The Cal-look Lounge

the '1700'(69x88) and '1800'(74x88) engine seemed to be the mainstream engine in the 70's and early 80's (later the 88 pistons were swapped for 90.5), and i was thinking that it would be great to have some engines featured of those days. some specs, and impressions.
they were nice little selfbuild and a lot of fun, or not? i read stories about dailydriven cars with these engines in them and still make good tracktimes.(dave rhoads first engine, the rags to ripper report,bill schwimmers pepto and ragtop,...) although for me tracktimes are not the most important, but more the kick  that you could get out of these.
i know you build one, so tell me more about them.  ;D

Funny !
I speaked about with Jim other day in him shower !!  8)  ;D  :D

Too early for me, I will build a 1679cc engin when I finish body paint in my 67 ...
So I will post on this topic just after that !
waiting,  I read with pleasure Yours experiences about this 'original' engin !

 ;D ;D ;D
65% with me .. hum hum ..  ;D

My progression went from 1500 w/ Zenith 32 NDIX to 1600 w/ Zenith 32 NDIX both with single ports and Engle 110 cam.  Next up, was an 1800 w/ Holly 300cfm Bug Spray and Engle 125 which suffered a broken (cast) crank after a short time.  Then, back to 1700cc w/ 300cfm Bug Spray and Engle 125 + close ratio gears (this was a bad combo as it was with single port heads...big time popping through the intake at 3800-4000rpm from too much cam overlap).  The next step was to add dual port heads ported by Ron Fleming and some Solex 40P11-4 carbs which got rid of the overlap problem and woke up the 125.  At the end of all the experimentation, I finally got some IDA's... ;D  

Candy ass!  ;D

My 67 started with a stock 1500 SP. I decided that I wanted to put Kadronuts on it. Well I dropped a washer down the intake and of course the intake valve was open. So I had to break the motor down. When it went back together, it was a 1641cc with ported SP heads, 009, Engle 110 full flow and the Kadronuts.

About a year later I ran across a deal that I couldn't pass up on some 48s so I had to put together a motor to use them. Same "H" case with a forged cw crank, VZ35 (might have been a 30) carillo rods, 010, Cima 90.5 ported dp heads and skat trak tall manifolds holding the 48s amd a fortuned 1 3/8 merged head with custom muffler.

And it was my daily driver!

I can really relate to this thread, as I drove one of these combos for years; 1700cc, Engle 110, big intake valves, IDAs, 9.5:1 compression, 1-1/2 Berg exhaust, 010, etc. I just remembered that they did not offer 88Bs back then (at least by Kolbensmitty), so if you added a longer arm, which I did later on, it was spacer city. My 1835cc made more torque, but burned more oil. Imagine that? We called 88s.... skatey-eights.

Why did you take it apart Rick Hell I would have started up and gave it a 7000 Grand Rev or two and Blow it right out the Exhaust LMAO  it was only a 1500 single port? ;D ;D

Would've needed rebuilding one way or the other!  ;)

to this very day...for me one of the sweetest running 1700's  was the aronson/holmes  white ragtop engine...it was abused beyond normal conditions and neglected by the time  i had a chance to tune it/upon a fresh tune that thing ran like a bat out of hell...same combo as deano's engine/simple ...old school ...and just kept on running....

Yes in the 70's i had a 69mm roller crank x 88mm ks - ported and big valve heads by R&R in napa - ran a single 48ida carb - that little motor was a screamer - cant remember what cam was in it right now - what a good running motor - wish i still had it - blown rod out the top of the case ended it.

My first engine I built was a 40horse with an 83mm "big bore" kit from Autohaus,with [counterbored by rimco]1500 sp heads,engle 110 cam,010 dizzy,300cfm holley bugspray with "custom shortened" isolated tube manifold,with an 4 bolt empi exhaust.
next came a 1700[69x88]engle 110,IDAs with stock dual port heads,just plunged the heads 0.100thou and it was good to go[picture number 18],then progressed to a 74x88 with an engle 125,same heads,deano pulley,IDAS again with S&S header with single glass pack [picture 2 & picture 12]

Then finally the current 82x88 motor :)  picture 13

Dave Rhoads

And i drove this everywhere,it was my only car until at least 1980,up to Northern California[Hayward,were i was born] and regularly San diego with all these engines whatever the compression was ;)

dave...you have always done bitchin engines that make horsepower and live..!!!

     I just found this past weekend a set of EMPI 88 all aluminum barrels and pistons I had stashed away when I worked for Steve Tims. I have way to much junk laying around.

