The Cal-look Lounge

how popular in Europe is it to mount engine oil cooler up in front of car? Seems there is some room up near beam, but are guys running AN10 oil lines? Which pump?
Any advantages?

Just thinking

You see that every now and then but most people dont have the oilcooler upfront.

I know alot of germanlook cars have the oilcooler upfront.My car is to low in the front to have an oilcooler there and to many bumps here in holland,haha 8)

A popular mount is to put it on the rear, like the system cagero do.
Front mounted are more for german looker.

(http://www.luftkraft.ch/gossip/cagero_oel.jpg)

The Cagero is very nice. But it just dont cut it on a big cc sustained high speed type 1. I have used a couple of them in conjunction with the stock super Beetle cooler in the fan housing. Then I have uesd them over a thermostat and that is fine and can take care of a lot power then.
My favourite is still a front mounted cooler. I use a 530 mm. cooler from a Mercedes mini truck. Mounted up in front of the beam, and with an air foil in front of it to pick up air and force it through the cooler. Works very well.

WRT line size. I´m not sure of the AN size, but you need at least ½" I.D. on the hose, anmd the narrowest point in the fittings must be no less than 9,5 mm.
T

In Europe most people mount their oil coolers in the front  with original or 30 mm pump and 13 mm inside diameter oil lines . I think it is An 10 !? For me Setrap coolers are the best , you can get these in different sizes .

Udo

I've run my Setrab for 10 years now, and it is far superior in cooling and construction over the Mesas. I just wonder if it gets enough cool air through it where I have it situated. It sits longitudinally to the left of transaxle, hung about 1.5" down from underside of luggage floor. Fan motors hang below cooler. I am considering making some type of air funnel to feed cooler from down around LH torsion tube.
A friend of mine in the 1990's ran some type of fin cooler up behind the front grille of his 1974 Super Beetle, with Melling iron pump and 1/2" (AN-8) lines. He drove the crap out of the car and I never saw oil temp go above 180F. It would blow filters off if he didn't let it warm up too. I just wonder if oil lines that lng need to go to AN-10 in place of -8

Jim, On Sunday, have a look at where Bill mounted his cooler.

Hey Jim,   
   Where do you get Setrab coolers?

Mckenzies in Anaheim right dow the street from Roger's shop.

The weird thing about Setrab coolers is that they are cheaper in the US than in sweden, even though they are made in Sweden!

All I'm gonna say on this subject is - NO NO NO NO NO NO NO!!!!!!!

it just seems logical to me - why mount it where its going to get hit by road debris ??? - there is also those stupidly long oil lines running the length of the chassis, these could be damaged at ANY time :o

Above the gearbox always seems like a cool idea - or on the rear air vent just like EMPI had in mind  ;) :)

did they try and make you go to rehab ?  :D ;D

From the sound of your reply, I´m pretty sure that you have never built a hi power engine designed for sustained high speed.

1. Who said anything about not protecting the cooler somewhat
2. Whats so bad about long oil lines ?
3. No one said that you couldnt run the lines inside tha car instead of under it.
4. To install a cooler with or without a fan above the gearbox is about as inefficient as can be. A 12 X 12 atomic cooler installed up there barely averages a 13 row Setrab cooler, front mounted.
T

wo wo wo calm down there "Newbie" ;) :)

I was just putting in my 2 cents - This is just my "opinion"

it just doesn't feel right to me and there is always the fact that its not "Cal Look"  :P ;) :)

I mounted my cooler just below the rear framehorns that carry the gearbox/motor. i mounted a mercedes oilcooler as Torben Alstrup has mentioned. This setup works EXTREMELY well, and on a callooker there are NO clearance-problems, and the cooler can´t be seen unless you know it´s there.

I have used this setup at sustained highway speeds for hours and hours, both with my old 1914-w130-10,8:1C/R engine, and with a stock 1.8L type 4 (upright conversion, only running external oilcooler) engine. Never saw high oiltemperatures with this setup - EVER!

Before changing the oilcooler to the mercedes type mounted under the framehorns, I used to run a little oilcooler with thermostat/cooler mounted above the gearbox. when changing oilcooler I immediately saw highway oiltemps drop about 20 deegrees celcious.

Use a good cooler and mount it where the air is forced through (not above the gearbox!!!)

running 130km/h forces an extremely high airspeed through the cooler, and no electric fan can ever get close to this airspeed!

just to clarify, my Setrab is not above gearbox, it is positioned next to it, just to the left. I would like to think it gets enough cool air through it, but I think it needs a duct to either duct hot air out of it or duct (only) cold air to fans.

FYI no matter how hot it has gotten outside down here, I have yet to see over 190F even on long freeway drives.

Because cal-look cars are not meant to be driven fast for longer periods of time. This is because cal-look was born in US.
There is a reason why cal-look and german look cars are different. Both styles are in general purposeful. The point is that this "purpose" is different. If I want to have a Bug which accelerates fast - I will ask Americans for advice. But if I decide to build a car which is meant to be fast on the (good quality) street (i.e. good top speed and good handling) I would rather follow the European way. I know that this is cal-look forum, but still - I think most of us just like fast Bugs.

 

me too

I'm not crazy about the idea either, Lee. Seems like a lot more hassle, for little gain.

BTW, if you set up the cooling system properly, I dont think an external cooler is even needed on a type 1. My .02 ::)

What else do you think I need to do to my cooling system Zach, aside from OE 040 heads,  factory VW fan housing, cylinder covers, stock VW cooler, stock VW lower tins, jetted and timed correctly? How do you get aorund the increase in heat from higher CR, higher rpm, and more heat generated through dual springs, ratio rockers, etc? How do you suggest I keep my street driven 2165 at an acceptable oil temperature when the ambient temp exceeds 90F? I do drive my car for extended distances and periods of time.  ;)

I wondered about efficiency of my location because of proximity of heat in that same area (headers, transaxle, external filter, sump...) and also looking at where Porsche mounted external coolers on every street and competition rear or mid-engined car since about 1957 or so. SOME of those cars, yes, were dry-sump, I know. I am merely wondering if the off-the-shelf 30mm pumps will be sufficient to run oil to front of car and back again and still provide enough volume and pressure when oil gets warm (180F+). I know some 912 guys are running the 616 engine and have run AN-10 lines to the front fenderwell-located cooler.

