The Cal-look Lounge

We've talked about your the fast ETs in the 70ies before.
The Aronson/Holmes '63 running running low 13s with a 1679cc.
Sarge set quick times(13s too?) with his 1835cc.

It may have had a lot to do with the tyres (165R15 and 185R15) you ran, I suppose. But no matter what, how did you pull this off?

I'm guessing a lot has to do with how you launch!!
Anyway, I'm hoping to do my first few 1/4 mile attempts this summer with my yet-to-be-build 1915cc  ;D  And besides being intrigued by the fast ETs you guys ran, I can use some advice too. Like, how NOT to break my box... :D ...even though I run 205s for now

So... the floor is yours  ;)

Most important to use your hand brake to "load" the gearbox before blasting off the line (let the clutch out a bit while your staged with the hand brake pulled up a bit and your thumb holding down the button...you'll feel the car pull down in back).  Running 165 X 15's, I remember 20lbs of air pressure and coming off the line about 5000 rpm, seeing the tach jump to 7000 (tire spin) then lowering a few hundred rpm (grab) before climbing back to 7000 and the shift to second gear.  I know those 205/70's look cool and all, but I feel you'd be more prone to trans breakage with your engine size running big tires.  Just my $.02...there are lots of other opinions here, I'm sure!  Good luck ;)

oooh very interesting thread.

I have been down the strip twice only! I sucked!!! I did preload the gearbox but I was all over the place.

Best ET  - 13.88sec 96mph, felt like the car stood still in 1st and 2nd!


bring on the advice for us newbies!! rpm etc :)

my car should do 12s . . . apparently!  ;D

Loading the gearbox?!! Never of that, but I definitely will do that!!! Thanks Sarge! ;D


Totally agree, they looks "alright" but I'd rather run like 185/70 or the 165s I donated to my brother  ;)  ;D
I suggest I'm gonna burn the thread off of these this summer and then we'll see what tyres to choose next.
;)

Still, with regard to the 205s. At what rpm should I launch to be quick and still safe?
Cos if you wouldn't even have told me this, I would just take off at 1,500... just to be safe etc.

good and correct info by sarge(as always)....  if wanting to run a large tire /a stock weight flywheel will help the launch along with rpms above 3500 rpm...with a lightened fly the large tire tends to lead to poor launch unless you naill the throttle and hope you dont fall flat on your face...unless of course your talking more than 120 horsepower ...it seems ive seen a trend with large tire combos and drivers complaining about how soggy their car is upon launching and or lack of bottom end...especially with 3:88 ring and pinions...old school was always 4:37 for the best of both worlds...a friend of mine just bought a SWEET 65 with 150 horse with a 4:37 and stock gears that runs mid 13's all day long and is fun as heck to drive...165/15 in the rear however with a larger tire it would be not so fun to drive from stop light to stop light..but would enhance the overall driveability on the highway..and one must remember that when you run a larger tire with a stock gear ratio the cooling fan will turn slower possibly rendering your engine for problems down the road...combos are very important as too what cam/compression/weight of car/rear tire etc....this is a great subject and often overlooked or misunderstood...

COMBO...the key and often overlooked word!  The car I did all my racing in had a 4:37 ring and pinion, too.  Coupled with short tires, the car launched pretty damn good.  I had some of the first close ratio gears back then, too and the car would go through the lights at close to 7000 rpm.  The 27 mile drive on the freeway to the track was hell...60mph = 4000rpm and intense noise (lack of headlinner and upholstery ::)).  I spent time with the combo on the sandrail, too....started with a light flywheel like everyone says to do.  Then, I bumped into somebody who suggested the car would launch better with a heavy (almost stock weight) flywheel...BIG improvement.  Bottom line here is don't be afraid to work with what you've got...spend some time "refining" your combo before moving on to something bigger or better. ;)

Old guys seen launching earlier today!!!!!
















(http://www.ablecare.co.uk/graphics/stairlift/stairlift3.jpg)

Sorry I couldn't resist  ;D

I love my 4.37 R/P.