     Frenchy

Sell them to me Frenchy. You know they will go to a good cause.

same for me frenchy, i would love to take some of that stuff so you can overlook it all and not have to worry were you put all your stuff. just send a big container to belgium...  ;D

what parts were the options for building these engines? i think 010 and 019 were common but when did the 009 come into play and i see powerpulley's. but on most engines today they are not run. but climatewise i think california is a one of the of the regions that could benefit most of the extra cooling of a stocksized pulley... did you use extra coolers, bigger oilpumps, ...

nicolas, put a 010 in engin ( or 019 ) but a 009  :-X

I have a engle 110 and engle 120 ( with rockets 1.25 ) , why everybody used engle 110 ???
I think engle 120 is better but read everybody used engle 110 ...  :-\

I following this post with big interest, thank's nicolas to open this one !  :-*

well i ditched my 009 as well, but it seems that a lot of people ran the 009 insted of the 010 or 019. i know dave rhoads has one (009) and i also can run the 009 wth the red coil and a compufire without the balast resistor... just trying out different stuff. the 019 works great on a 1641.

 

just off  topic   ::) dave what the size of the front tyre used on those empi 5 ???
rgd
fabs

this pic is one of the best ever!!
i'm totally in love with it ;D

hi Fabian,they were 165/15s from Uniroyal

Dave Rhoads

Wow, that sounds larger than it looks!!
Were those the tyres you used on the empi 5s in the first stage?
And what did you use in the back? 185R15?

Hi Nicolas: I ran the 010 early on because the 009's weren't out yet. Always had good luck with both. Always ran points!!!    Dave Rhoads

thanks

i have heard that points can work as good as the petronics or compufire and even have the benefit to be 'dialled in' better. as the gap will retard or accelerate the timing as well. i had to ask as i see that your car runs a 009 for a long time now and a 009 is still available,but 010's and 019 are getting very expensive and hard to find.

thanks for the great pics and comments.

regards

Frenchy, which P & C EMPI 88's?  Just curious.  ;)

Mahalo (thanks), Frank
Castagnetti Ohana Racing
Honolulu and Hilo

Nice topic,reminds me of my first 1700cc engine. ;D

My 1990 callook engine was # 3 in a row of a learning curve ::) 1680 cc. Ported stock valve cylinderheads with the usual improvements, 9 - 1 CR. Camshaft was a 294 ish, made by a local cam grinder. Agressive ramps and lots of torque, but a little rough on the valve train. Ignition was a modified stock 205 unit with Alfa Romeo points. Carbs were a set of very rare Weber 38 DCN. Exhaust a 1½" S&S dual quiet pack (Great sound btw) 106 hp @ 5500 rpm.
Gave me lots of fun.
T

Back in the "day" a lot of 1700cc were built in and around the Fleming & Aronson camp. At that time, the one that sticks out the most was bullt by Mike Billings, who put together a 1700cc with an Engle 125, 10:0 compression, Fleming heads, 48IDAs and 1-1/2 merged collector. That engine on F&A's dyno, no fan belt or stinger made 128hp, compared to mine at 122hp and several others in the 120-125hp range.

wow, a 1700 with a w125 cam.
that must be pretty high strung, right? a bear to drive on the streets i suppose ;)

Hi
Do you know which size of vents were in the 48 IDAs with stock valves (35,5x32) heads...? 37mm or smaller? Because i am thinking about to jet with 37 vents or is it better to go with smaller sized vents..my engine is 1955ccm (90,5x76)with good flow ported stock valved heads, 9,3:1 compression, German cam (324°)..125 HP 6100 upm....

Thanks
Bye
Tom

Not really. With good heads they pull surprisingly good, also in the lower rpms. I have done a couple with a C45 cam though along with 1,25 rockers. They typicaly pull just low of 120 hp @6 grand. The last fast mouse motor I built was a 1745cc. (I know, more stroke.) ported 043 cylinderheads 40/35 valves, 9,5 - 1 cr, C45 w. 1,3 rockers, 40 Dells, Unilite ignition and a 1½" mergeheader. It made 127 hp @ 6000 rpm and a whopping 176NM torque peaking at 3800 rpm - A blast to drive. I will say though, that it is kinda hard to stay at the speed limit because it REALLY likes to cruise between 3700 and 4500 rpm.
Though it likes rpm it is not high strung. You can short shift it if you want, but you dont ;D
T
PS. The term "fast" may sound a bit beat up in comparison to say JPM´s 196 hp 1600.  On the other hand, this is a street motor that is supposed to have a long life.

nice one!
sounds good torben!

Really interesting post !

Nobody have experience with 42dcnf ? I will build a 1679cc with 42dcnf and every config are about IDA !!  ::)

Thank's to continue to write yours experiences ... that's really good ! ;D

42dcnfs rock!  On the third Gene Berg Cruise Steve Hollingsworth drove his car with a 1600 and dual 42s on it.  It drove great.  They are so smooth without flat spots and you can get pretty good gas mileage with them.  DCNFs are the only duals I have ever run.  I have a set of 42s and a set of 44s.