Off the top of my head...

Vented decklid
Type 4 oil cooler
356/912 gen pulley
Berg crank pulley (newer one, it is slightly larger than stock whereas the standard aftermarket pulleys are slightly smaller than stock)
FI venturi ring on the back of the shroud
Block off radiating exhaust heat from j-tubes (Thing tins, or fab up something similar)
Thermostat
All rubber seals in place and in good shape (both oil cooler exhaust seals and throttle cable conduit seal are usually worn or missing)

I try and make the motor cool itself, and as a last resort install an external cooler. Simpler that way ;) And I agree that the Setrab is FAR superior than any "plate" type oil cooler.


That would be a top concern of mine as well.

Thanks for the "back up" dude  ;) :)

I also think your right about the stock cooling system - The MAIN reason I fitted one along with a deep sump, 32mm pump and the MASSIVE HP1 was purely for EXTRA OIL CAPASITY after all thats the BEST "cooler" you can have  ;) :)

How on earth does this cooler get any air through those tiny little slots? A giant oil cooler is only as good as the cooling medium passing through it and if there is no flow, it just isn't going to cool. Looks like an expensive waste of money to me...
Ditch that ridiculous air scoop and fabricate one that works and that cooler would be a winner.

i'm guessing the 32mm pump is a typo ?

nope, it's not...

longer lines do mean more oil. and i think the oilcooler up front right in the colder air will cool better, but i haven't had problems with my setup since the engine runs better. i eliminated most bumps and sharp turns in the system and have sealed the cooling tin better and now my engine ran cool. the pump pushes the oil out to the filter that is mounted on a bracket attachet to the left headstuds and from there runs a line to the oilcooler next to the gearbox. like jim has it. the only thing you have to look for is the way the openings face.
different engines generate different heat. but more oil will keep an engine cooler and a cooler that is wellfed with fresh cold air works better. there is no need for the biggest cooler on a streetengine, but a good working system will keep a better constant temperature.

I worked at a shop for many years that sold oil coolers to customers that thought bolting a big Mesa cooler directly (i.e. flush) to the underside of the body (above transaxle) was "the way to do it." We also got a lot of tow-in come backs in the summer. I always thought of that big Mesa up there, without any air flowing through it was more of a heat sink type cooler.... only having the ability to radiate heat (but only when ambient temp is relatively cool). I never mounted my Mesa like that, instead, I made a brakcet that allowed me to hang it just below and to the rear of the LH torsion tube, with hose fittings facing rear. At least it was getting exposed to cooler air here. With my low compression 2054 (7.8:1) and 044 Magnum (circa 1990) heads I drove this car up and down various interstates in the San Joaquin Valley during the summer months, going to Southern Calif for parts and VW events. With this setup, the oil temp would only climb above 180f per VDO gauge going south, headed up Grapevine. Even when I increased CR to 8.8:1 (and changed to dual springs, ) the oil temp never exceeded 200F under same travels and same time of year.
However, once I went to 2276cc, with 9.2:1 and Super Flow 1 46 x 38mm heads and Chevy-style springs, the same cooling system no longer served me well. A similar trip on Interstate 5 in August, headed north to Plumas County, brought me oil temps in excess of 220F. Obviously, the less efficient head design and stiffer springs lended to the big jump in temp. This was with same fan, fan housing (Scat 36hp style), decklid prop, pulleys, etc as the smaller engine. I added a second Mesa (48 plate) to the RH torsion bar and finally could cool the engine enough. After I lost the cam in that motor, I was done with such large springs (this was 1992, before we lost good green Kendall) so I swapped to a set of the "black" SCS Competition Eliminator heads (same design as the old Street Elim) 42 x 37, lowered CR, but STILL had to run two Mesas to keep oil under 200F when temp outside got to 90F +. This time with stock VW fan housing (same one that is on my car today), all stock VW sheetmetal, yes, every seal and weatherstrip that was there stock (I worked at a VW shop in the 90's, we could still get all that stuff in Genuine). I was convinced that the heads were the culprit, but at the time, I was stuck with them. A few years later, I found the Setrab dual fan cooler, and decided that the forced air through it (and its construction) would be a much more efficient design than the Mesas, so I bought it and it was a struggle to find space for it up there. Finally fabbed some 4mm thick brackets and tubes with long bolts to fasten it next to gearbox, with fan motors below cooler. With this cooler alone, the temps easily stayed under 200F even with "brick heads", and when I switched to OEM VW heads, the oil temp dropped further (even with higher CR again). My point is, it isn't just which pulley or shroud or etc that you hang on the motor.... it depends on the motor itself, and yes it does depend on the cooler you choose and what kind of air goes through it. Those motors at my old work were not big cc fire-breathers. They were 1776's with Engle 110s and 041 heads but with crappy fan housings and the oil-cooker mounted flush. They'd come in with rods hanging out of cases and  the heads fried gold from heat. "But we bought an oil cooler..." the customers would cry.
Zach, how many 180hp guys in AZ drive their cars on the freeway out there for hours with only a 356 pulley, bus cooler and no external cooler? What oil temps do you see in your big engines set up like you mentioned above after driving on highway in 90F heat?

Dam right dude  ;) :) And its an Original Race Trim that came in its box  :o :)

I agree that the most important part of a cool running engine is the correct combination of parts, I was merely suggesting external upgrades to your motor in particular. On that note, I believe that deck height plays a critical role in cooling as well. Keeping the compression in the AL heads rather than the iron cylinders.