But I have heard of and experienced the ol' crunch-a-rama too. But in my case, it was bound to happen, as I was
1. learning to launch car on MH slicks (Larry and I nicknamed them Slicks of Doom)
2. Never could get the feel right with the ebrake thing
3. the said tranny was actually lent to me (hence Murphy's law)
4. aren't we all a bit viscous when we get in the staging lanes?  ::)

I'd love to get some 185's under my rear fenders on my '67 and get a little more "slide" under it, like when I ran my P3's

a topic for another post though....  great adivce and a great question from Dieds!  :)

PS....everybody asks "how did those small cc hippy guys from the 70's run so fast back then?"  ;D

how much do you wan to bet that if they stuffed some big 205/70 steamrollers under there that they would have bogged down and netted 15 sec e.t.'s?

So, I'm definitely learning things here.
Apart from needing another gearbox than my 1500 semi-long (love the 4th gear though), I need smaller rear tyres, and a not so light flywheel...
I love the sound of a light flywheel. And believe it or not, I often hear my yet-to-be-build engine rev, when I'm cycling to uni (like a true dutchman). But well, if I can reap the benefits of a heavier flywheel than I will.

What weight would you suggest? I often read 5.5lbs...

:D  :D  :D 

Great information. Interesting thoughts on the flywheel weight and tire size.

--louis

Think it was low 14's...

Cool topic though!

I think a big part of it was that alot of these guys drove their car every day... and they drove the snot out of it! More seat time equals a quicker ET, weather you are on a racetrack or not. Just getting to know your car...

Edit: my old '67 with a 1600 ran 14.8's.... with 205/70's and a 4.12, 3.80, 2.06, 1.48, 1.04. But I drove it every damn day, and HARD! :)

Never Needed Big Tires Back Then Most Guys Ran a 4:37 trans with a 1:58 3rd and 1:21  4th Running those 1679 motors threw the lights @ 7000 in 4th with a W 120 Engle and 40x35 round port non Welded Heads topped with a pair of IDA's and a Singe Qp Muffler Like Dyno Said From Light to light they are a Blast  and Ran low to mid 13's all day long  as far as Pre Loading with the E Brake I drilled an 1/8 hole threw the top of the E brake hande and button and used a small Pin in the hole to keep the button pushed in during Racing, I have Seen A Lot of Guys  Pulling up the E Brake at the Line  the Tree Comes Down  And The E Brake is On so much for cutting a good light ;D ;D

been there done that.... killing a good light leaving handbrake on!! ;D ::)
or there was the time I left the tree in THIRD GEAR 

also for pre loading I use a small piece of duct tape to keep the button depressed at the track.

so . . .

and I may embarrass myself here but . . .

what is a line lock for, apart from burnouts?!


. . . talk about all the gear and no idea ;)

 :D :D :D :D

burnouts and burnouts

but they are not a staging brake as the linelock is locking the front tires.

i have to get into that preloading thing, but from my first and only experience it is a all very confusing the first times. i was so excited that i didn't know what to do first, all the otherwise easy and normal things all felt weird. i was so nervous. but the best thing ever, that is why i want a better engine and can play some more with it as i am hooked.

on transmissions: i run a 4.12 standard trans and that works OK for a car that doesn't go over 5500 rpm. it is only a big gap between 2nd and 3th and the 4th is never used. i had to shift right on the 1/4 mile mark to 4th gear. but close ratios would be better for dragracing. but it is fun enough with 3 at the moment. that is all in a heavy type3 with a 1641 engine. it ran 17's but could do better with a better driver...  ::)
anyway i am thinking of getting a 4.37 trans and a diff and add to that a torquey 1776 and things must improve a bit. of course highwaycruising will suffer, but i drive like an old man on the streets where others are. you know the whole safety issue...
and i have 165 tires and they work great. got to perform a burnout and they grip enough for a smaller engine. plus they are small enough to accelerate faster as the bigger 215/65 tires.

right now i hope i can get all the work done before 20th of april to cruise the bugtour or otherwise EBI2.

nobody want a pair of 215/65 tyres  ::) ::) ::).................................. ;D ;D ;D

Speedwell, you must have some pics of a young, tough Sarge racing his '63 somewhere right? Where they at, bro? ;D

sure here we go  ;D ;D

Looks like another 19 second pass to me ::) ;D

Dig the two guys sitting on the railing!  Ah, they're safe, only Volkswagens racing...