    Hi Frank

     The 88's are the all aluminum EMPI marked on the edges of the cylinders (slipper skits ) I remember a few years back some of us had visited Eric Ballard shop in Riverside and he had a wall stacked up with the same style EMPI cylinders new in the box.

Take care
 Frenchy

Eric still has a good hoard there :)   now wether he would actually sell them is another question???????????

cheers richie,uk

Supposedly they are for sale at $2k a set...

What about the old Norris cams?  Or Dial in Cams?  I remember seeing those back in the day.

Hi Frenchy,

Thanks for the information, I thought as much...what a great "find!" :D

Aloha, F

UP! just to help out Fabs and it has some really cool pics of Daves car in it!

thx  ;)

wow i missed this thread haha

awesome read (though short.. wish there was more discush on it)

im doing a

88x69  and a
88x74

 :D

deano, could have that 1700 been kieth goss's? I remember when the story was his 1700 was against guy newhouses' 1700 and kieths made 5 more hp.Both worked at fat,speaking of 1700's/1776. I was racing the sonic muffin in seattle with doug berg's 1776 k10, (pump gas)when I broke a hockey stick and clyde broke his 2.0 litre motor in his orange car. We (ha-ha)put the 1776 in clydes car. I ran it (did a nice wheelie)with the 1776 and ran 12 .60 and clyde ran it with a 12.30.That's a nice 1776. Dyno was right on the aronson/holmes 1700. It was my only car and ran great with bigger intakes and stock exh. valves/110cam.. Sold it as dyno got envolved it, poor service as cristi let the car slide downhill as alot of people "touched it" for service.BUT ... WHERE is that car ??? bill

Yep, I forgot all about Guy Newhouse. It was Guy and Keith who built the other two 1700cc that ran good on F&A dyno, not Mike Billings..

If I recall correctly the Newhouse/Goss era at FAT preceded Billings and me. The last I heard of Guy Newhouse he had gone to Nissan (corp), one sharp cookie.
Also in that time frame (75?) Guy built a 1700 with 911 heads as a proof of concept, good for 170 hp. I was just a customer of Ron & Greg at the time, so a lot went on that I'm not aware of.  ;)

OOPS!!!!   Sorry Fabin,  they were 155/15s from Uniroyal.   Sorry took so long to catch the mistake.  Just looked at this topic coming back to the top and noticed it.    Dave Rhoads

thanks for helping out.  ;) (even after a year  ;D)

so why did nobody step up to a W120, but went for a W125 insted? 

Guy is still alive and well... heard from him a few months ago.

and why havent you told him to get here yet?  ;D

juz playin!


but honestly.. it would be cool i he was around to post..

must have more  stories for us newbs (i think only me haha the newb)  to delv on to

trying to get a cool topic back up here :)
how about the head work on the 1700/w110 engines?
i suppose smallish ports aiming for high velocity? i'm referring to making 35/32 heads work ;D

About 30 years back we had a 1700 in an old FV racecar. 40mm intakes, stock ex valves, round ports, 110 cam, 48's /32 mm vents. It made a 100 hp. on pump gas, very tractable and a lot of fun in a 950 lb. car. As a side note we ran 356B rear brakes and Carrera fronts......"more whoa than go".  :D

My hot 1700cc engine had:
69 cw crank from bugpack
40x35.5 bugpack p%p heads
w120 cam
12 lbs flywheel
Kennedy stage 1 clutch
40mm dells and ran like hell.
Heads had rondports
After that i switched to IDA's and it was a beast.

After that i went to a 1914cc engine with same haeds etc only a w125 cam,killer engine

I agree 110%.  I had terriffic luck with a set of 44 DCNF's with 36mm vents on a pretty hot 1776cc.  I regret selling those carbs.  Mileage in the 32 to 36 mpg was pretty typical on the highway.  And the unique sound they make is awesome!!!

In 79 (senior in high school) and 80 in my 56, I ran a cleaned up, super glossy black painted tin, 1641 single relief case, stock heads partially hand polished, no cam and an external oil cooler mounted above the trans (with slightly leaky hoses), with a big ol slice of Solex 40P11's with those enormously tall velocity stacks.  Can you say...................Baaaaaaawg.   Loved the look of those 40P11's.  They were DEFINATELY the poor mans 48's.  Looked (almost) as big or bigger with those stacks.............. hah

Holly Bug Spray eh Sarge?  Those were as much trouble as a mother in law for a next door neighbor.....