How many? How should I know? There isnt many guys here with 180+ hp, and the ones that do are to chicken shit to drive them in the summer! :D
From my experience I can tell you about my friend/former roomate Travis' engine, which I have mentioned before. 2276cc, FK8, 9:1, Clyde 044's, Berg5. Made 198hp, ran a best of 12.63 on DOT's, and was a true blue daily driver- even in the summer months. When we drove it out to the Classic in '02, it was 117 degrees when we drove through Blythe, the oil temp stayed a steady 100 degrees or less above ambient, driving at 80-85mph (according to AutoMeter). It had many of the tricks I listed above (but not all, and I have learned more since then ;)), but had a propped decklid (solid, propped at the top to clear the Berg IDA stacks), and NACA ducts in the quarter windows that fed fresh air directly to the carbs and fan- I am sure this made a big difference. A Mesa type cooler (I forget which one, but I dont think it was the big one) was used- it was above and to the left of the trans at an angle, below the package tray- not ideal. I would like to see what sheilding the j-tubes, 040 heads, and bolt on aluminium valve covers (Yes I said that) would do to his cylinder head temps- I bet the difference would be impressive.

I believe that an engine of 180hp, set up properly, driven in sane conditions at highway speed (Southwest desert in the summer is NOT sane!), should have no problem keeping its cool on a 90 degree day. Do everything that you can to the motor itself, then as a last resort, add an external cooler.

Another thing I just remembered, use a System 1 oil filter. It is the last filter you will ever buy, and the housing is constructed of finned aluminium. Pre fit all of your tins before you send them out for powdercoat, or paint. Loosely fitting tin will allow cool air to escape. Ive even seen a small bead of silicone used to make the tins leak free...

My dad and I are building a mild 1915 for his car that will be driven regularly in Phoenix, when we get going on it I will post up a thread on cooling tricks. Stay tuned ;)

A good 26 mm oil pump will send the oil to the front and back again. But I do admit that I like to install a 30 mm oil pump on these cars, and loose a little power on that account. Just to have a little more margin. 32 mm hi volume this and that is not needed.

The type 4 oil cooler in a type 1 fan shroud has very limited effect on reducing temps compared to a stock type 1. Due to the fact that air is limited to 14% of the volume from the fan. Now, IF you run low ratios and at the same time use a larger than stock pulley, like say a 356 one, you will see a slight decrease in temps when the engine is above aprrox. 3000 rpm. Typically about 5 degrees C.  If you run stock gears like a 4,125 transmission and stockish height tyres, you will often see a temperature INCREASE below 3000 rpm and status Quo or close to it above. - I know that at least one reputated vendor recommended it earlier, but that doesnt make it work better.

Also, yes, if youre mostly driving around in the city and hardly ever see sustained freeway speeds, the stock late model cooling system will take care of most engines, PROVIDED that the fan can get air. A pre 67 car with no vented decklid gets to be a handfull pretty soon.

Back when I finetuned my 70 hp 1600 cc. std plus engine. I did it in a car like that. We had cooling problems on the freeway. The head and oil temps just climbed "nice and easy" to unacceptable levels over a 30 - 40 minute period. We then drilled a 3"  hole in the right side of the bell housing cover, and routed a hose from it downside the transmission, about 3/4 way, pointing slightly forwards. We put a piece of "chicken fence" over the mouth to keep leafs and other larger debris away. That mod alone gave us 15 degrees  C. less head temps at sustained 85 mph. Later we cut an almost rectangular hole up under the licence plate light, and let the hole follow the shape of the light house which gave us roughly 75 cm2 of ventilation. (The hole was not visible from the rear unless you ducked down and leveled with the licence plate. That gave us another 5 degrees C. reduction of the head temps.

So yes, as someone said, its best to let the engine cool itself. But at some point it needs help.
T

I think this sound pretty fascinating! Do you have any pics to share Rasser?
I'm also curious as to how you mount the cooler to the framehorns...

As for me, I'm still in doubt what kind of oil cooler to use on my 1915, so I'll definitely follow this thread closely! ;)

Sorry don´t have any pics, but it´s just mounted below the horns (almost in line with the rear axles). You just have to make a couple of brackets that attach to the rear transmission mount frame.

I will take some pictures once i get the new engine/oilsystem mounted in my car (car is currently being restored).

No matter where the oil cooler is mounted, a bigger oil pump should'nt be nesserary. ½" inside diameter hose flows enough without pressure drop problems.
Front mounted oil cooler is kinda standard comfiguration on a lot of cars here in Denmark and Germany for that matter. Most people I know of use 26 mm pump
in this setup.
The problem with BIG oil pumps and stock oil system is that the amount of oil from the pump wiill keeps the pressure relief valve or valves wide open (bottom out)
and routes NO oil through the stock oil cooler no matter how hot the engine is. This is bad........  I have a friend who discoverd this the hard way many years
ago when a new engine was build with all the best parts and good intensions and a 30 mm pump. It blew apart big time on the freeway pretty soon after it
was build because of wide open pressure releif valves due to the size of the pump. 
A Berg relief cover would most likely have saved this engine or the engine should have been build without such a big pump

Just my 2 cent

/Rolf

Another thing I just remembered, use a System 1 oil filter. It is the last filter you will ever buy, and the housing is constructed of finned aluminium. Pre fit all of your tins before you send them out for powdercoat, or paint. Loosely fitting tin will allow cool air to escape. Ive even seen a small bead of silicone used to make the tins leak free...

[/quote]

Up to last year Mesa performance had a guy making them an ally finned outer that fitted the Fram HP1, it's a brilliant accessory - bought down the oil temps on my van by 5 degrees F, not bad for 20 bucks and a 10 second instal time.  Unfortunately the material cost to the builder went up by something like a factor of 10 so he stopped making them and they are no longer available (unless any other supplier offers something similar).  I suppose some kind of home made jobbie would be possible with the right skills.....definitely makes a difference having some sort of finned aluminium round the oil filter

rasser, is the lower one in the pic the size of oil cooler you mean?