Died with the combo you're going to build and the amount of hp you're expecting you can run with a lightened flywheel i bet.
I would go with a smaller diameter tire like the 185/195 and put a superdiff at least in your box if you wanna launch good.

Otherwise on the 12th of april at you dvk meeting i can give you some pointers of how i do it 8)

sorry to get off topic, but Sheep ran a motor very similar to what Dieds will be running.....really bad tempered 1914 that kept within a fender of my 2276 out on our private 1/4 mile. Anyway, Sheep ran 185 radials, stock height rear axle, with Z bar, and a Crown 6lb aluminum flywheel. Sheep's car didn't bog down when he dropped the hammer, it would spin the tires and then extend front shocks up.

He never broke his 'box?
So, how heavy should my flywheel be, ideally?

I'd use 12.5lb

No sheep had a built trans in his red rider.

2x that Died and superdiff your box 8)

yeah, but when you run a superdiff, don't you also have to run HD side covers? etc etc.

nope.... you don't have to

Like Jim said Died,not necessarily. 8)

Mmh, sounds interesting. :)
Still, I have no idea how to swap a diff! I'm afraid I'll have to outsource it...

Its like brushing your teeth Died,haha
Only thing is when you buy a superdiff it comes with 2 spider gears and you need 4 so need to look for 2.
There is one for sale on the keversite for 150 euros including all 4 spider gears.

Takes some work to install it but its pretty straight forward ;D

Wow this is a great thread for us rookies!

I never knew tire size was as critical, I always thought the wider the better for traction!

So I presume the trouble with bigger tyres is the width of the tread pattern giving you too much grip? Or is it also to do with the overall height of the tire? Say what would happen if you ran a non cal look tire that was 205 but a low profile like a 45?

Cheers,
Rob.

Great thread! 

As I remember back to my early passes down OCIR I don't remember the track surface being "treated" like tracks are today.  I don't think they had special tractors with sprayers running a patch of VHT down the lanes, did they?

I "grew up" on the e-brake preloading approach and used it successfully to run 12's and not break gearboxes or CV's.  Everyone now seems to have moved to linelok's combined with 2-steps.  So to keep up with the Jones's I did this too.  It was a hard transition to go from "preload and rev" to "mat it and release the switch."   ;)

I have a few slow 60 ft times due to not releasing the button.  DOH! :o ::)

our little low dollar '66 drag sedan had line lock.
SODA sheared teeth off 4.37 ring gear after about 4 passes

we showed ring gear to Jim K at Der Trans and he knew instantly "using linelock huh?"

I run with a line lock and never had problems with it,also preloaded the car.

In the pro stocker there is a 2stepline locker.
@prowagon i think it has to do with the tire height rather then width.Width is traction 8)

So if you ran a wide but low profile tire this would be the same as running a 165/185 but you would have better traction surely?

Rob.

yeah, so i guess what you're asking is... width or height? do we want a 165 tyre cos of its width or the 2cm it is shorter?

prowagen in some way yes,only you have to look at your hp output too.
Dont expet a 1679 to run 12 inch wide slicks and launch like the space shuttle ;D

Its a combo you have to try,there is no fast rule of that tire width and height will work for that hp 8)

Super interesting thread!
The COMBO, thats a magical thing, and so hard to figure out on your own...

But there are a couple of things I'm a bit uncertain about after reading this thread...
Sarge talks about narrow tires to prevent breakages in his first post... then it sort of drifts over to the width of the tires, but aren't you really talking about the weight of the rotating mass, it seems like it, as flywheels comes into play?
hmmm
Narrow tires saves gearboxes
Lighter wheels helps acceleration
Heavy flywheel helps getting heavy car moving
Spinning wheels compensates for a too "tall" gearbox (or to weak engine ;))

uhh or something... it's getting late :)

I'm no scientist but it all depends on alot of factors,i do as i'm told from guys who already have years of racing under their belt.

