocaine on February 16, 2008, 22:05:01 pm I hear they very prone to failure. I had one explode when one of the studs that holds the 2 halves together let loose. It did end up going through my neighbors roof. I got to pay to repair the roof and ceiling. My wheel exploded while mounting a tire. My friend had one grenade ahile driving over some RR tracks, he warned me I did not listen. They make great hose reels
Andy Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: speedwell on February 17, 2008, 15:18:39 pm welcome to the lounge andy hope you will enjoy this place :) pictures of your oval ??? , i love you car when she was on the cover of sept 98 hot vws
rgd fabs Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: horatiocaine on February 17, 2008, 17:47:40 pm Thanks for the kind words. I miss the look of those Empi 5-Spokes. Heres my car recently, dash has changed since '98, and rear rides on 165's now.
Andy Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: Cornpanzer on February 17, 2008, 17:57:35 pm Such a sweet car, that cover is still one of my favorites!
What shows are you working on nowadays Andy? Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: Rennsurfer on February 17, 2008, 18:06:50 pm If any of you get a chance to see this car in person... DO IT. Here's a shot from yesterday.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v18/Sumdumsurfer/Cars/AndysBug0216082.jpg) Incredible attention to detail, everywhere, throughout. Title: Re: Original Empi 5's - how prone to grenading are they? Post by: horatiocaine on February 17, 2008, 18:22:43 pm Been working on Some CSI Miami, Eli Stone and a few movies. Since November I have been working on repaint the inside of the house, thanks to Hollywood Writers who want more money! Gave me a chance to dig out the Oval and start driving it again. It has been neglected for the last 7 years. I was very amazed at the attention the VW's were getting, I go to Autobooks very often on Saturdays and did not think VW's would be that well received with that crowd. I was wrong.
Andy |