(http://www.vwparts.net/mm5/photos/lg/3080cool.GIF)

btw, these are all the mesa coolers around. 24, 48, 72 and 96 plate

If one gets a higher output from the pump than the stock oil galley can handle (flow) The pressure will build big time in the first part of the galley, and you will read high numbers on your gauge. Not an ideal situation. The flow output from the pump should not be bigger that what the pressure relief valve can handle wide open, the valve is supposed to "build" the pressure, not the restriction on the way there. 

On the subject of keeping an engine cool...

I just had an interesting lesson in cylinder head temps and how they are affected by the spark plug lead not correctly fitting the cylinder head tin. Just bench ran a 1641 to break the cam in and I was monitoring the cylinder head temps on the outside of the tinware with an infra red heat gun, when I noticed that number 4 was running 40F hotter than the rest of the cylinders. I knew it wasn't a jetting issue as the motor was running the stock single carb. Anyway, kept checking the head temps and was scratching my head when I noticed that the plug lead wasn't fully home on Cyl 4 so air was leaking past the big rubber sealing grommet. Guess what? Fitted the lead properly and the head temp fell to that of the rest of the cylinders. I just goes to show how important a leak-free tinware setup is!

I am pressently working on building a 2276 for my Bay Bus tow vehicle and am using all genuine tinware, but I have modified the cylinder tin and other bits to make sure the tinware is as leak-free as possible.

Here's the tinware. It had a 4mm gap so was going allow a lot of hot air to rise in to the fanshroud...

(http://img110.mytextgraphics.com/photolava/2008/05/15/dsc00188-4aipexxci.jpeg)

I then cut some 4 mm strip and tigged it on and ground the welds flush

(http://img107.mytextgraphics.com/photolava/2008/05/15/dsc00195-4aipf5yg0.jpeg)

The front of the cylinder tin now has the crescent shape by the main bearing hardware welded...

(http://img701.mytextgraphics.com/photolava/2008/05/15/dsc00198-4aipfb7bz.jpeg)

The back of the tin is now super-snug too!

(http://img107.mytextgraphics.com/photolava/2008/05/15/dsc00199-4aipfgkyn.jpeg)

Cool runnings... hopefully 8)

This same issue of holding bypass valves wide open happens with too heavy of a viscosity of oil too.
My old, late friend, Mike Collins told me this many years ago when he saw me pouring 40wt Gt1 into my car. One of his priceless, "trademark" comments... something like "hope you're going to take your decklid off" or something. Which made me beg him to elaborate.
He also taught me the System 1 filters don't filter all that well (then showed me all the black film inside my rocker covers).
Went to HP1 (and later Canton) and heads stay silver. But we've already covered filters in another post.....
 ;D
Zach, sounds like your buddy's car was set up to do it all. I'm sure if I had my decklid open at top and a bunch of NACA scoops I could probably take my belt off and run around. But I'd keep my Setrab.  ;)

It was, but it also made more than 180hp and was driven in temps waaayy over 90 degrees... ;)

Now this is really getting interesting  :)

I will be honest I have NEVER had a temp or pressure guage on my engine  :o The Empi ones on the dash don't work ::) :) it would be interesting though  ;) :)

The only tinware I run is a Scat 30hp style fan housing with the cooler out the back and the 2 cylinderhead tins - I don't run ANY of the bottom parts as its in a buggy, it all fits really really well - I run a smaller bottom pulley, a 32mm race trim pump a HP1 filter and 1/2 inch proper braided oil lines - I can drive at 3000rpm/80mph ALL DAY LONG in ALL weathers and I can ALWAYS put my hands round the HP1 after I shut her off and not burn myself - not the best method but it works for me  ;) :)

P.S I will hook up those guages some day - don't worry guys  :)

I just had another thought - this ones for you tecnical guys  ;) :)

Does having all that EXTRA Aluminuim on my engine ie: Fan belt cover, push rod tubes, rocker covers, larger dds manifold etc HELP dissipate all that heat better  ??? ??? ???

Matt,

nice work!  I just did all new tin on the bug and spent several weekends cutting and grinding to get it all to fit - so much work.  Got my head tins really snug to the case just like yours.

Just to be clear about the plug leads - the old style VW ones come with the big round rubber grommets that close off the entire spark plug hole in the cylinder tin and I'm presuming you mean this made that big difference?  I don't run those big seals on the van so there's fairly chunky gaps there - so I'm best to make some round grommets (or rob some off an old set of original VW leads) to fit over the plug lead ends and seal it all up perfectly?

Cheers
Phil

Let's go back to the original question posted by Jim and get some more info about the front mounted setups.  Can some of you euro fellas post up some pics, schematics or specs for the front mounted setups used on the streets and tracks?  Especially the systems used on some of the Kafer-Cup and similar cars.

Derek, check out email I sent you with the MBZ 126 180 0065 cooler... weighs about 4 lbs made by Behr
will easily fit up behind apron on your car.

Whats a 4 mm tin gap ? Run for 5000 miles now with frontmouted setrab cooler and Porche 5 blade  Fan , reaching
120 m/h , no problms at all .. lucky  I suppose ...
Reg 

Phil

Yes you are right I am referring to the rubber sealing grommets that seal up the spark plug hole. Yes they really do make a big difference, so reckon you should make yourself some 8)

Reckon we should start a post about general tips on keeping your engines cool...

Hey Derek that Mercedes cooler is on its way north this weekend, and the lines should be there for you too. Thanks again,

Jim

Thanks Jim!!!

what kind of mercedes cooler jim?