The combo of your engine
combo of your gearbox
tires
weight of the car
condition of the strip,concrete in the launch part,traction compound etc
 etc 8)

Guys, I don't want this thread to die as I NEED TO LEARN!!!

So, the smaller tyres, is if for the shorter side wall height or for the lower width? I appreciate that nowdays most people are running larger motors than back in the day, and so are a little less likeley to bog - so what would be a good compromise tyre size taking into account all of the above, trying to optimise tread width, weight, and sidewall height?

thansk for the great info!

i understand that a stock flywheel will help keep the revs, which is why it launches better.

But if it bogs, it really bogs!

Ohh, please bring this thread back to life, it's one of my absolute favorites :) Thank you so much Sarge, for taking the time to explain it step by step in the post above. It is probably common knowledge for some, but for rookies like me, it seems like a nugget of gold If anyone have more old school tips like that, please post them here!

Speed secrets cost BEER ;)

You used to be a steal, Sarge. Now you're getting way too expensive!

if you wire a switch to your clutch you dont have to worry about the button .
if you wire it to your handbrake , you can launch just like you used too !!!

I did that - had a bar welded into the back of the handbrake that would operate a microswitch for the 2-step. Let off the handbrake and the MSD would go onto the higher rev limit. I added a switch onto the dash to switch the 2 step on to limit burn-out RPMs and did forget to turn that off a few times though... ;)

i'm going with 2-step and line lock on the clutch switch
hidden switch on the dash to activate it
modifield "fuel" light in a 3-way motometer guage to let me know its activated !!!

Wires, switches, line-lock, clutch switch, 2-step, MSD..., my head's spinnin' ::) ;D

hehe :) shouldn't it be "less is more" :P

Darge don't you like wires and stuff ;)

Only if they involve blowing things up ;) ;D

hehe yeah, I didn't blow anything for a long time... I hope that i won't change :D especially during the racing on 28th ;D

oh the question :) I'm thinking about makeing linelock with 2 solenoids 1 on the front (burning some rubber) 1 on the back to load the gearbox, will I be albe to feel the car as using the hand brake? (by the way whats a hand brake :P hahaha I think there isn't one in my car :P)

yip !!!

less human input is more consistant launches :D

you mean inch the car forward ? or feel for point you "hit the resistence" ?

for more consistency you can use a brake-line pressure guage .....

Hahahaha...good point! ;D

i've narrowed it down to watching the light and letting the clutch up .....  still plenty for me to mess up !!!  :D

hmm I think I just wanna feel the car not read the gauges :)
I'm just wondering if it won't be to much tehnick involved which will reduce the link betwen car and me :)

you dont need to read the guages .
you only watch pressure guage while you activate the line lock . (as its not just stomp on the brakes and hit the switch)
when you activate line lock at predetermined pressure , you have also activated 2-step .
this is set to a predetermined rpm , so from then on all your watching is the lights ...

and i realize i'm straying offtopic as this is not how the old guys used to do it !!

they had to feel if the clutch was right , and the hanbrake right , and watch to see if the rpm was right ...

WAY to complicated for me !!!  ;)

Amen!

My favorite wires and "stuff" ;) ;D...

you have them for hunting use only , right ??

;)

Sarge, i have some pesky "foreigners" lurking 'round my house. Beers are free. What do you think ?!

Uh, yeah..., hunting purposes only :)


Free beers??  I'm down for that..., see you tonight ;D

                                                Is that for the really sophisticated rats of Chino?

This is how Sarge lunches.

seeing that , at 7 in the morning , makes me SO hungry !!!

Good burger will make you launch hard,lol ;D

Why is there a picture of Sarge holding his sausage?  Maybe it isn't his???

a good indian the night before will help get the wieght down !!

somebody mention slip-stream ??  :o

Hey Guys,
some new stories?
How about launching Ghias :)

Launching ghias? See above.

Hey guys I know this is late in the talk about the hand brake not dropping all the way. Since I drive my car on the street I didn't want to pull the push rod out I cut a small section out of the rod than tig welded in a nut, drilled a hole on the flat part and put in a pin. 8)

Good thinking!