Oh I forgot to mention that I ran a big ol traction bar hanging low and solid motor/trans mounts.  Woo hoo.... Too funny how hard that little motor was bolted in.  Ridiculous actually.  You HAD to have a traction bar underneath so everyone would think you had a big motor.  funny
Any one ever hit a big bump and knock one of those suckers right off the bottom of the case?  You'd pull over, look underneath and it's hangin' like a tire swing.  Shrug shoulders... unhook the rods and throw it in the back seat.  Now THOSE were the days.  Now why are'nt you nostalgia guys running traction bars more often?  We made em ourselves out of square tube angle iron.

Why do so many want their rides to be like the "old" days?  Nostalgia is awesome but why when you can pull the wheels off the ground with new stuff?  Hah

I really like small stroke (or 69mm stroke) motors. While it was not my first motor, my 1700 was one of the most fun and reliable motors I had built. It had an Engle 110 cam, 40mm x 35mm valve heads (home modified ports), deep sump, 69mm counterweighted crank, lightened flywheel and balanced engine assembly, full flow case, stock rockers with swivel feet, chromoly push rods, a centrifugal advance distributor we found from an early VW (#BRS 383) with a cap that the wires came out of the side, and a set of dual 44 webers.  I did not want to run IDAs on this motor at the time.  I ran a heavy duty bus pressure plate (200mm). It had an 1 1/2" merged exhaust and single quiet pack style muffler.  I ran NGK plugs in it.

It was incredibly smooth and reliable, great on road trip mileage too.  I included a shot of the motor below. It was in my white 67 my wife and I built as newlyweds in the mid 70's.

Rick Mortensen

thats a sweet pic, even nicer knowing  u guys built it as newlyweds,


so this a 88x69 ?  awesome!!

one of my motors to be assembled will be  an 88x69 with a similar grind to 110

Yeah...My wife was not much of a car person but supported me regardless.  She has been a solid support for 34 years now. It was a 69 x 88 motor with the 110. Was a great combination. I toyed with going to a 120 Engle but the 110 worked so well for driveability and bottom end response that I never went bigger.  I bracket raced it occassionally.  It was a 7.8 to one motor that I could run on pump gas.  Of course pump gas in 1976-77 was a little better quality and octane.

Rick Mortensen

any 1/4 e.t.s on it?

sure sounds like a peppy motor!

It was not that fast. I had stock gears in my trans with a 4.12 R&P for street driving. So, it was not killer fast.  The best I ever cranked out of it was a 15.65.  Take into consideration it was a full interior too. I did not build it to be fast...just to be a good freeway driver. With more compression, cam and 48s, obviously the motor would have come alive.

Rick M

Soo funny,
this Post was open 2 years before, and today I will start my news engin !
Just finish to open yesterday !

(http://blogsimages.skynet.be/images_v2/002/510/702/20100227/dyn008_original_640_480_pjpeg_2510702_634caf7c9143755035ddbb45e5c633d7.jpg)

Btw, the config will be =
1641cc + 42 dcnf + engle 120 + rockets 1.25 + 041 ...etc.
when I read the start of this topic, I want do 1679cc ( so thas always a small one ! ) ::)

15.6 isnt  to be laughed at!   with a w110  thats niceee

u do know, alot of newer cars today in stock form juz do high 15s and 16s ?  thats not bad..

i think i should challenge myself and tell myself to expect 15.7s  on mine hehe

Yup! Good analogy!! :D

Been there, done that... :D

When I bought my car from Gary Reid in the early 70s, it had a 1700, 110 cam, S&S SINGLE port heads, 11 to 1, and a Holly Bug Spray (what a stupid name).  That thing was amazing! The car ran in the 15s and was a great street racer....just open the hood, wait for the suckers to laugh at your single port heads, race them and take their money.
I wish I had held onto that motor, but I wanted 48s so changed out the motor with an 1835, 130 cam, Webers, etc. (162 hp on Dean Lowry's dyno and ran a best of 13.62).....quicker but didn't have the shock value of the 1700.

Marc
DRA

8)

fast "small" motors... aren't they the best? My old friend, Safetyshoe, ran high compression 40 x 35, Engle 120 90.5 x 69, did 13.00's with it on MH's in his '66.

Apologies for pulling up an old thread, I’m parts collecting at present to build a 1679 from the AE code twin port I already have in my Ghia.
Intending to flow the stock heads and use the Kadrons I already run however I’m stating to think the engle 120 I picked up recently might not be suited?
Would the 110 be a safer bet for drivability given the head/carb set up?

This engine idea was what I ordered from Berg kit in the 90s. I went with their recommendation for the 100 cam when I decided porting and Weber’s were too expensive for me. It was the classic semi hemi 7:1 bulletproof 1776.
The motor came apart shortly after that.
This time I came up with I think maybe $800 or $1000 US for the porting.(90s dollars)
No other changes except the cam which became a 110 with the extra rpm range.
Really fun motor and sounded great thru the quiet pack revving over 6k easily..
I still have all the parts stored except the case which is in my car.