It's a Behr unit from W123 turbo diesel (or W126 with OM617 eng)....part # 1261800065

here's what I did to force cold air (compared to ambient near cooler) through my Setrab

Thats the type I mount under the framehorns!

mmh, would be interesting to see what that looks like rasser.

anyway, me and 2 clubmates just ordered 3 cagero oilcoolers. will post a pic when it's been installed  :)

I'm going to mount 48 mesa twin coolers sideways of the framehorns. (Aluminum Case..) One with a 7" fan. The position will be as much as possible to the rear of the car (Height-Speedbumps etc)) and so they will just pick up air from the windspeed under the car. If the temps are to cool, i can just tape them up. If still hot i have to start all o.....

hey guys,
do you think its really necessary to have an external oil cooler in our cold countries?

probably not but if you drive like me then you will  ;) :)

so yes for you too.  ;)

Jim, where do you "pick-up" or "intake" youre fresh air ?

the "opening" is just below/behind RH rear torsion tube. It's a simple "box" about 10" wide, 3" high, I used two 113255165 VW fresh air pipes and 113119585B grommets going through rear wall of "scoop", connected to two 50mm Volvo hot-air hoses p/n 946841 that run up over trans and into duct I made to feed cooler/fans. I think it may work "too well" as last Sunday I was running hard up 57 freeway and once oil got to 180F or so (when fan is triggered by thermo switch), and the fan came on, the temp would drop a bit below 180F. I may switch thermo fan temps,

Thanks,

PM

hey guys,
what about bike coolers?
from a bmw 1100

OK for additional cooling setups.
T

now that I've moved to nevada a heater is a little more important, but I got rid of everything heater wise. So what I've been thinking of is putting the a cooler under rear seat and blowing air over and through cooler and venting to at least my feet area in winter and through bottom of car in summer, any ideas , do's and don'ts any body?

Funny you mention this as I had a similar idea for the Manx as it gets a bit cold at night here in the uk/europe - I think it would be a great idea in a bug I might even do it to PROJECT 66  ;) :)

I remember seeing a kit that was set up to do just that several years ago, think it was a kit car supplies company, possibly Europa that sold it. I'll have a look! :)

Or leave cooler up under car by transaxle, but duct hot waste air into one of the heater ducts going into body? Then you can use stock heater outlets on driver's side and shut them on and off?

cool idea jim!

yeah you could do that, but it also will allow exhaust gasses to come in and that is not so good. i thought about it and when you end up in a traffic jam that is going to happen... BUT you can enjoy heating untill you go unconscious and afterwards you won't feel much anyway...  ;D ;D ;D

"I have become comfortably numb"

i was talking about this with that electric beetle dude .
was gonna do it to my sisters westy , but she said she doesnt want a heater (hardcore!!)
his plan was to install ballvalves on the oil lines under the rear seat and simply turn off in summer ;)
he said something about fans not being strong enough to push through heater channels , and its better just to fill the cabin from the rear seat , or mount under dash on passenger side . (this option unexceptable to me)

scissor sisters or floyd ?? :D

I am glad other loungers have been thinking about this idea - I'm not the only wierdo that sits around at night thinking up strange new ideas for my "project" then   :D :)

Under the rear seat opposite the battery seems like a cool idea to me, not only does it mean you have "Some" heat in the car with NO heat exchangers it also mean the cooler will ALWAYS be protected  ;)

I also like the idea of the Ball Valves  :)

There was a Texas based (I think) company that used to sell a kit with fans and all for oil assist heating in the passenger compartement years ago. I bought a couple of sets at the time, for some all year cars. We installed them under the rear window, blowing up/forward. And they actually helped keeping the front window defrosted too, because of the somewhat dryer air inside. We hooked them up directly to the engine and then had a thermostatic controlled  outside extra cooler to stabilize things. It was hardly ever active in the cold months though.
It was´nt as good as a gas heater, but certanly a significant help to keep a comfortable temperature even on cold days.
T

But think about where the air comes from in a regular VW heating system? From outside the car, through the rear window vents and into the engine bay, through the heat exchangers and then into the car. If you're in a traffic jam, surely you're going to get exhaust gasses coming through that system too? ??? Or are you working on the theory that the cooler duct on Jim's system is closer to the ground and therefore to the exhausts of other cars? If so, you've got a point! :D

This worked for me.

he said it would be better to run the internal "heat exchanger" in ADDITION to your normal engine oil cooler .
cant remeber why though . maybe it was due to the valves giving the ability to shut down oil flow ??

pm me an address anmd i''ll forward you the email convos .
the guy worked with moved air , and new what was what with the fan side of thinfgs .
i was looking at fitting solenoid valves instead of ball-valves and having a switch on the dash . he told me they could be worked in-line with the 2 speed fan switch he was using . (IIRC )

"i was looking at fitting solenoid valves instead of ball-valves and having a switch on the dash" 

Again great minds think alike dude - Just as I posted I thought of that idea  ;) :)

I will drop you a PM soon dude  :)

lemme know , and i will search through the thousands of useless emails i have stored ....  ::)

BUt aftermarket Bugpack without fan is not good for a 1776cc engle 120 IDA48 motor?
i MUST to install a MESACOLER, cagero ECC... ECC...


can i see a photoes of right installation position?