Why do you need that?
Heres the sequence....
Stage
Pull up hand brake with button pushed in.
Hold button in pull hard on e brake
Let out clutch slightly
Hit gas, more clutch
Car feels like a bull thats hunching its rear quarters
Yellow yellow
Launch by releasing clutch depressing gas and pushing down hard on ebrake.
By the time you slam the ebrake down you just in time to shift into 2nd

So.... my point is, if you are pushing the ebrake down and moving your hand forward to shift.... why do you need a button lock?
Seems like over kill. 
There was an earlier post on this thread that truly made the most sense.  We DID drive these cars every day and I could FEEL the car. I knew when and how as I spent hours and hours driving it hard.  Plus we street raced a TON.  Experience is key and so is the willingness to drive your car hard like it should.

2 cents.  Good looking ebrake tho dude.

One more thing, as FiatDude so brilliantly said a few months ago.  Paraphrased...  "if you are still there when the light is green...you are LATE"
Chew on that.

Peace

exactly. same then as today. nothing different

Sarge, when you talk about coming off the line at about 5000 rpm's with pre-loaded box / clutch bite point, do you increase the rpm's to about 5000 whilst waiting and hold there until you release the clutch all the way by either slipping the clutch in or sidestepping.......................or are you blipping the rpm's up around 5000 and then slipping or sidestepping the clutch ????

Launch techniques and running gear combo's are so critical and I have tried many and never come to a tried and tested best technique for launching due to other variables. Such a nightmare but so critical as it will stop you realising the full potential of your ride if you can't get it right.

I currently have what should easily be a high 11 second ride but so far mid 12's is the best I can muster :/ Practise and seat time is invaluable and I totally agree with you guys talking about driving your car so much that you know it so well it's like a part of you and also makes for consistent fastest ET's you cam get with the given combo.

I have a very simple method of handbrake release to make sure when I launch and let go of the handbrake it doesn't stay on... I simply gaffer tape the push button down so that it can't engage the ratchet mechanism. Very simple, effective an costs zero moolah ;)

i just held in the button and drilled a hole through handle and button and when racing push a split pin in the hole works a treat  :)

This is my little helper. Old fashioned but effective.
Press the button...put in the splint pin...and pull the brake at the upper arm.
The upper arm is closer to me and I don´t hit the splint pin with my hand.

[attachment=1]

Was not a line lock available for the old guys?

I cant figure out why you would or should use the handbrake leaving the rest of the car unloaded in the launch.

-BB-

My way

The idea was to preload the driveline to lessen the shock of starting from a dead stop.

This can also be done using a line-lock. It's all in the technique ... not rocket science!
Do some research into how NHRA ProStock drivers stage their cars ... I'll give you a hint, they don't have emergency brakes ;)
Another ... there's a reason many have a brake-line pressure gauge in the dash ;)
TxT

Let's add a bit more to this, just to really confuse us all. 

I'm going to install a micro switch on my e-brake handle to operate my Two-step.  Pull up on the handle for pre-load at staging, the two-step is also activated.  Bring up the R's on the limiter.....when I drop the handle, here we go. 

Exactly!

Not confusing at all but why not make it easier and forget about the e-brake so that you can have both hands on the steering wheel or at least one on the steering wheel and the other on the shifter? I personally think there is a huge difference between a car pre-loaded using only the e-brake and a car that is standing at the lights pre-loaded with the line lock. I use a micro switch on the steering wheel to control the line lock, the launch rpms and the boost...but thats new school  :)

Because I have found that there isn't time to depress the brake pedal, and set the line lock all with both staging lights lit.  So no, it's not easier IMO.  I only need one hand on the wheel, and am not shifting until long after I've dropped the handle.

OK, this is how I stage ... your results may differ:
(My line-lock switch is just below my shifter handle and 2-step micro-switch on firewall and activates when clutch is depressed so no need to let go of anything!)

#1 Pull into prestage beam & stop
#2 Apply small amount of brake pressure & set line lock
#3 Drive into second staging beam using clutch (line-lock still set so tranny is preloaded)
#4 Leave at predetermined rhythm with lights ... !

