The Cal-look Lounge

Considering a few older Porsche high-output engines, specifically:

911S 2.2L: 180hp@ 6500, 84 x 66mm, 320' duration @ .15mm, 82hp/liter (366cc per cyl)
904 (587/3) 2.0L: 185hp @ 7000, 92 x 74mm, 352' duration @ .15mm, 94hp/liter (492cc per cylinder)

Obviously, Porsche saw the need for some generous valve overlap to achieve power, especially, considering the valve timing on the 911S was the same used on the smaller 2.0 6 cylinder. While I've never driven a 904 and never will, I have driven a few early 911's, my most vivid memory was the 2.4 1973 that McKenzie owned for a while. The powerband of that engine was thrilling.

So my question, considering the weight and stock 4.37:1 gearing of a Type 1, and your typical 94mm stroker engine, how would you duplicate the "powerband" of the old 911S or 587 4-cylinder motors? Not that horsepower numbers need to match, meet, exceed, but that the "camminess" and surge above 4000rpm resemble them. With the light weight of the VW, and the relatively "short" gearing of the 4.37 box, AND with the torque made by a 2.2L+ 4 cylinder (550cc per cylinder), a large amount of duration should get the car off idle fairly and give the "rush" above 4000 as well, right? But how much is enough, too much, just right? The Porsche cams were checked @ .006", we check at .050"...
Some sources list 911S cam intake duration @ 267' @ .050".... Engle 130? Of course, the VW motor has much bigger lungs to fill... (550cc vs. 366cc)...

again STREET motor.
ANY thoughts, feedback would be appreciated. Thanks guys,

Jim

What compression were these motors?

What gas was available?

911S and 587/3 (904) both ran 9.8:1

OH BROTHER ::) ::) ::) ::)

yeah hown long have I been whining about THIS huh?

Too bad Engle doesn't have an "FK-904-Carrera-cam-profile-for-Jim's-Bug" grind.  ;D

hahahaha ;D

maybe Ty's uncle can just take the 904 motor out of his lane-painting buggy and give it to me. he still owes me for the kadrons.

Some companies offer custom ground camshafts, right? It would be cool to use some specs from hi-po vw and porsche engines from the past. Inch pincher II, 911s etc..

What cam did they use in the Sport-O-Matic 911s?

funny.   ::)

No ideas from anybody? To get a 2200cc pump gas Vee dub motor to come on @ 4000 and go to 7000?

Run that 86c a few degrees retarded? Sounds like you want something close to an FK-87 or FK-89.

--louis

Jim, the same you advised me... Best Of Both Worlds.

hey please give some more input on the matter guys. i am not an expert, but lately i have found the duallobe cams an interesting option to overcome some of the troubles of long duration cams on the exhaust. so maybe that is a way to go.

Hi Jim,
What you need is:low comp ratio, slow opening and closing cam, short overlap, late intake closing and a big intake port.
This gives you a low dynamic cyl pressure at low rpm and when the rpm is going up VE increases, and at a point when the engine starts to tune there is a sudden rush of power thanks to higher dynamic cyl pressure.
It is actually a very sporty attitude and fun to drive.
Normally you want as much low end torque as possible in a streetdriven car but they often suffer from lack of torque at higher rpm.
I like both attitudes but the "slingshot" attitude at 4000rpm is really something, but it has to be drivable under 4000rpm or it is not worth it.
Regards
Johannes

How about a laggy turbo?  Doesnt wake up till 4k and then zing, all the way to 7000 in an instant!  :D

Seriously, the early 911 engine is a jewel.  Friends of mine who dont understand the "Porsche thing" are shocked by how hard I beat on my 2.2 S.   7200 rpm every shift!  Wheeeeeeeee
The best part is that I can beat on it today, and then hop in and drive cross country in it tomorrow with no worries, spinning 4000 rpm for hours on end. 

Ahhh, I cant wait for spring!

back to this old post..

I did discuss all this (after shopping for valve springs) with Pauter and yes they did me a nice cam... we'll see how it works, hopefully later this year. R6E8 grind.

Jim, is that a custom grind. I do not see that cam listed here http://www.actionimport.com/Tech_Files/cam_information.htm I printed that list out and keep it in a drawer for reference. Good stuff!

Do you plan on putting that cam in your current motor? 2165, right? Break out the cam card for both motors and do a comparison. Come on buddy, don't hold out on us. ;D

it's 272 deg @ .050 and 304 deg at seat.

Pauter has something about 100 cam grinds . Ask them for your application .

Udo

Jim you're talking about my old 78.4 X 94 . W130 and Jeff's super whammy nonwelded 44X 37.5, and 48 Dellortos.

Also, you're a homo for this Porsche talk... You're liable to summon a certain Porsche Gorgon. Also, my brother's old 74X 90  W110 and 10.5 to 1 acted like your talking.

so I have this Stuttgart skirt......    :o

You're askin' for it!!!!

 :-*

What i was thinking when i was reading your post..
didnt you have this cammyness with your 86 c?
or was it still different?

cheers, Peter

The 86C is an amazing cam, but not cammy, at least in my car. I'm still toying with the 86C but with as many miles as I run my car, the extreme lift has me reluctant.

How your heads flow and venturie size has a big effect on the "camminess". The 86C in my combination isn't the least bit cammy.

how does it drive then John?
is it more linear or something?