(http://bp3.blogger.com/_S8NzUWeTRT0/R3N5nt9wdNI/AAAAAAAAAp4/b3iDq_EXdgU/s400/Immagine+743.jpg)

The Cagero Oil cooler works extremely well, you can even add a second one to the right side of the car if you want. I only once run into a problem after hunting a Chrysler Crossfire on the German Autobahn towards the Swiss boarder. At sustained Highway speeds above 100 mph. Actually sometimes at 5800rpm in the 4th gear, what equals 190 km/h. This was on the trip back from EBI1 and it was quite warm outside. My engine oil temp never went above 110°C. But then it happened…. A traffic jam at the boarder to Switzerland, slow stop and go and my engine oil jumped to 120-130°C and my Oil pressure dropped to around 0.25 bar at idle (the green light came intermittent on). This scared the shit out of me, I switched the engine off to let it cool down. So I decided to add an electric fan to the otherwise well engineered Cagero cooler. It is a thermostatically controlled puller fan from SPAL. It is small but extremely powerful. It is normally used on Trial Motorcycles (Beta). Trial Motorcycles need powerful fans because the operate at very slow speeds. This takes the danger out of suddenly running out of airspeed… he, he, he…  ;D

(http://www.bugkeeper.ch/bilder/fan.jpg)

Long oil lines create pressure drops, I don’t like front oil coolers… My opinion. Look at all the rear engine pure bred Italian, German and British (Lotus) cars. Most have their oil coolers in the rear wheel well. At least somewhere in the back.

Oil pumps, never run bigger than 26mm pumps with the original oil cooler in place.26mm is enough in a good engine. The volume and pressure of larger pumps keep the stock “thermostat” closed and the result is a much higher oil temperature with pressure loss. You might wonder why, since you are already running this big bad ass oil pump… If gut out all the original flaps and the original oil cooler and you rely only on external coolers you may or must (front oil cooler) use 30mm.

I run a 26mm pump with Cagero cooler, piston squirters and a turbo which needs lubrication as well. 26mm seems to be enough for me.

My 2 cents…

Cheers Dom  8)

my carrera has the oil-cooler in the front wheel well .
i have a second cooler to go in the opposite one , like on the rsr3.8 .

so i guess porsche motorsport disagrees with you :D

heres mine . excuse the mess !!!
(http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x216/iancross182/melissacam041.jpg)

DUDE that looks rather risky

hopefully newell will have removed most of the sand/oil with his hands/head when i get to see the car next ;)

as you can see , the cooler is new . it had a hole ripped in it (surprise) and a new one was put on just so the engine could be run while it was tested/put in storage .

tiger motors fitted the new one  for me , and they wanted to place somewhere else , but thats a job for the future

Being centered to the axle means that when you hit a bump, the cooler rises with the car.  If you run a Berg style intermediate mount, any rocks that kick up will get deflected out of the way. 
Wouldn't bother me to put the cooler there.

Its not the "Bumps" I'm worried about so much - its Road debris!! the Cooler is also now the LOWEST point on the chassis - NOT A GOOD IDEA!! just my 2 cents though  :)

If you have a Berg style intermediate mount, IT is the lowest point on the chassis.

Hmmmm I guess but fitting a berg mount JUST so you can mount the cooler there - seems alittle wierd to me  :-\ :)

the sump is actually lower ....... and the berg bar lower than that ...... and the filter lower than that .....

i think i'm gonna look at jim rattos set-up , but will see how it goes when i have the new engine up and running .

edit : just checked on a pic , my filter isn't lower !!! 

If that's the reason you think everyone uses a Berg intermediate mount, you'd better go back to driving a Honda.

ok i'll go and get my civic out then  :D :D :D I understand why you'd fit the intermediate mount - don't worry ;) :) :)

To me as I have already mentioned MANY times it just seem silly to me to mount these somewhat delicate coolers in vunerable places be it under your gearbox OR at the front under the bumper - its just my 2 cents dude  :)

yes it goes up with the car, but if you ever happen to get on a small road where the track is deeper it maybe hit. also if you get off a curb the car drops a bit more and the cooler can be damaged. true it is a good place to cool, but on a roadcar i would never use this setup for safety reasons.
i drove off a small sidewalk with the type3 and the exittube on the fullflow was sticking less then an inch out from the bottom of the engine and it hit the curb. oil was everywere and it nearly killed  the engine alltogether as all oil was going through the pump. luckily this happened 20 yards from the firedepartment and they were kind enough to help me out, clean the road and even gave me some oil after i fixed the leak on their bridge.
i am even very allert now, because i run a sump.

"yes it goes up with the car, but if you ever happen to get on a small road where the track is deeper it maybe hit. also if you get off a curb the car drops a bit more and the cooler can be damaged. true it is a good place to cool, but on a roadcar i would never use this setup for safety reasons."

Very very good points dude - I was going to mention them too ;) :)

I don't know if you guys have them over there in europe but we have these crappy speed bumps here in the UK that are only a small hump in the middle of each lane which effectivly creates a lane with HUGE ruts - I have even scraped the sump of the manx on these  ::) :)

ok . good answers guys .....
when i posted my pics ,  i forgor to add ...

"will not be used on farm-tracks or country lanes ;)

this set-up has been running round o.c for god knows how many years ......................   but i'm with you , i'm not perfectly hasppy with it !!

but like i said , i'll wait until i get an idea of the "hotness" of the new build before i do anything avbout it !!!

translated : this car is over 5.5k mi;les away , and goes o.k .   ......  doesnt really care about "road" debris ;)

My new set-up. Twin cooler/fan combo. Coolers are just taking airstream from under the floorpans. Sorry for the crap under the car.

cool setup harry! same idea as the cagero coolers.
i'm sure these will work like a charm!!

 ::) why do you euro guys want to mount your coolers so low  ??? ::) ;) :)

Thanks Died, Hope so and will let you know.

Hey Monkiboy, it's not that low everything is mounted under the framehorns close to the torsionbar-housings. Coolers stick out under the floorpan just to get some air for about 3 to 4 cm.

Harry

yeah I just realised thay you guys with Bugs have that "low area" on the floorpan - mine is modified to be almost FLAT for off roading so I guess yours is not really that low  :)

 As I have said its just a personal thing I have about fitting cooler in places like this - I am sure it will do an awsome job of keeping your motor cool  :)

Also Died's - I am not a massive fan of that cooler kit you brought - it seems to cut off more air flow than it gains  :-\ :)

BTW  Monkiboy, How's youre Euro Vacantion going on..