It is EXTREMELY HELPFUL to practice this about 1000 times with car running and not running to get YOUR staging proceedure memorized. Oh, and dobn't forget to BREATH! LOL
 ;)
TxT

How to make your street car faster:

1) rear tires schould be changed to 195/50-15 for racing with a stock ratio transmission

2) no bumpers and only the driver seat inside the car- less is more just save weight as much as you can

3) practice

1 and 2 makes your car feel like a nice engine update :o :o :o


Dirk zeyen

You're right, when both staging lights are lit it's too late think about your launching procedure. It's got to be done when pre-staged where you have all the time in the world or until the starter gives you a warning.

#1 is not true, when I added M&H cheater slicks to my old '65 Bug with stock trans I picked up .4 seconds due to way better grip.  This was with ebrake preloading, of course.  :D

I do agree radials are way better for street driving, the M&H's are very squishy.

Slicks= better grip that's right ;D

but if you run 205/70-15 tires and switch to 195/15-15 it makes a big difference!!!

If you are running 205/70-15 at 100km/h the 195/50-15 will bring you only to 86km/h at the same rpm.

Your acceleration from 50km/h to 160km/h will be much better!!!


Dirk Zeyen

Hi all,

here is my racing device  :D

[attachment=1][attachment=2]

i think all depends on what is your goal in race .Do you want to hunt for a fast ET or do you want to eliminate your oponent.This year i am going to start drag racing again after many years .

My setup for upcoming 1/8 mile race will be 6"slicks on the rear with stock gearbox 4.12 differential and 2017cc engine pulls easily 6000rpm .

So i launch by playing gas pedal do not stand at high rpm .Pull the gas pedal short to 5000 rpm when the second yellow light is burning and then engage the clutch fully at 3500 and put the paedal down with much a little dynamic feeling to the engine ,so you have a much better acceleration if you stand direct on full gas .shift into the second gear so all gears will run on full gas now because the dynamical acceleration with the most torque is now reached by shifting in every gear.

That´s my best recept to do a sucessful race and safe the gearbox for breaking .Everything can be done all depends on your feeling to your engine. :)

If your engine is a street torque monster bigger tires will be better i think because smaller tires turn the engine much higher and you loose time with shifting up ,so it is dficult to say what will be better.

Three things being discussed here

1.  Tires - grip lowers 60 foot times
2.  Ebrake staging - allows better launch with much less change of trans breakage
3.  Smaller rear tires - keeps engine higher in RPM/powerband.  This may or may not be good depending on the powerband of your engine

I had the following engine/trans/car combo that worked so well together it was amazing. The motor was a 69 c/w crank, 12.5 lb flywheel, stock rods polished, 90 NPR pistons, Engle VZ73 cam, autocraft 1:4 rockers, 40 x 35.5 heads that had ports so big that I had to have Autocraft weld a bunch on my skat trac manifolds. When you put the manifolds on before welding the ports stuck out past the manifold. 48Ida's w 37mm venturies, 1 5/8 merge header. We balanced everything and made sure deck height was the same on all the cyls.This motor would buzz to 7400 rpm no sweat. The trans had all the trick stuff and the gearing was 4:12 r&p, a s/b main shaft 1st and 2nd, 1.58 3rd and 1.21 4th. With my 14" alloys and tires the final drive ratio was 5.02:1, as a young guy I loved RPM.
I had Michelin radials and the front shocks were stockers drilled out so they had no oil in them. When I put my foot on the bumper and went up and down quickly the front of the car would follow me and not lag at all. When I loaded the trans with the e brake and left at over 7k rpm the car would just squat a little and just take off like a raped ape. In all the street racing I did only one other car stayed with me across the intersection and it was my friends 65 Chevy with 16" Hoosiers underneath it that he had just spent a minute doing a burnout.

That was the best combo I ever had, so fun, so fast, and I drove it everyday and it saw over 7k rpm everyday. After 2 years the end of the crank got a little sloppy and the rod bearings needed replaced but it never let me down. I beat so many V8's, they never knew what hit them.