Yes, the power seems to be there full time , kind of like injection. You just put your foot in it at any given RPM or gear and it just goes. No bog , no stumble, no " coming on". It's just there.

I ran the 86c in my 2276cc with same heads I have on my 2165... the Lonnie Reed look-a-like welded Denham 44 x 37 heads, with 48IDAs, 9.3:1, and Scat 1.4 (1.5) rockers.... dialed lift was damn near .600" at valve. The car was NOT cammy, as those that drove that car around besides me can attest (hi sheep, SODA and kafercup). It would just MOVE when you stepped on gas, even off idle. I remember picking Sheep up for work one day and we were getting on freeway onramp. I was cruising under 3000 in 2nd gear, stomped it and sent the ass end of car sideways in a haze of smoke and Sheep was dying laughing, he was saying "Dude, you've made this car so fucking fast you can't even control it any more"
This was also the cam that was in my car that took all the color out of my ex-boss' face when he drove the car (Jerry) and also the cam the earned the compliment of "this car feels like it is going to rip the seat rails off of the pan."

I love the 86C, and if I lived closer to OC and didn't drive the wheels off my car, I'd run it. But since I put around 8000 miles a year on my car, I want to keep lift conservative, hence the Pauter cam with 1.25's. For what it is worth, I did run the 86C with 1.25 for ONE week and it didn't have any bark to it, I personally think the 86C needs 1.4's + to make it scream.

HAHAHa this makes me laugh :)
good story

anybody watch GT Racer on HD theater channel lately?
if you have heard some of these sports prototype motors at high rpm, you know what I'm getting at.

More talk on this subject?

The more I read about the 904 the more I like it...oddly enough I havent' been able to find the valve size specs for it...google actually directed my to this same topic, go figure! anyone know the valve sizes for the last 4-cam iteration?

Inlet valve = 49mm
Exhaust valve = 43mm
 :)

That's one heavy breathing two liter.

you should see cam profiles.....

Go on...

Big lift with 42 x 37 valves in my 2332 is part of the reason my engine makes the power it does. A top fuel racer friend of Steve's was surprised how much cam is in it when he checked out the car. You can see the lift for yourself in this vid... https://youtu.be/xX3iaHUI-SA

ok, a little input from my experience on sportomatic 911's and cam changes. Living with roger grago at the time when he had his first auborgine 70 911t with 40m/m webers. I wanted to go the 911 life. Mark Thurber was just finishing his red 1972 911 Carrera look. I liked. I wanted one, so sold the  63 aronson / holmes  white car and bought a 1972 911t 2.4, (first year t with mfi). (Both same price  $4k !!!) Car was a sportomatic . Was a fair at best respray white, originally condor green (??)  stock hp was 140 for my car. Also mfi t's where yellow fanshroud, e's green, s red. 1973.5 and later t's where cis injection. Raced against rogers 2.2 , he had me till about 45, then I pulled away. The sportomatic was tricky to drive, but learned to get your hand of the shifter asap. 2.2 to 2.4 was bigger due to stroke. WE then pulled my car apart and I turned it into a 210 h.p.  2.7 euro Carrera spec motor. bigger 90 mm bore,  Sent heads for bigger valves etc to ollies and injection pump to farchild in san francisco for new pump cam and updates.  Porsche specialist Wayne Witten in santa ana built the motor. Wayne came from porsche dealer and had experience tuning the iroc 2.7 911's. I also put a manual trans in it. Repainted it in grand prix white with the new just out there black powder coating trim. I had an early set of the early 7 inch fuchs in the rear,  RARE, Now on the front of rogers 911..... sorry, back to rpm, cam choice. I don't know cam specs, but 2.4 t was done pulling around 5800. The 2.7 was crisp to 6800, 7k, still had good trq down low. ( stroke ?). In paris/dakir style races I believe porsche used sportomatics. They even had sportomatics in 914 sixes. What a difference in car  rpm changes, just ask my insurance company. After to many run ins with the law I sold car for 18k thinking I got the world for it. (through dyno don of course.)  I can't believe the price of the long hood 911's (-73)!! .  As far as vw cams in a 2276cc, 4 speed, pump gas, I would lean to a web 86 b or maybe fk44 spec at most. Jim,  I like/respect your cam thoughts, sounds like your pushing towards more air speed and drivability cam choices ??.   sorry for ramble.  But, as just getting home from orange county road trip with 2 large coffees still in me. Also remembering the ride in clyde bergs daughter's street black 65 vw with his old fk 89 race motor, now on e85. CRAP , That is some e ticket ride. He has a real cool kinda safe (lol) test drive loop.. He said low 11's if it hooked up. FUN  ok, everyone go ask for a ride.... Cam choices ?...GO BIG  take care,  bill

later thoughts... sorry as I think I rambled on this car/motor before. Back to rpm range, I remembering reving  the 2.7 high to 6800 or so, a bit past its peak pull, but matched up to the next gear change better as I had a 4 speed 901 trans in it. Hot vw's are still a favorite, but the early 911's can really rock. Sometimes there's a corner ahead....To bad they are stupid priced now.   

49mm valves on a 92mm bore....canted valves and OHC would definitely make our lives easier...but then we like challenges I guess  ;D

I recall reading somewhere that Porsche tested 48 IDAs on the 904 and they considered them too big so they stuck with the 46s...I wonder what they'd think of us using them on even smaller engines!