No vacantion for me dude - plans changed alittle - I'm back in the UK earning money for SCC - its gonna cost me SOOOOOOOOO much in fuel  ::) :)

I have big plans for a eruo road trip next year though - trust me  ;) :)

Anyway back to oil coolers  :D :)

Let's Cool then  ;D

Thats right.

My friend has a 1776ccm engine ina a 1303 cabrio beetle.
Oil cooler is mounted on the front end, somewhere below front apron.
That 1776ccm engine is very interesting (true old school ?): it has stock non-counterweight and unballanced crank with only four dowells, W120 cam, stock 35x32 heads, 2x Weber 40 IDF's, a 009 style distributor and only a single hi-rew springs and a CSP exaust system.
Oil cooler is froma a Mercedes W123 and is fed by 30mm oil pump...
Oil temps don't go above 90 degrees celsius on the open road at almost all speeds (measured with VDO temp gauge and deepstick sender).. 8)

Sounds cool... ;)

As I'm fitting a new oil radiator in front of my car, I took some pictures of what I've done to install the oil hose.
So, I drill 2 holes in the chassis, between the 2 framehornes. The hoses pass now in the tunnel and goes out through the plate which is beside the front beam. I protect the holes with rubbers that comes from a T3 but don't know parts numbers ?  ;)
 
I don't know if it is a good solution or if there are risks to damage something in the tunnel but I found this was a not too bad solution. And a friend use this system on his racetrack car for years.  ;)

I also use a Mercedes radiator, but I have problems because nozzles are not the same as the old one, that come also from a Mercedez  ???

Hope it can help and sorry for the crap, picture don't give justice to my car  :-\  ;)

Looks good dude BUT its the cooler its self I worry about  :-\ :)

It's mounted in front of the beam, almost invisible. I know you fear road debris but I can use a wire netting to protect it just in case.

This engine was first installed in a 65 that was used in historical rally. The guy mount the radiator beside the bumper... And never have problems with!  ;)

Jim at Stateside tuning ran oil coolers mounted to the front beam, this always provides the best cooling.  any other position on a bug requires work to get them to be as efficient.

For example the area above the gearbox and below the boot floor is almost devoid of airflow, my car is still spotless under there even with all the daily driving it used to receive.  This is why you need to fit a fan! then you realise some ducts would help!

on a modern car the radiator is fitted in direct airflow, and they seem to cope with road debris.  Admittedly they are a little higher.  Just to help you should fit a gauge.

Here ya go!

Which cooler is that Rasser?

Mercedes something....

It still has the sticker with the part number on it, I can have a look if you like ?

I have this one

Part numbers
A0021883001
27697216
1142140

But I also use a Mocal 16 row that fits easily on the right side of the beam.

(http://www.piecesauto-tuning.com/boutique/images/nrf/31043-500.jpg)

Please and thanks.

I'm gonna stir things up a little again cos thos pic's just send a shiver down my spine :-\ it just looks so "naked" hanging there - Just my 2 cents guys  ;) :)

It sits down there not for the looks, but for optimum cooling.  And it cools perfect - how does a maximum of 85 degree oil temp at 150km/h sound (over a 100km long testdrive with constant high speed - type 4 engine). It looks naked because it is put right down where the air is beeing forced through it while driving. No fan can ever produce this much air pressure. Its all business  ;)

If you are worried about the cooler hitting the road - Don´t be!!  It is mounted so close to the axles that when I drive over an object, then the cooler "follows" the wheels, and not the body - off course everything has it limits, but you get the idea. I have driven like that for 3 years now, and never ever hit anything!
And it isn´t noticeable from the outside like a front mounted, but it has all the benefits that the front mounted has.

Best oil-cooling money can buy!

That´s exactly the one I use, i just removed the center mount of the cooler.

Just to confirm with you Rasser, you found this oil cooler at your local Mercedes dealer or did you take it from a old car?

I like the small and neat size of it. I noticed Setrab is also selling some small ones.

Best rgs
BB

thanks for posting rasser! very neat cooler indeed! it's just that i already bought a cagero cooler ($$)  ::)
but this does look very interesting. and i can see what you mean about the position, perfect airflow and it's in almost between the axles! there's only one way you can hit it and that's with these road bumps we have in holland that are only 1.5m wide and go underneath the car.

did you just bolt it on, or did you weld those brackets to the frame horns?

and lee, it'll be fine! just don't drive it like a buggy  ;)

I bought it new from a "Cooler-shop" that sells replacement coolers for all manufactures.  If I remember right then it has 22x1,5 male fittings. If I were to do it again, then I would have these fittings cut off, and welded some alu. AN fittings on instead.

That's a BEHR oil cooler off a W123 or W116 turbo diesel. Part # is 1161801765

Used on 300D and CD turbo W123 cars and 300SD W116 (and I think W126 too)

can you see the retail price as well, jim?

and rasser, how about those mounts?

W123 rings a bell....  think that´s the one!


I made two brackets that attaches to the top of my gearbox mount and the cooler - Nothing fancy, but a nice and solid construction. It´s bolted in for easy removal.
You can actually see it if you look closer at the pictures  ;)

List price from MBZ is $570.00 USD

Monkiboy: Forgot one thing - the cooler is mounted a bit higher than the front sparewheel housing (don´t know the correct word, but you know the front part of the body that carries the spare wheel. My guess is that the cooler is maybe 5cm higher than this location. Add to this that the spare wheel housing is IN FRONT of the front wheels, and the oilcooler is BETWEEN the rear wheels. No problems on an "ass up" cal-looker  ;D

WOOOW, that´s insane.

This weekend I saw them at VW show, new in the box for 175euros - which is roughly what I payed a few years ago!

I pay something like 150€ for mine in a auto parts shop. That's not a genuine Mercedez Benz.

Hmmm interesting you mention that because I was just thinking about this again  ::) and the "Front valance" spare wheel area probably comes into this on VERY low cars  - I read somewhere in an hotrod magazine that NOTHING should ever be mounted below the "Scrub line" which is the imaginary rectangle/line drawn between the lowest point of the 4 road wheels,

Hmmmm another reason NOT to go too low at the front guys  ;) :)

Rasser-were you at the Maikäfertreffen in Hannover last weekend?

live report from the mercedes dealer here.
that cooler costs 221 EUR excluding VAT. more expensive than my cagero cooler, so i don't feel too bad after all  ;)

Yes. We had fun!
This was my first time at hannover, and we will be back next year. Mels diner were so cool;)

this is mine alu oil cooler from CSP. Racimex brand.

I´m gonna put it near the gearbox behind the left swingaxle.

nice! is that thermostat from csp as well? i still need one...

Yes the thermostat is from CSP too. it should be preset at 80°C and they have two versions - this one with push on 1/2" hose rigid fittings and a more expensive version with threaded holes for whatewer fittings you like..

I´m running the thermostat with threaded holes from CSP. Works really well, and opens up at 80-85 degrees. But you have to make your own brackets for the threaded version - the other one has a bracket allready attached.
I have also used the one with push on ½" hose fittings on another engine, and it also worked good - actually I think they are both RACIMEX.

Banjos are a REAL bad idea for oil systems. Those look like awfully small fittings. Like 10mm?

You should use the largest 90 degree fittings you can fit because they are relatively small in diameter on the inside.

Michael

That´s what I specifically asked for before ordering and was told that no restriction. I inspected the banjo bolt inside out and they seem to be free flowing..anyway its diameter is not smaller then a diameter of oil passage in the case.

hello rasser
your oilcooler works good for sure, but what about a traffic holdup? i think if the car stand still and the engine is runing the exhaust will heat your oilcooler. i have the same oilcooler and did it the same way like you years ago (1998 or 1999), like every year i made my trip to budel and like every year we started to late it was a sunny and hot day. so like every year there was a big traffic holdup 1.5 ours for around 1 km and the engine was so hot....

my new setup:
hidden oilcooler and airboxes, now the oilcooler is away from the exhaust.

dirk

Was yours also a type4 ?    - because the type4 engine cools so much better.


I have just been to 1. mai  Kaefer treffen in Hannover, and we ended up in a "traffic holdup"  just before the Elb tunnel in Hamburg for about ½-1 hour  - no problems (80-85 degree oil temp).

hello rasser,

my engine is a typ 1 without dog house cooler, don't know much about typ 4 engines but they work ;D ;D ;D.

really nice car!!!

dirk

Hey guys - just so you know its me, I just showed this thread to my dad and he agrees with me and to quote him "Why on earth would you put an OIL COOLER down there???"

 ;) :)

because it needs to be fed by air, and it would look dumb in front of the car, imho. It's extremely effective!!!

just playing dude - anyway if it needs air then put it on the roof  :D :)

I know "Why" you and others have done it buddy and yes I do agree you get maximum airflow BUT it just scares the hell out of me  :)

yeah, that's what Sarge is gonna do.
 :o

 ;D

my location of a Racimex alu oil cooler

(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_nKjezkastzY/S7jioWHHZpI/AAAAAAAAEJI/M7mLNr45p40/s800/04042010058.jpg)

Havent been on this post for a while. How about useing two cooler's with there own fan, But one is on all the time for cooling and the other, Turned on when needed in winter to blow warm air ducted, for inside car ?

I just got through installing a single fan Setrab oil cooler above the tranny on the driver side of my 69' I wish I could have monted it on/near the torsion tube, but it's IRS, no room. I was running well over 220*, but adding the cooler and set my timing @28*, was 32*, helped alot. So far runs @ 187*.

Ted

does andyone know whith fitting to use for the EMPI Oil Cooler ? (LONG)
Its not metric, or ?

thank you

Its probably a "tapered" type pipe fitting  :)

You asked me the same question thru the Lounge/mail as well. 1/2"NPT to -8 or whatever - you want to plumb your system.

Danny, something like this ?

Hi Guys.
Ive been running a front mounted cooler for years and I went that route as obviously being at the front its naturally in the air flow.
Engine is a 2276 with FK87 running 10.5 CR. The oil system consists of a Deep sump, 30mm Pump, Oil thermostat and remote filter. No dog house cooler.  1/2 inch lines running either side of the car and a front mounted Porsche cooler just under the front bumper. The cooler fits directly between the bumper irons so mounting was easy. I had an aluminium mesh in front of the cooler to protect from stones etc.
Running temps never exceeded 180C even sitting in traffic or driving at motorway speeds.
For me this setup will and always will be the only way to go for a hypo motor.
The extra oil in the system always helps and the long oils lines never gave me a pressure loss at idle when hot.
One thing though.. I'm running a Porsche upright cooling system which as we know helps a lot. But saying that the fan speed was reduced by using a berg power equaliser pulley, and a high 3.88 final drive ratio.
More oil, and more air is the way to go for me.
Ill dig out some pics.
Cheers. TB

Hi Tony, I would be keen to see some pics, Thanks David.

You mean 180F. Correct ?

Harry well spotted ! Yes 180f :)

David I'll dig some pics out and scan em in ! Hope quality is ok !
Cheers TB

I have chosen this setrab 490x136x40 oilcooler, it will be mounted to the mendeola bulkhead. It isnt straight at the airstream, so i may need to make ducting to the oilcooler or somekind clean spoiler.

(http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/4296/setrabthinline.jpg)

same oil cooler has in 300d and 300td little big but in a quadratic form in the Mercedes E-class 300 turbo diesel engine om 606

We were considering using a water/oil cooler from a Porsche and adding a small rad in the front. Like this one: http://www.autopartsnetwork.com/w0133-1811769-engine-oil-cooler-genuine/ad8go_s4ilgpv

The advantage is that if the rad got damaged, there would be no oil down.